Islam Sword and Genocides

[ralphinal]

What is peace? Is it the absence of war? Is it a time for personal, intellectual and artistic growth allowed for by being untouched by conflict? Is it staying in a state of calm because you know, deep inside that you are united with Christ and though the wolf howls and the storm rages all around you, no harm will come to you.

Under which of these is Islam peaceful?

 

[morning_star777]

islam spread with sword.violence is it’s root.many verses of quran ordered muslims to slay pagan where ever they found&taking tribute from christians or jews.look at the battle of badr,pagans didn’t attack 1st.they bought some weapon&was going to mecca.then muhammad went to loot them then pagans sent the force of 1000 ppl to prevent muslim attack.so?can you blame the pagans if they want the safety of their property?actually islam were attacker

 

[planten]

“Peace” to a Muslim does not mean the same that it does to us, to them, peace will be achieved when all infidels are either converted, forced into submission and humiliated or killed!

Vickie

**That is a false claim. There is no such thing. But it could be said like that about christianity. And the Queen bloody Mary is still in the history. Also the hordes of Kaisar, teh christian king of Rome were for what purpose. They were not for any love affair. They were to crush the young Muslim state. But they failed miserably to defeat the truth and true forces.

That is proof enough that Muhammad was right. Right prevails over wrong. The christians should remember how hoplessly Jesus went away in a hurry. He could not face his enemies any more. So after coming to senses in the tomb, he came out and met only his close friends secretly and then disappeared very quickly, leaving his followers in disarray, in hiding and in persecution.

That was not the case with Islam. Islam is a very peaceful religion. it allows every one to practice their faith peacefully. Doe sthe christianity have any principle such as that. If there is then please show it from the four gospels.

**

 

[Eden]

**That was a false alarm, verse 8:39. Please see below:

[8:37] That Allah may separate the bad from the good, and put the bad, one upon another, and heap them up altogether, and then cast them into Hell. These indeed are the losers.

[8:38] Say to those who are Kaafir( violent non believers), **if they desist, that which is past will be forgiven them; and if they return to their misdeeds, then verily the example of the former peoples has already gone before them.

[8:39] And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
[8:40] And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Protector - an excellent protector and an excellent Helper!

Please see the above verses and note that the verse 8:39 is about the violent disbelivers who are the enemies of the truth and peace. It is not told to fight any peaceful disbeliever. It is the order to fight the Kaafirs i.e. the utter antagonists and violent disbelievers who are bent on enmity of Islam. They persecute and oppress the peaceful people. So it is necessary to fight against them to route out the evil in the society.

The word refers to ALL non-Muslims and it says to fight until “religion is wholly to allah”. This means Muslims must fight non-Muslims until all resisters are killed or converted so that the world is united in faith in Islam “for allah”. This just goes back to the Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam distinction in Islam. The world is divided into the Sphere of War (Dar al-Harb) which is the non-Muslim world and the Sphere of Submission/Islam (Dar al-Islam) which is the Muslim world. In Muslim teaching, Muslims must fight until the entire world is Dar al-Islam. So, this is why Islam is not and can never live peacefully with people of other faiths. Muhammad says to talk about peace and be peaceful, until Muslims have the power to take over. That’s the only time for peace.

This article discusses how Muslims believe they must wage war until the whole world is brought into submission to allah:

islamreview.com/articles/humanrights.shtml

This video discusses how allah said to ask for peace, only if you are weaker:

youtube.com/watch?v=mxp3JZnutPo

The speaker in the video is a native Arabic speaker originally from Saudi Arabia and also an ex-Muslim imam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Please give me an example of an empire that spread by never fighting with its neighbors, never imposing its religion on the population, and never exterminating the native population.

I mean, look at the Americans. They spread to the West but what happened to the natives?

Islam itself isn’t an empire, and there were several “Muslim” empires in existence. In India, it was the Mughals. Just because they happened to be Muslim, you cannot say that they were the sole representatives of Islam.

Think of other historical empires, please. The Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Persian Empire, the British Empire…

 

[Eden]

Please give me an example of an empire that spread by never fighting with its neighbors, never imposing its religion on the population, and never exterminating the native population.

I mean, look at the Americans. They spread to the West but what happened to the natives?

