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George_Waters
Guest
Are you saying Islam was used as an excuse to murder this man?
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inJESUS
Guest
as expected…the muslims cannot get over the crusades and inquisitions. We live in the 21 century, and they want to drag us back to Jahiliya time. A Christian is someone who follows Jesus, and someone whose fruit is what Jesus wants. The message of Jesus is very clear about killing, or forcing, or having slaves, or subduing others. Islam, the supposed last message of allah with clear arabic so that all can understand turned out to be misunderstood by millions and the “clear” message of love and peace very ambiguous. We do not care about quran , mohammad or his “spirit”; we do not care about the holy “moral” law mohammad gave. We have our Lord Jesus, and we do not need someone like mohammad to talk about morality. If muslims were real peacful people, and if the peace message of the quran were indeed clear, then the world would be much better. Usually truth is unequivocal, but with mohammad it is not clear and allah knows best. Just live and leave us kafir live with freedom of practicing our “pauline religion”. All you “good” muslims who understand the “real” islam, please do gather and ask you sheiks to issue a fatwa to stop killing non-moslems, apostates and let other faiths be applied in islamic countries, like islam is in USA and Europe.
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Ortho
Guest
George Waters:
Yes. Corruption is universal and will use whatever is convenient.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Indeed. Hitler was no Christian. Hitler was a deist pagan.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
I watched a documentary about the Hajj, in which a white western woman had to get permission from her Catholic son in order to go on Hajj (not sure if this is Islamic law, or just Saudi secular law). When the woman arrived, the authorities questioned her and “searched” her for hours… claiming she was a non-Muslim trying to enter Makkah apparently because she was white & American (she was originally a Protestant, not Catholic if that makes a difference). The camera crew was also following around a black South African Zulu who converted to Islam, he experienced much racism as well. Apparently when you go on Hajj, they give you a “meet up” of people from your own country if you are traveling alone. Other Arab Muslims harassed him and beat him for being black when he asked them where the meet up place was & claimed he wasn’t a Muslim & the Saudi religious police (what is the term) almost arrested him…
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MugenOne
Guest
Semper Fi,
Amen! Yeah, that black African was so naive and thought that Arab Muslims would greet with opened arms. Man, he was wrong. He got kicked out of a tent occuppied by some Arabs when he’s trying to pray in there or something. The Zulu dude was like, “aren’t we all Muslims?” Yeah, you are Muslims, alright! That’s religion of one. Everybody prostrates at the same time. Man, it is so great to see everybody holding hands and dancing in the streets and screaming death to the infidel. In reality, every Muslims is segregated by “races.” I hope these people who had a horrible experienced during the most harmonius religious pilgrimage on earth will think twice about their new founded religion.
Arab racist feeling toward the black African or other groups of people is nothing new. It’s not a generalization, but the evidents are so overwhelmed.
Semper Fi:
Amen! Yeah, that black African was so naive and thought that Arab Muslims would greet with opened arms. Man, he was wrong. He got kicked out of a tent occuppied by some Arabs when he’s trying to pray in there or something. The Zulu dude was like, “aren’t we all Muslims?” Yeah, you are Muslims, alright! That’s religion of one. Everybody prostrates at the same time. Man, it is so great to see everybody holding hands and dancing in the streets and screaming death to the infidel. In reality, every Muslims is segregated by “races.” I hope these people who had a horrible experienced during the most harmonius religious pilgrimage on earth will think twice about their new founded religion.
Arab racist feeling toward the black African or other groups of people is nothing new. It’s not a generalization, but the evidents are so overwhelmed.
Semper Fi:
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discipleofJesus
Guest
lol!
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AJV
Guest
Semper Fi:
MugenOne:
The Saudis have strict rules restricting the entry of non-Muslims into the two holy cities of Makkah and Medina and so may be overtly suspicious of those asking their way around or ‘white’ people (usually Christians, you know
the whole division into spheres thing that I explined in #206 ) trying to evangelise Muslims.
Sorry, but I don’t see how this affects religious tolerance in Islam. I know some Arabs treat their fellow Muslims badly, really badly, but that does not invalidate the religion. Unless you can provide a verse from the Koran or a particular hadith authorising them to act in this way.
The Saudis have strict rules restricting the entry of non-Muslims into the two holy cities of Makkah and Medina and so may be overtly suspicious of those asking their way around or ‘white’ people (usually Christians, you know
the whole division into spheres thing that I explined in #206 ) trying to evangelise Muslims.
