Islam Sword and Genocides

[Delta2]

Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Luke, 8-18

He is so confused, what he had before, was taken

 

[Angelos]

Jesus is dead and Muhammad is alive because the spiritual guidance is continued amongst the Muslims even today. The tree of the jesu guidance has dried up. You should present my post ditto to prove your point.

The Koran, the very scripture you claim to follow for guidance, rebuts your assertions:

Surah 5:47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein.

Allah asked Christians of Mohammad’s era to follow the Gospel for guidance even AFTER the so-called revelation of the Koran! You, dear planten, are obviously in error.

The teachings presently found in bible are quite un-natural. So these cannot be from Jesus if was natural. To say that he was above nature is no use to mankind. He can’t be the leader, the teacher, the example for men.

The teachings in the Bible cannot be from Jesus solely because YOU think they are unnatural? What kind of reasoning is this? How long have your personal values and judgments become evidence for the supposed failure of Biblical teachings

Besides, your personal theories and definitions are debunked by the Koran:

Surah 19:20-21 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste ? He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Surah 23:50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother a portent.

Surah 21:91. And she who was chaste, therefore We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples

Surah 57:27. Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him.

You must have been talking to some ignorat Muslim. The age of miracles had not passed. The miracles of Muhammad are even coming ture today.… Quran is not a book of poetry. That was silly remark by some so-called Muslim.

Stop condemning many Muslims to Hell and show me how Mohammad’s miracles are even coming true today? Did Mohammad begin to perform miracles after his death?(The Koran does not narrate any of his miracles during his ministry!)

 

[Angelos]

It was Jesus on the cross alright. Quran does not say that it was some one else on the cross. The Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross. The matter under discussion in that verse is the life and death of Jesus, not whether it was Jesus on the cross or some one else.

You must have a different Koran version that contains the detailed narrative of Jesus’ passion along with the denial of His death. All the Koran versions I have deny NOT ONLY Jesus’ death, BUT ALSO His crucifixion, designating the entire passion as an appearance/illusion.

The life and death of Jesus is discussed and the Quran denies that Jesus was killed by any means. That includes death on the cross did not take place. Jesus was alive all the time. But after brought down from the cross, he appeared to be as a dead man.

I hope you will finally answer my questions which you have ignored innumerable times until now:

Why did Jesus appear to be a dead man AFTER being brought down from the cross? Why could Allah not prevent Jews from nailing Jesus to the cross? Why did Allah fail to prevent Jesus from suffering on the cross? What was Allah’s point in making Jesus appear as a dead man AFTER being deposited from the cross?

There is no confusion at all. You ask any muslim of any sect “Did Jesus die on the cross?” He will tell you that Jesus did not die (a cursed death) on the cross. Allah saved him from that ignonimus death on the cross…

There IS confusion since the Koran fails to state the reasons underlying Jesus’ supposed salvation from death and the absolute necessity for His appearance as a dead man.

Nor was Jesus a miracle maker according to the bible. He was asked for a sign by the people. But he abused those people and said that no sign shall be shown to that wicked generation except the sign of the prophet Jonas…

When a sign was being demanded then Jesus should have said that he had performed many miracles and That he was ready to show them many more miracles easily. But he did not say that, So what can we say about his miracles !

I suggest you use your eyes while reading the Bible next time.

You are slandering Jesus and deliberately perverting our scripture when you ignore that Jesus refused to work miracles for people lacking faith. You do not want to understand the Biblical fact that Jesus was NOT a miracle machine or a robot that performed miracles upon everyone’s request since this fact suffices to rebut all your faulty allegations and misinterpretations.

 

[planten]

By the way, the quran is clear

The Quran, chapter 4:157 says:
“They declared ‘We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the apostle of God’. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they had only his likeness.”

Not crucified, but was other in the place of Jesus

You are confused, a lot

I admire you. You are a real christian. You love Jesus. I ask you "Do you believe that it was some one else on the cross and not Jesus?? Please reply clearly as per your belief. Thank you.

 

[swariffin]

I admire you. You are a real christian. You love Jesus. I ask you "Do you believe that it was some one else on the cross and not Jesus?? Please reply clearly as per your belief. Thank you.