Islam itself isn’t an empire, and there were several “Muslim” empires in existence. In India, it was the Mughals. Just because they happened to be Muslim, you cannot say that they were the sole representatives of Islam.

Think of other historical empires, please. The Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Persian Empire, the British Empire…

Thank you for admitting that Islam was spread by the sword and is *not *a religion of peace.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thank you for admitting that Islam was spread by the sword and is *not *a religion of peace.

I admitted nothing of the sort.

Territorial expansion and religion are not the same thing.

 

[Eden]

I admitted nothing of the sort.

Territorial expansion and religion are not the same thing.

Of course you admitted that Islam was spread by violence. Otherwise, you would have had no reason to justify the spread of Islam through Muslim Empires, as you did above.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Of course you admitted that Islam was spread by violence. Otherwise, you would have had no reason to justify the spread of Islam through Muslim Empires, as you did above.

If Islam–the religion–were forced on India, then how come India isn’t Muslim? It’s still Hindu, Buddhist, etc, despite being ruled by “Muslims” for centuries.

But you failed to show me how any other “empire” spread “peacefully.”

The Babylonians took the Jews captive, didn’t they? Early in the history of Islam the Persians fought the Romans–why?

You need to understand that territorial expansion is not religion. Religion cannot be forced.

 

[Eden]

If Islam–the religion–were forced on India, then how come India isn’t Muslim? It’s still Hindu, Buddhist, etc, despite being ruled by “Muslims” for centuries.

But you failed to show me how any other “empire” spread “peacefully.”

The Babylonians took the Jews captive, didn’t they? Early in the history of Islam the Persians fought the Romans–why?

You need to understand that territorial expansion is not religion. Religion cannot be forced.

This thread is about how Islam spread violently. You certainly don’t prove that Islam is superior and the true faith by saying “other people were violent, too”!

Muslim genocide of Hindus in India:

danielpipes.org/comments/29320

 

[Sister_Amy]

This thread is about how Islam spread violently. You certainly don’t prove that Islam is superior and the true faith by saying “other people were violent, too”!

Muslim genocide of Hindus in India:

danielpipes.org/comments/29320

That’s not what I was trying to prove.

What I was saying is that territorial expansion tends to be violent. Do you disagree?

 

[Eden]

“The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. **Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. **Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated. And so on.”

But some of the Hindus survived, in part because they were a source of revenue with the non-Muslim punishment tax called jizya:

“Many Muslim rulers preferred to enjoy the revenue from stable and prosperous kingdoms, and were content to extract the jizya tax, and to limit their conversion effort to material incentives and support to the missionary campaigns of sufis and mullahs (in fact, for less zealous rulers, the jizya was an incentive to discourage conversions, as these would mean a loss of revenue).”

danielpipes.org/comments/29320

Compare this with the conversion of the Irish from paganism by St. Patrick:

Patrick set up his see at Armagh in approximately 435. Many wonderful stories are told about this period in his life, including the legend that he drove the snakes from Ireland, that he described the Trinity by referring to the shamrock, that his preaching was supported with frequent glorious miracles, and he was single-handedly responsible for the conversion of the entire country. But the Patrick of historical record is just as compelling as the Patrick of legend. Two brief documents, Patrick’s Confession and his “Letter to Coroticus,” generally accepted by scholars as authentic, are the basis for what we know of the historical Patrick. He was the first real organizer of the Catholic Church in Ireland by dividing the church into territorial sees; he raised the standard of biblical scholarship and especially encouraged the wider teaching of Latin; he travelled throughout the country preaching, teaching, building churches, and opening schools and monasteries; and he converted countless people of all social classes, and inspired many to become monks and nuns. He not only shared God with the people of Ireland, but also grew in his understanding of God through them.

allsaintsbrookline.org/celtic/saints/patrick.html

 

[Eden]

That’s not what I was trying to prove.

What I was saying is that territorial expansion tends to be violent. Do you disagree?

Again, you justify the violence of Islam by trying to divert from the topic at hand, which is that Islam is not peaceful and was spread through violence.

We only need to look at the New Testament versus the Quran to know whose violence is supported by their book and whose is not.