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Booklover,
TheProphet, you are confusing the imperialist Europeans with Catholicism. It is true that the Portuguese came with Catholicism and attempted to force it OUT OF POLITCAL NECESSITY on the Indian (Asian indians not Native Americans ). But, as an Indian (Asian) Christian, I can tell you that there are authentic expressions of native Christianity. There were Christians in India long before the Portuguese AND they preserved native culture.
And don’t only take example of India. Not only India. American, Australian, New Zealand, Africa. And gladly let’s make a statistical summary. And if you can, refute what I stated, that Catholic history is bloodier than Moslems.
George,
You keep saying the same thing over and over like you are trying to conveiance yourself! You want to argue Catholic are to blame for everything while cowardly refusing to accept any crimes and sins committed by Muslims.
Ad Hominem will not gain you anything. Quote any of my post which showed I refuse accepting any crimes from Moslems. But in comparison, I said the crimes made by Catholics are a lot more, for around 2000 years of its history. If you failed to show that I ever refused to admit any crimes commited by moslems, than I would call you a liar, how’s that?Booklover,
That’s exactly it, George! You’d think from what he says that Africa and Asia are completely devoid of people and that there are no Native Americans left in this country! He blames Catholics for things done by others too, as I believe you had already pointed out in another post.
So you may start to show me that those Spaniards were not Catholics. The people who burned the “witches” were not Catholics. The Portuguese, and all. Talking is cheap. And those who murdered moslems and jews during crusades were not Catholics. Proof, please.
AJV,TheProphet, you are confusing the imperialist Europeans with Catholicism. It is true that the Portuguese came with Catholicism and attempted to force it OUT OF POLITCAL NECESSITY on the Indian (Asian indians not Native Americans ). But, as an Indian (Asian) Christian, I can tell you that there are authentic expressions of native Christianity. There were Christians in India long before the Portuguese AND they preserved native culture.
If we wish to take the examples of the Spanish/Portuguese who acted politically, then why not of the muslim Mugals who destroyed Hindu temples and Hindu culture in India? Or Aurangzeb who pursued a policy of de-hinduization of the nation by strict adherence to Sharia, reinstating jizyah and trampling over Hindus with elephants?
Ok, now let us make a comparison: How many hundred years have those greedy Catholics imperialized Asian, African and American, together with the fellow Christian Frenchs and England?And don’t only take example of India. Not only India. American, Australian, New Zealand, Africa. And gladly let’s make a statistical summary. And if you can, refute what I stated, that Catholic history is bloodier than Moslems.
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George_Waters
Guest
You are accusing me of Ad Hominem? That’s funny.
You’re the one who accused me of killing Indians, remember?! 
How about this, YOU claimed Catholicism is “bloodier” than Islam. Now YOU need to prove it! Simply stating it is so does not make it so and for every example you have offered an equal example has been applied to Islam, which you conveniently ignore.You also continue to bring up events hundreds of years old while ignoring modern history. Sure they are part of history, however if we were to use your reasoning I could simple claim all Arabs worship idols… because they used to!
“And those who murdered moslems and jews during crusades (Hundreds of years ago) were not Catholics. Proof, please.”
And those who murder Christians, Jews and Muslims in suicide bombings days ago are not Muslim. Proof please.
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Ortho
Guest
Semper Fi:
But Germany was a Christian country. Europe was the heart of Christianity, yet these Christians slaughtered each other in numbers that make the Muslims look like pikers.
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Ortho
Guest
Semper Fi:
Only Muslims are allowed in the province of Mecca and Medina, so I have never been there. However, the Haj is an event that is very unique because millions of people are all trying to do the same thing at the same time in a very limited area. The Haj can only be completed during a particular week in the lunar year. That’s why it is such a management challenge.
Most people arrive for Haj in a group. That’s how the Saudis set it up. The Haj visas are granted by the Saudi embassy in the home country, and each country has a quota. The groups are assigned to hotels, and moved through the Haj cycle as a group in order to maintain an even flow of people. People who do not arrive with a group are subjected to greater scrutiny.
Remember, in the Eighties a group of Iranians tried to take over the Grand mosque during Haj and a pitched battle between them and the Saudi army left many dead. So, lone Hajis are more interesting to authorities, especially in the era of lone bombers.
I’m not familiar with the people shown in the documentary, but I am very familiar with many white women who lived in Saudi who did not encounter the treatment described. I am also familiar with American blacks who had no trouble.
Religious police are called Muttawa. They have been on the lookout for non-Muslims at the Haj ever since Richard Francis Burton slipped in and decribed it for the western world. Each year there are people who make the attempt.
