Islam Sword and Genocides

[inJESUS]

brothe inJESUS i know this muslim belive.but they belive that jesus will back and then will die.but planten claimed that jesus already died.cuz he told that.“sorry,no one is alive now”!so isn’t mean that planten belive about jesus’ death?

for the life of me, i don’t know what Planten believes in anymore…

As to Muhammad being alive, well they believe he can neither see nor hear them neither pray for them…maybe he is busy with other creatures…

 

[Angelos]

Sorry, no one is alive now. All have died,Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. They used to pray to God. Even Jesus did that. He had a God. All prophets have passed away. None is alive. But Muhammad is alive in spiritual sense. His message is alive and God replies to the prayers and requests of the followers of Muhammad. So we say that Prophet Muhammad is alive.

Let’s greet the superman of Mecca!

Very interesting assumption: Allah dies when his message is corrupted and lost after his prophets’ death. Nevertheless, Mohammad is better than Allah because his message (the Koran is accepted to be the word of Mohammad!) remains forever.

**
Any prophet whose message is dead is himself dead. By following that prophet one cannot communicate with God and God does not respond to the requests of his followers then that prophet may be considered as dead in all respects. But we say that they beloved of God and they live like all the martyrs.**

This also means that Mohammad’s god died several times until the revelation of the Koran because his message went dead along with his former prophets!

**
Who was the father of Jesus. it is a mystery. Perhaps you can explain it. As far as we know. Joseph the carpentar was officially known as the father of Jesus. And Jesus was the son of a woman, as per Quran. He was the son of Mary. So please take up the subject of the father of Jesus. God may be symbolically and spiritually called the father of every one. So there will be no specialty for Jesus alone.**

Who was Jesus’ father according to the Koran? When some Christians posed this question to Mohammad, he simply evaded them by threatening to invoke the imposition of a divine curse on liars. He was also afraid of that curse! Why would a righteous man telling the truth be afraid of the supposed curse???

Your Koran does not call God Jesus’ father even in a spiritual sense because it mistakenly associates the words “son” and “father” with sexuality!

 

[grandfather]

Sorry, no one is alive now. All have died,Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. y and spiritually called the father of every one. So there will be no specialty for Jesus alone.

My Muslim friends who are Sunnis, the majority of Muslims, told me that Muslims believe that Jesus was never crucified, never died, that someone who looked like Him was crucified, and that He is still alive. Was I misinformed on what Muslims believe in this regard?

Muslims also believe in giving birth to Jesus, Mary was a virgin. He had no biological earthly father. He received His human nature from her alone. His incarnation and birth were miraculous. Muslims also believe His life was full of miracles, giving sight to the blind, raising the dead, multiplying loaves and fish, calming storms, walking through walls, but they do not believe He prophesied His own death and resurrection.

That is according to what my Sunni friends told me. Do all Muslims or does your branch of Islam believe these things?

 

[grandfather]

“sorry,no one is alive now.all have died,abraham,moses,jesus and muhammad”.mr planten even jesus had died?but how if he didn’t die on a cross then i which way jesus died?will you explain pls?your quran claims that jesus raised to heaven by allah.its very confusing!

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tags around selected text.

 

[planten]

“sorry,no one is alive now.all have died,abraham,moses,jesus and muhammad”.mr planten even jesus had died?but how if he didn’t die on a cross then i which way jesus died?will you explain pls?your quran claims that jesus raised to heaven by allah.its very confusing!

**Not very confusing. Jesus was raised (in ranks) to heavens like all the other prohets of God. jesus is specially mentioned in the Quran about being raised towards Allah because his case was made doubtful by the Jews (and the christians). Doubtful because they all agreed that he died on the cross and so he was a cursed person. It is sure that a cursed person is far away from the blessings of God.

That is why Quran denied the death on the cross (and the curse too thereby) and mentioned that his return to Allah was with good marks. When we say that any one is raised to Allah, it means that only the soul is raised, not the body. Soul is raised in ranks.