Dear Planten,

My answer is “I really, really, really DO NOT believe that”. I hope I made myself as clear to you as you requested.

 

[planten]

the Quran says NEITHER crucified, NOR died. Both are denied

Please forget the Quran. You go by the bible. You believe that it was Jesus on the cross. I also believe it by my understanding of the Quran and I am sure that it Jesus there, no one els eon the cross. So let us not discuss this matter again. It does not suit you and you do not believe it. So forget it.

yea and what did Allah achieve by making Jesus appear to be a dead man? to save Jesus from death yet making people think that He was dead?

**Great achievment. God saved his beloved from the curse. and proved that Jesus was not cursed in any way. That is not a minor thing. Both the Jews and the christians were bent upon abusing the man of God by saying that he was cursed. That is not a minor blame, to call any one a cursed person.

That is why the Jews were anxious to kill Jesus on the cross. Jesus did not like it. He prayed to his God to avoid the cup. His prayer was accepted and he was saved. That is what the Quran is saying. You can believe the way you like.**

Brilliant. Doesn’t your book talk about His miracles?

**It does, about many miracles. About the miracles of Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. Quran is full of miracles and it is a great miracle itself. The Quran is the greatest miracle itself.

The miracles of Jesus are described in the Quran. And the saving of Jesus from the death on the cross is another miracle of the Quran. While you people had condemned that man of God by crucifixion (bad death).

In Quran Allah states " I and my messengers will surely by victorious (winners)". According to that also jesus should not die on the cross. According to that too, Jesus should be saved in his struggle against his enemies.
Try to read the Quran daily**.

 

[planten]

will Jesus die 2 times according to you? in His lifetime and once He returns?

No man of God dies twice. Jesus will not die twice. But you have made him die once already and resurrected him here on earth without any reason while all the other people will resurrect in the next world. That was funny.

Muhammad is in his grave, he can neither see you nor hear you

.
**True. Muhammad is in his grave. He has passed away like all other messengers of Allah. We cannot see him or hear him now except through some revelation, some spiritual experience. muhammad has passed awy like Jesus nd all other messengers of God. No problem. There is a limit to every one’s life.

Every one has to go. No one remained. It is described in the Quran that all messengers eat food and roam in the markets and they do not have any extra-ordinary long life. that applies to Jesus too who was a human. Please tell me where is the human part of Jesus now?
We Muslims believe that the soul of Jesus (not the body) is gone away, close to God and is happily there like the souls of all the other prophets of God.
**

am sure the Egyptians, Christians and Muslims, saw the apparition of Virgin Mary in Zeitun, not of Aisha or Khadija.

Could not understand that and would not like to understand it. Thanks.

 

[planten]

He said He is the teacher and the example. Insulting God again and again?

 

[planten]

“Take my yoke upon you and learn of me,”

Luke 21
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

but Muslims decide to insult God by saying no His words are corrupt.

**We do not insult God in any way. We pray to our God regularly. You have already insulted Jesus by admitting that he died a cursed death on the cross. We don’t even do that. Why to call Jesus a cursed person?? It is a sin of the high order.

About the words being corrupt, God did not like that. people do that. Like people do so many other bad things.**

 

[planten]

Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Luke, 8-18

He is so confused, what he had before, was taken

These are the good words of Jesus. They are correct and we Muslims believe that Jesus said these wise words. We do not deny the above words. Thanks for posting them. Post as many as you like. We love the words of Jesus.

 

[morning_star777]

dear planten why should we take jesus as a human?cause your quran says so.ok then why don’t you accept jesus as god?our bible says that jesus is god

 

[inJESUS]

So let us not discuss this matter again. It does not suit you and you do not believe it. So forget it.

you go against your book when you decide He was put on the cross yet did not die since your book denies both.

Great achievment. God saved his beloved from the curse. and proved that Jesus was not cursed in any way. That is not a minor thing. Both the Jews and the christians were bent upon abusing the man of God by saying that he was cursed. That is not a minor blame, to call any one a cursed person. we do not believe Jesus was cursed. Should i repeat this 5 more times Planten? He took our curse yes, He is cursed NO! just like the hypothetical example i gave you about a father : being in prison does not mean you are criminal even if it appears as such to others..