Only Muslims are allowed in the province of Mecca and Medina, so I have never been there. However, the Haj is an event that is very unique because millions of people are all trying to do the same thing at the same time in a very limited area. The Haj can only be completed during a particular week in the lunar year. That’s why it is such a management challenge.
Most people arrive for Haj in a group. That’s how the Saudis set it up. The Haj visas are granted by the Saudi embassy in the home country, and each country has a quota. The groups are assigned to hotels, and moved through the Haj cycle as a group in order to maintain an even flow of people. People who do not arrive with a group are subjected to greater scrutiny.
Remember, in the Eighties a group of Iranians tried to take over the Grand mosque during Haj and a pitched battle between them and the Saudi army left many dead. So, lone Hajis are more interesting to authorities, especially in the era of lone bombers.
I’m not familiar with the people shown in the documentary, but I am very familiar with many white women who lived in Saudi who did not encounter the treatment described. I am also familiar with American blacks who had no trouble.
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Ortho
Guest
This reminds me a bit of the kids from Catholic high schools in Chicago beating up blacks. I wonder if those blacks thought twice about Catholicism? Catholics in different parishes around the city were also very active in trying to keep blacks from moving into the parish. They didn’t want to let the parish be “broken.”
So, what do stories tell us about either Islam of Cartholicism?
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Ortho
Guest
George Waters:
The Catholic Church places great emphasis on “history and tradition.” Those traditions are fair game since they are used as justification for current authority and validity.You are accusing me of Ad Hominem? That’s funny.
You also continue to bring up events hundreds of years old while ignoring modern history. Sure they are part of history, however if we were to use your reasoning I could simple claim all Arabs worship idols… because they used to!
“And those who murdered moslems and jews during crusades (Hundreds of years ago) were not Catholics. Proof, please.”
And those who murder Christians, Jews and Muslims in suicide bombings days ago are not Muslim. Proof please.
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discipleofJesus
Guest
Muslims are commanded to fight (offensively, and not only defensively) all non-Muslims in the world until they convert, pay Jizya in humiliation or die.
“**Fight ** those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura 9:29
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”
**question: ** Is this not a clear command to fight non-Muslims until they convert to Islam?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
“The Verse:–“You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.” means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.”
The verse it is referring to is Sura 3:110 in the Quran
**question: ** Does this not imply that Muslims are commanded to force non-Muslims to convert to Islam?
I am seeing the same pattern here as I saw in ‘The Role of Women in Islam’ forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93175 thread
So i will repeat what I said there.
why do so many people think it is legitimate to compare Christians doing something **against what the Bible teaches ** to Muslims doing something in accordance with what the Quran teaches?
It is obviously wrong to compare like this!
Islam also commands that if anyone leaves Islam, he/she is to be killed
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’** I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’**
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”
Islam is not a peaceful religion.
Christianity is a peaceful religion.
“**Fight ** those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura 9:29
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”
**question: ** Is this not a clear command to fight non-Muslims until they convert to Islam?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
“The Verse:–“You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.” means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.”
The verse it is referring to is Sura 3:110 in the Quran
**question: ** Does this not imply that Muslims are commanded to force non-Muslims to convert to Islam?
I am seeing the same pattern here as I saw in ‘The Role of Women in Islam’ forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93175 thread
So i will repeat what I said there.
why do so many people think it is legitimate to compare Christians doing something **against what the Bible teaches ** to Muslims doing something in accordance with what the Quran teaches?
It is obviously wrong to compare like this!
Islam also commands that if anyone leaves Islam, he/she is to be killed
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’** I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’**
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”
Islam is not a peaceful religion.
Christianity is a peaceful religion.
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George_Waters
Guest
Ortho,
Traditions are fair game. But it is history that some of our friends here keep bring up, not traditions. Just read TheProphets post. If the actions of Catholics during the crusades are going to be used to judge Catholicism, than the same measure should be used for Islam. Anything else is a double standard.
I have been told that we should not judge Islam on the actions of bad members of that religion, past or present, and I am told we can not, for example use Iran (the only Islamic theocratic republic) to judge Islam, I am told I should only use the “true” teachings of the Quran. If this is to be the case than the same must be applied to Catholicism. If Muslims wish to attack us based on history and on the claim that the Bible is “falsified” than it is they who cried havoc and the same will be used to judge their faith.
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
This is completely correct, and the policy of the board…
This is the GUILT BY ASSOCIATION FALLACY. And we will attempt to avoid fallacies in discussions here.
Thank you-
Rachel
Just because the majority of bad people doing bad incidents are of a certain race, creed, or color- does NOT make evidence for a case against that race, creed, or color.