Where went the body of Jesus, that should be explained by the christians. he was very much here on earth all his life.**

 

[Angelos]

Not very confusing. Jesus was raised (in ranks) to heavens like all the other prohets of God. jesus is specially mentioned in the Quran about being raised towards Allah because his case was made doubtful by the Jews (and the christians). Doubtful because they all agreed that he died on the cross and so he was a cursed person. It is sure that a cursed person is far away from the blessings of God.

**1)**Where is it written in the Koran that all prophets of Allah are raised to heavens?

**2)**Which Koran verse depicts Jesus’ assumption to Heavens as His being raised in ranks? (Surah 3:55 implies that Jesus was assumed to Allah Himself, refuting your alternative interpretation)

**3) **Where is it written in the Koran that Jesus’ assumption was a peculiar case because of Jews and Christians? (The Koran verses 3:55 and 4:156 state that Jesus was assumed to Heavens BEFORE Jews doubted about His death.)

4) Why does the Koran NOT say that Abraham was assumed to Heavens ( or raised in ranks) when his adversaries tried to burn him?

**
That is why Quran denied the death on the cross (and the curse too thereby) and mentioned that his return to Allah was with good marks. When we say that any one is raised to Allah, it means that only the soul is raised, not the body. Soul is raised in ranks.**

The denial of Jesus’ crucifixion in the Koran fails to save Jesus from the curse since the Koran claims that Jesus appeared to be crucified and murdered, which was crucial for Allah to deceive Jews. Because Allah made Jews regard Jesus as a crucified and cursed man through illusion, it is possible to assert that Allah actually WANTED Jews to consider Jesus a cursed man. It was only Allah that caused Jews both to depict Jesus as a cursed man and to doubt about Him.

Could you please show me the specific Koran verse that says Jesus was raised in ranks and that His assumption occurred without His body or corpse?

**
Where went the body of Jesus, that should be explained by the christians. he was very much here on earth all his life.**

Our faith in Jesus’ resurrection perfectly explains where Jesus’ body went. Since it is only the Islamic scripture that fails to give an account of Jesus’ passion (fake or real) and leaves Muslims in suspense about Jesus’ body, it is only Muslims’ responsibility to rebut Jesus’ resurrection and prove the Islamic claims in the Koran with the help of the supposed corpse.

 

[planten]

I thought the quran was completely from God alone. Was Muhammad God? What was Mohammed’s message? Is it in another book besides the quran; since all of the quran is from God right? Should muslims, then, be properly called Mohammedans?

**Quran is completely from God.Nothing in it from Muhammad. Muhammad is not a God. He is a messenger of God. His message is the Quran. There is no other message except the Quran and except the previous scriptures.

But Muhammad is a teacher too.He got the book (Quran). He can teach that book too. Without making any alterations in the original book, he can explain some of the things.That explanation is contained in his sayings i.e. hadith.

But even before his sayings, there is another more important source of Guidance for the Muslims. That is how Muhammad actually understood and practiced the Quran. That is called the Sunnah. That is more important than the Hadith. That is the practical translation/ interpretation of the orders (verses) of the Quran.

Muslims may not be called Muhammadens. That is because our religion is not based on a person or a place (like christianity). It is called Islam. That name is mentioned in the Quran. (There is no christianity or the name of Jesus religion in the bible).

God has named us as Muslims.It is mentioned in the Quran that the followers of Muhammad are named as Muslims. It is the will of Allah as He named the followers of other religions also as Muslims. So you could call yourself as Muslim too. Islam was the religion of all prophets.
**

 

[Sam_777]

But even before his sayings, there is another more important source of Guidance for the Muslims. That is how Muhammad actually understood and practiced the Quran. That is called the Sunnah. That is more important than the Hadith. That is the practical translation/ interpretation of the orders (verses) of the Quran.

I hope you know what you are talking about, Sunnah practices come from what is written in Hadithes, no one can practice anything which was not written in the Hadith books, else they would call that Bedaa.

 

[Sam_777]

My Muslim friends who are Sunnis, the majority of Muslims, told me that Muslims believe that Jesus was never crucified, never died, that someone who looked like Him was crucified, and that He is still alive. Was I misinformed on what Muslims believe in this regard?