Besides, how did Allah manage to save Him if He appeared dead and “cursed” to all?

That is why the Jews were anxious to kill Jesus on the cross. Jesus did not like it. He prayed to his God to avoid the cup. His prayer was accepted and he was saved. That is what the Quran is saying. You can believe the way you like

the Quran mentions none of this. It is your interpretation.

**It does, about many miracles. About the miracles of Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. **

so why are you denying that Jesus performed miracles by saying that He refused to?

Quran is full of miracles and it is a great miracle itself. The Quran is the greatest miracle itself.

a miracle is not subjective.

The miracles of Jesus are described in the Quran. And the saving of Jesus from the death on the cross is another miracle of the Quran.

you call stealing from legends and apocrypha a miracle? all of what you know about Jesus from Quran was written before Muhammad. Where is the miracle in parroting?

While you people had condemned that man of God by crucifixion (bad death).

are you calling God names again and again when both NT and OT talk about His death?

In Quran Allah states " I and my messengers will surely by victorious (winners)". According to that also jesus should not die on the cross. According to that too, Jesus should be saved in his struggle against his enemies.

was He saved when his ennemies were boasting of killing Him exactly because Allah made them think so? weird is this Allah indeed.

 

[inJESUS]

**No man of God dies twice. Jesus will not die twice. **

but you say He died (when/where/how?) yet the hadith say He will die when He comes back right? so how many times will you make Him die?

But you have made him die once already and resurrected him here on earth without any reason while all the other people will resurrect in the next world. That was funny

did we make Him come through a virgin when everybody has biological fathers as well?

.
**

that applies to Jesus too who was a human. Please tell me where is the human part of Jesus now?

** i believe Jesus died… am not a Muslim who believes Jesus have been living for 2000 years now and will die after thousands of years. And since the Quran says all prophets before Muhammad died, then yes Jesus did die but WHEN if Allah raised Him from the cross? when did He die exactly according to your theory?

Could not understand that and would not like to understand it. Thanks

you could google Zeitun miracle in Egypt, and tell us whether it was Mary’s apparition to millions or
Aisha’s.

If you don’t want, then you can’t come telling us that Muhammad is alive when it is always Christians saints who are doing miracles.

 

[inJESUS]

We do not insult God in any way. We pray to our God regularly. You have already insulted Jesus by admitting that he died a cursed death on the cross. We don’t even do that. Why to call Jesus a cursed person?? It is a sin of the high order.

should i quote to you another dozen verse about God’s Word which stands for ever and cannot be corrupt? why are you insulting Him by saying no He is not truthful?

About the words being corrupt, God did not like that. people do that. Like people do so many other bad things.

 

[Angelos]

Please forget the Quran. You go by the bible. You believe that it was Jesus on the cross. I also believe it by my understanding of the Quran and I am sure that it Jesus there, no one els eon the cross. So let us not discuss this matter again. It does not suit you and you do not believe it. So forget it.

You want inJESUS to quit discussing this with you although it was YOU who started this discussion and tried to support your arguments with faulty references to both the Bible and the Koran.

Great achievment. God saved his beloved from the curse. and proved that Jesus was not cursed in any way. That is not a minor thing. Both the Jews and the christians were bent upon abusing the man of God by saying that he was cursed. That is not a minor blame, to call any one a cursed person.

… and Allah forced Jews and Christians to regard Jesus as “a cursed man” until Mohammad’s time!!!

Allah in your Koran made Jews and Christians believe and be convinced that Jesus was crucified! Jesus, according to your personal interpretation of the Koran verse, was made to appear dead to everyone after being deposited from the cross. This illusion could not save Jesus from being “a cursed man” in the sight of Jews and Christians, who failed to understand that Jesus supposedly survived crucifixion.

That is why the Jews were anxious to kill Jesus on the cross. Jesus did not like it. He prayed to his God to avoid the cup. His prayer was accepted and he was saved. That is what the Quran is saying. You can believe the way you like.