This is the GUILT BY ASSOCIATION FALLACY. And we will attempt to avoid fallacies in discussions here.
Thank you-
Rachel
O
Ortho
Guest
George Waters:
I also note people have said we can’t use the actions of Catholic priests and bishops to judge Catholicism.
However, while I say this is all fair game, I have sufficient respect for myself and my own intellectual integrity that I recognize the silliness of the exchange and see it as recreation. I reserve time for serious study that doesn’t include trying to make points against the other guy.
All history is fair game. Everyone’s history. And we should also note the justifications given by each group for its sordid past and make sure we allow those same justifications for the other guy’s sordid actions.
I also note people have said we can’t use the actions of Catholic priests and bishops to judge Catholicism.
However, while I say this is all fair game, I have sufficient respect for myself and my own intellectual integrity that I recognize the silliness of the exchange and see it as recreation. I reserve time for serious study that doesn’t include trying to make points against the other guy.
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George_Waters
Guest
Well said!
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
George,
You are accusing me of Ad Hominem? That’s funny. You’re the one who accused me of killing Indians, remember?! How about this, YOU claimed Catholicism is “bloodier” than Islam. Now YOU need to prove it! Simply stating it is so does not make it so and for every example you have offered an equal example has been applied to Islam, which you conveniently ignore.
You also continue to bring up events hundreds of years old while ignoring modern history. Sure they are part of history, however if we were to use your reasoning I could simple claim all Arabs worship idols… because they used to!
“And those who murdered moslems and jews during crusades (Hundreds of years ago) were not Catholics. Proof, please.”
And those who murder Christians, Jews and Muslims in suicide bombings days ago are not Muslim. Proof please.
so you couldn’t bring up any PROOF that I refused to admit any wrongdoings by moslems. Be careful or your nose can grow like Pinocchio.
I claim that HISTORY WISE, Catholicism is bloodier than Islam. I have mentioned to you some history accounts. What else do you need? Now refuse what I said, if you can.
Huh, you refuse to see what is clear and you even say things that is not clear. Arabs are pagan? If so then all men are animism or dinamism. End of stories. Human beings evolve, but the process is slow and everlasting. And beside, the Nazi Thing is not even some hundred years old. I just show HOW the pattern of bloody history keeps returning in Catholicism. And I never refuse to admit that moslems too have their share of bloody history, but in comparison, HISTORY WISE, Catholicism shed more blood from its birth.
And since you brought recent history, let’s continue it:
you said:
“And those who murder Christians, Jews and Muslims in suicide bombings days ago are not Muslim. Proof please.”
And I said, proof that all those greedy capitalists who imperialize the world economy are not Catholics and Christians. Proof that those soldiers who dropped bomb to kill hundreds, or thousands civilians are not Catholics and Christians.
How is that?
George,
You are accusing me of Ad Hominem? That’s funny. You’re the one who accused me of killing Indians, remember?! How about this, YOU claimed Catholicism is “bloodier” than Islam. Now YOU need to prove it! Simply stating it is so does not make it so and for every example you have offered an equal example has been applied to Islam, which you conveniently ignore.
You also continue to bring up events hundreds of years old while ignoring modern history. Sure they are part of history, however if we were to use your reasoning I could simple claim all Arabs worship idols… because they used to!
“And those who murdered moslems and jews during crusades (Hundreds of years ago) were not Catholics. Proof, please.”
And those who murder Christians, Jews and Muslims in suicide bombings days ago are not Muslim. Proof please.
so you couldn’t bring up any PROOF that I refused to admit any wrongdoings by moslems. Be careful or your nose can grow like Pinocchio.
I claim that HISTORY WISE, Catholicism is bloodier than Islam. I have mentioned to you some history accounts. What else do you need? Now refuse what I said, if you can.
Huh, you refuse to see what is clear and you even say things that is not clear. Arabs are pagan? If so then all men are animism or dinamism. End of stories. Human beings evolve, but the process is slow and everlasting. And beside, the Nazi Thing is not even some hundred years old. I just show HOW the pattern of bloody history keeps returning in Catholicism. And I never refuse to admit that moslems too have their share of bloody history, but in comparison, HISTORY WISE, Catholicism shed more blood from its birth.
And since you brought recent history, let’s continue it:
you said:
“And those who murder Christians, Jews and Muslims in suicide bombings days ago are not Muslim. Proof please.”
And I said, proof that all those greedy capitalists who imperialize the world economy are not Catholics and Christians. Proof that those soldiers who dropped bomb to kill hundreds, or thousands civilians are not Catholics and Christians.
How is that?
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