No, that is right, here is the verse from Quran supporting that:
“That they said (in boast), “We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah”; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.[158] Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
(Quran 4:157-158)

Muslims also believe His life was full of miracles, giving sight to the blind, raising the dead, multiplying loaves and fish, calming storms, walking through walls

That is not quite right, there is no mentioning in Quran nor Hadiths about multiplying loaves and fish, calming storms, or walking through walls, however, here are the only miracles about Jesus as claimed by Quran:

• Speaking to the people in childhood and in maturity.
• Creating bird out of clay.
• Healing those born blind, and the lepers.
• Raising the dead.
• Declaring what people eat, and what they are storing in their homes.
  (Quran 3:49)
  (Quran 5:110)
  (Quran 3:46)

 

[Angelos]

Quran is completely from God.Nothing in it from Muhammad. Muhammad is not a God. He is a messenger of God. His message is the Quran. There is no other message except the Quran and except the previous scriptures.

This is in sharp contrast to your previous post in which you defined the Koran as the"everlasting message of Mohammad". If all the former revelations of God could not remain in their original form due to those messengers’ death until Mohammad’s time and if the supposed preservation of the Koran makes Mohammad “spiritually alive”, this means you believe Mohammad to be better than Allah. This is because you suggest that what makes the Koran the only original revelation is not Allah, but Mohammad’s character allegedly distinguishing him from the rest of the prophets before him.

**
Muslims may not be called Muhammadens. That is because our religion is not based on a person or a place (like christianity). It is called Islam. That name is mentioned in the Quran. (There is no christianity or the name of Jesus religion in the bible).**

It is only a LIE that Islam is not based on a person! Islam is essentially based on Mohammad, who manipulated the so-called revelation from God. Besides, the Koran brags about Islam’s being the religion of Abraham! Accordingly, “Ibraheemians” is the alternative name for Muslims.

**
God has named us as Muslims.It is mentioned in the Quran that the followers of Muhammad are named as Muslims. It is the will of Allah as He named the followers of other religions also as Muslims. So you could call yourself as Muslim too. Islam was the religion of all prophets.
**

Since the word Muslim is NEVER used in the Bible even in the sense of “faithful” or “believer”, it is impossible to prove the Islamic assertion that Islam was the religion of all prophets. According to our Scripture and other historical sources, neither Islam nor Muslim had been used to designate a certain religion or followers of a certain religion prior to Mohammad! In short, the word Islam is an innovation and fabrication. This is proven with the help of a verse in the Koran:

39:11-12. Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

 

[grandfather]

No, that is right, here is the verse from Quran supporting that:

"That they said (in boast), “We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah”; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.[158] Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

 

[inJESUS]

does someone else being crucified make sense? any Islamic interpretation about the crucifixion does not make sense. Some say He did not die, others say He died, some say He was not crucified, others say He was, some say someone else was crucified, others say no there was no crucifixion at all. Mass confusion.

Does this, as explained to me by Sunnis, conform to what most Muslims believe?

yes some believe the Quran is his only miracle, which is correct. Others quote the tradition sayin Muhammad performed many, but they are contradicting the Quran. Muhammad was no miracle performer.

 

[planten]

So Planten’s earlier post was wrong about what Muslim’s believe according to the Koran. The statement that Jesus is alive and Mohamed is dead is correct therefore. I was almost ready to unsubscribe to this thread. He makes no sense at all.

Jesus is dead and Muhammad is alive because the spiritual guidance is continued amongst the Muslims even today. The tree of the jesu guidance has dried up. You should present my post ditto to prove your point.

The significance of working of miracles, for Chrisitians, is not about creating astonishment or amazement. Jesus did essentially two things in His public ministry. He taught and He worked miracles. When the Jewish leaders did not accept what He taught, He told them that they should believe in Him, because of the witness of His miracles. They demonstrate that He has power over nature. Why is that important? He can make nature conform to His will, because He is above nature. He is a supernatural person.

The teachings presently found in bible are quite un-natural. So these cannot be from Jesus if was natural. To say that he was above nature is no use to mankind. He can’t be the leader, the teacher, the example for men.