Now you are naively trying to synthesize the accounts in the New Testament with the vague verses in the Koran concerning Jesus’ passion. Where in the New Testament is it written that Jesus’ prayer (which indicated His anguish and temptation!) for His salvation from the cross was answered? Where is it written in the Koran that Jesus recited that prayer?

It does, about many miracles. About the miracles of Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. Quran is full of miracles and it is a great miracle itself. The Quran is the greatest miracle itself.

How can the Koran be considered a miracle performed by Mohammad if the Islamic assertion that the Koran is the word of Allah is true?

The miracles of Jesus are described in the Quran. And the saving of Jesus from the death on the cross is another miracle of the Quran. While you people had condemned that man of God by crucifixion (bad death).

The greatest miracle concerning Jesus occurred with His resurrection! The supposed miracle in the Koran, however, fails to save Jesus from the image of a crucified and dead man (which you define as cursed!) and condemns Allah to deception!

In Quran Allah states " I and my messengers will surely by victorious (winners)". According to that also jesus should not die on the cross. According to that too, Jesus should be saved in his struggle against his enemies.

Yet the same Koran contradicts itself by recurrently depicting Jews as murderers of Allah’s prophets:

Surah 2:61 Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.

Surah 3:183 Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Messengers came unto you before me with miracles, and with that (very miracle) which ye describe. Why then did you slay them ? (Answer that) if ye are truthful!

Surah 5:70. We made a covenant of old with **the Children of Israel **and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

 

[Sam_777]

We do not insult God in any way. We pray to our God regularly. You have already insulted Jesus by admitting that he died a cursed death on the cross. We don’t even do that. Why to call Jesus a cursed person?? It is a sin of the high order.

should i quote to you another dozen verse about God’s Word which stands for ever and cannot be corrupt? why are you insulting Him by saying no He is not truthful?

“Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:14).

 

[Sam_777]

When I asked my Sunni friends who were explaining Islam’s beliefs to me if Mohamed had miracles as part of his history, they said no.

That is true, most Islamic clerics agree that Muhammad had no miracles per this verse from Quran:
“[90] They say: "We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,[91] "Or (until) thou have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water,[92] "Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces, as thou sayest (will happen), against us, or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face;[93] “Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we can read.” Say: "Glory to my Lord! am I aught but a man, a Messenger?”" (Quran 17:90-93).

They said that Jesus worked miracles, because He lived in an age of miracles.

I don’t think that is true, else all Jews would have believed him, but maybe you can ask your Sunnis friends these questions:

• If Jesus was a normal messenger as claimed by Quran, then why would God The Most High made his birth so special and extraordinary, simply he could have chosen one man from any righteous Jewish family at that time, and no need for such special birth.
• Why God The Most High sent two persons at the same time (Jesus & John the Baptist), he could have simply assigned whatever miracles Jesus did to John the Baptist (the same concept of Moses miracles), now they might tell you that God had sent Moses & Aaron at the same time, but what they don’t know that God did not like that in the first place per Exodus 4:11-14, and he approved it ONLY after TWO requests from Moses (because he was slow of speech and tongue) per Exodus 4:10.
• Why Jesus did not marry, while Muhammad had 9 wives?, doesn’t that indicates that he is Lord, and in the Islamic view, there is no way that God can take a wife!

That age had passed by the time of Mohamed and Mohamed lived in an age of poetry. The wonder that he produced was the Koran, which is the most beautiful poetry in existence. The proof of Mohamed’s claims to be a prophet is in the poetic beauty of the Koran.

That is somehow true and not-true, Muslims rely on this verse from Quran to support that:
“Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur-an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.” (Quran 17:88).

But keep in mind that Arabs were and still well known with their beautiful Arabic poetry, but that doesn’t mean that Quran is the only one which has beautiful poetry, there are lots of poetry books in the past and nowadays which have similar verses (even there are some verses in Quran which some researchers claim that it was taken from such books(A)), in addition that not all Quran has beautiful poetry verses, and once you translate that to English or any other language, all that poetry magic will disappear.

All I know about Islam I learned from Muslims. It is the very basics I suppose.

Jesus teaching is a heavenly one, while Islam teaching is an earthy one.

 

[inJESUS]

Arabic poetry is beautiful. One can just read the ones written before Islam.