 

[Eden]

**On the (peaceful) conversion of England:
**
In this island landed the servant of our Lord, Augustine, and his companions, being, as is reported, nearly forty men. They had, by order of the blessed Pope Gregory, brought interpreters of the nation of the Franks, and sending to Ethelbert, signified that they were come from Rome, and brought a joyful message, which most undoubtedly assured to all that took advantage of it everlasting joys in heaven, and a kingdom that would never end with the living and true God…

…When Augustine had sat down, pursuant to the king’s commands, and preached to him and his attendants there present the word of life, the king answered thus: " Your words and promises are very fair, but they are new to us and of uncertain import, and I cannot approve of them so far as to forsake that which I have so long followed with the whole English nation. But because you are come from far into my kingdom, and, as I conceive, are desirous to impart to us those things which you believe to be true and most beneficial, we will not molest you, but give you favorable entertainment and take care to supply you with the necessary sustenance; nor do we forbid you to preach and gain as many as you can to your religion…"

…As soon as they entered the dwelling place assigned them, they began to imitate the course of life practiced in the primitive church : applying themselves to** frequent prayer, watching, and fasting; preaching the word of life to as many as they could**; despising all worldly things, as not belonging to them; receiving only their necessary food from those they taught; living in all respects conformably to what -they prescribed to others, and being always disposed to suffer any adversity, and even to die for that truth which they preached. In short, several believed and were baptized, admiring the simplicity of their innocent life and the sweetness of their heavenly doctrine…

… There was on the east side of the city a church dedicated to St. Martin, built whilst the Romans were still in the island, wherein the queen, who, as has been said before, was a Christian, used to pray. In this they first began to meet, to sing, to pray, to say mass, to preach and to baptize, till the king, being converted to the faith (not by violence but after watching the example of their Christian living, of course), allowed them to preach openly and to build or repair churches in all places.

When he among the rest, induced by the unspotted life of these holy men and their delightful promises, which, by many miracles, they proved to be most certain, believed and was baptized, greater numbers began daily to flock together to hear the word and, forsaking their heathen rites. to associate themselves, by believing, to the unity of the Church of Christ.

britannia.com/history/docs/bedeconv.html

 

[thedavidwilson]

The Crusades, while prompted by Muslim aggression, often turned into excuses for enriching those leading them.

Actually most Crusaders mortgaged thier lands and lost money on the venture. You should read a book called a Concise History of the Crusades.

 

[thedavidwilson]

But some of the Hindus survived, in part because they were a source of revenue with the non-Muslim punishment tax called jizya:

Is this true? It thought the jizya was only applied to the People of the Book or Christians and Jews (Quran 9.29). Non-Christians/Jews (e.g. Hindus) were given the option to convert to Islam or die (Quran 9:5). That is why so many of them died.

 

[thedavidwilson]

That’s not what I was trying to prove.

What I was saying is that territorial expansion tends to be violent. Do you disagree?

Ok territorial expansion is violent. The teachings of islam commands its followers to pursue this violent expansion for the sake of islam. The teachings of Christianity tells its followers to spread the Word by loving your enemy. A little different.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ok territorial expansion is violent. The teachings of islam commands its followers to pursue this violent expansion for the sake of islam.

No they don’t.

 

[tomshaikh]

This thread is about how Islam spread violently. You certainly don’t prove that Islam is superior and the true faith by saying “other people were violent, too”!

Muslim genocide of Hindus in India:

danielpipes.org/comments/29320

Who Do You Prefered Muslims or Hindus. Think About Religion point of way. Thanks To Mughals And Others Muslims Conqueror. I Salute You All. And Thank to Allah I born in Muslim Country and My forefathers were Muslims or Converter May be from Hinduism. By the way my grandmother (maternalial site) is from Royal Family. She was a princess. I donot want to tell which emperor.:)

 

[Eden]

Who Do You Prefered Muslims or Hindus. Think About Religion point of way. Thanks To Mughals And Others Muslims Conqueror. I Salute You All. And Thank to Allah I born in Muslim Country and My forefathers were Muslims or Converter May be from Hinduism. By the way my grandmother (maternalial site) is from Royal Family. She was a princess. I donot want to tell which emperor.:)

I was speaking about Muslims and Hindus because Sister Amy brought up the subject of Islam in India, claiming that India would be entirely Muslim today if it were true that Islam spread by violence.