When I asked my Sunni friends who were explaining Islam’s beliefs to me if Mohamed had miracles as part of his history, they said no. They said that Jesus worked miracles, because He lived in an age of miracles. That age had passed by the time of Mohamed and Mohamed lived in an age of poetry. The wonder that he produced was the Koran, which is the most beautiful poetry in existence. The proof of Mohamed’s claims to be a prophet is in the poetic beauty of the Koran.

** You must have been talking to some ignorat Muslim. The age of miracles had not passed. The miracles of Muhammad are even coming ture today… Quran is not a book of poetry. That was silly remark by some so-called Muslim**.

Does this, as explained to me by Sunnis, conform to what most Muslims believe?

No it does not conform.

Thank you for answering my earlier question, Sam. I was beginning to think it was impossible to have a logical discussion with Muslims. All I know about Islam I learned from Muslims. It is the very basics I suppose. We were able to have a reasonable discussion, but ran out of time.

** Sam will have good dialogue with you, we hope. Keep trying. Both of you together…**

 

[planten]

does someone else being crucified make sense? any Islamic interpretation about the crucifixion does not make sense. Some say He did not die, others say He died, some say He was not crucified, others say He was, some say someone else was crucified, others say no there was no crucifixion at all. Mass confusion.

**It was Jesus on the cross alright. Quran does not say that it was some one else on the cross. The Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross. The matter under discussion in that verse is the life and death of Jesus, not whether it was Jesus on the cross or some one else.

The life and death of Jesus is discussed and the Quran denies that Jesus was killed by any means. That includes death on the cross did not take place. Jesus was alive all the time. But after brought down from the cross, he appeared to be as a dead man.

There is no confusion at all. You ask any muslim of any sect “Did Jesus die on the cross?” He will tell you that Jesus did not die (a cursed death) on the cross. Allah saved him from that ignonimus death on the cross…**

yes some believe the Quran is his only miracle, which is correct. Others quote the tradition sayin Muhammad performed many, but they are contradicting the Quran. Muhammad was no miracle performer.

** Nor was Jesus a miracle maker according to the bible. He was asked for a sign by the people. But he abused those people and said that no sign shall be shown to that wicked generation except the sign of the prophet Jonas…

When a sign was being demanded then Jesus should have said that he had performed many miracles and That he was ready to show them many more miracles easily. But he did not say that, So what can we say about his miracles !**

 

[Delta2]

It was Jesus on the cross alright.

Yeah, it was Jesus, and as the other external evidences confirms :

All in here :

cfmin.wordpress.com/2007/08/02/wilkipedia-historicity-of-jesus/

**And by the cross all the world should be judged **

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John, 3-18

 

[Delta2]

It was Jesus on the cross alright.

By the way, the quran is clear

The Quran, chapter 4:157 says:
“They declared ‘We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the apostle of God’. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they had only his likeness.”

Not crucified, but was other in the place of Jesus

You are confused, a lot

 

[inJESUS]

the Quran says NEITHER crucified, NOR died. Both are denied

But after brought down from the cross, he appeared to be as a dead man.

yea and what did Allah achieve by making Jesus appear to be a dead man? to save Jesus from death yet making people think that He was dead?

** Nor was Jesus a miracle maker according to the bible. He was asked for a sign by the people. But he abused those people and said that no sign shall be shown to that wicked generation except the sign of the prophet Jonas…**

Brilliant. Doesn’t your book talk about His miracles?

 

[inJESUS]

will Jesus die 2 times according to you? in His lifetime and once He returns?

and Muhammad is alive

Muhammad is in his grave, he can neither see you nor hear you.

because the spiritual guidance is continued amongst the Muslims even today. The tree of the jesu guidance has dried up. You should present my post ditto to prove your point.

am sure the Egyptians, Christians and Muslims, saw the apparition of Virgin Mary in Zeitun, not of Aisha or Khadija.

[/QUOTE]

 

[inJESUS]

He can’t be the leader, the teacher, the example for men.

He said He is the teacher and the example. Insulting God again and again?

 

[inJESUS]

“Take my yoke upon you and learn of me,”

Luke 21
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

but Muslims decide to insult God by saying no His words are corrupt.