Islam under attack? Or under a debate?

[Peace]

Is suicide so embedded in your culture that you can’t recognise a sacrifice?

There is no support for personal individual suicide or suicidal terrorist activities in Islam nor among the knowledgeable Muslims.

Show me where in the religious text of Islam, there is a support for suicide bombers?

Islam condemns all kinds of terrorist acts. Just because enemies of Islam are nowadays blaming some people for commiting terrorist acts whose name sound like Muslims, does not mean that Islam allows what *enemies of Islam *accusing Islam.

Here is a site which gives you links to the numerous Muslim sites who condemn what you are accusing of:

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
Details: muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Make sure you read all these links before responding back to this post.

But the funny thing is there is a clear support for suicidal act in Christianity of those Christians who believe that their God died on a cursed cross despite knowing full that their enemy Jews will kill him with a horrible death-crucifixion and their God must die in order to raise again otherwise their faith is senseless/vain.

 

[Peace]

Your Muslim brother pro_universal.

in what post# ?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Peace,
We’re not talking about suicide (killing oneself only) but suicide bombing (killing others but in the process you kill yourself).

For Islamic scholars supporting terrorism and suicide bombing - I have already given many examples in one of the earlier posts.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Your Muslim brother pro_universal.

Rodrigo’s right Peace.

Go back through this thread and check it out for yourself.

Edit: Hmmm…I was wrong on this one. It was Sixtus.

– my bad (this time).

 

[inJESUS]

Mr Ex-Nihilo , see why it is futile to try to explain to some people? save your energy

 

[Peace]

peace, your defense of suicide bombers makes you an Islamic terrorist.

Re-read my posts again and again. I am not defending suicide bombers nor any suicide activity because there is no room for any terrorist activity in the system of Islam because Islam is from God Almighty and Islam is Peace. Even the President of America knows this fact, so he says:

“Islam is Peace” Says President
Remarks by the President at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
Washington, D.C.

These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it’s important for my fellow Americans to understand that.

The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule.

The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don’t represent peace. They represent evil and war.

When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that’s made brothers and sisters out of every race – out of every race.

America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.

Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That’s not the America I know. That’s not the America I value. …

whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html

Do you need a rocket scientist to know this fact that there is no room for any terrorist activity in Islam? Commiting suicide is HARAM in Islam. And I do not believe that Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) committed suicide because he did not die on the cross in the first place even according to your contradictory Bibles. Then how dare you Christians think that Jesus Christ committed suicide on a cursed corss or cursed tree?

Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a mightest messenger of God who did his best to convey the Will of God --the Islam of his time period-- and when Jews tried to kill him, Allah saved his messenger’s life from such humilaited death. Allah is Powerfull. All Praise be to Allah. You think Allah could not have save his choosen Prophet’s life from such humiliating “suicidal” death? Allah does whatever He Wills.

 

[cestusdei]

Today the major cause of terrorism is Islam. If you want to read or watch Muslim clerics encourage suicide bombings I invite you to visit:

www.memri.org

See for yourself.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Sorry it was Sixtus who claimed poverty was a factor in terrorism. Post #19.

PS: committing suicide is haram in Islam, but not shahadat.

 

[pro_universal]

Okay, let’s get rolling here:

1. I never even used the word “poverty” on this thread, much less did I claim it is the cause of terrorism.
2. There’s a study of every single suicide bombing committed in the world since 1980 that’s been done. It’s findings were that the most prolific suicide bombers weren’t Muslims, and that religion is NOT the predictive factor for whether or not suicide bombings will be employed. Foreign occupation by different religious groups is the key.
3. Posting stuff about martyrdom proves zero. Pope Urban’s 1095 call to crusade explicitly promises heaven to anyone who dies in service of Christianity. That doesn’t mean that the Pope would’ve sanctioned suicide bombing, and neither do the verses being posted about how dying for Islam will be rewarded support suicide bombing.

This thread is an amazingly accurate one. It started with a question about whether or not Islam is under attack. These posts are the best answer anyone could ever give: I post evidence on something people claim is a vice in Islam showing that it’s not even associated with it, and people ignore the evidence and keep blabbering away about how bad “them thar muslimz is.”

The answer should be obvious by now: Yes, Islam is under attack.

 

[pro_universal]

Today the major cause of terrorism is Islam. If you want to read or watch Muslim clerics encourage suicide bombings I invite you to visit:

www.memri.org

See for yourself.

Okay, would you read a translation service for hebrew documents put out by Saddam’s fedayeen?

Then why would you read a translation service for arabs that is put out by Israeli intelligence officials?

 

[Peace]

Today the major cause of terrorism is Islam. If you want to read or watch Muslim clerics encourage suicide bombings I invite you to visit:

www.memri.org

See for yourself.

Have some mercy on your knowledge. That link you are referring me of memri.org is a Zionist anti-Islam and anti-Muslim site.

If you want to know what islam and knowledgeable Muslims believe, just ask them directly. Or read your J.Paul II about his comments on Islam. There is nothing hidden in Islam. Islam is in existence in full-version since 1400 years. All prophets of God were Muslims. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim too. Then how dare you accuse Islam of all Prophets of God (pbut) with your misinformed views?

To know who Pope is would you go to the sites of those who believe that* Pope is actually an anti-Christ* and *Rome is the Harlot *that Bibles talk about?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Okay, let’s get rolling here:

1. I never even used the word “poverty” on this thread, much less did I claim it is the cause of terrorism.

Point noted in the previous post.

pro:

1. There’s a study of every single suicide bombing committed in the world since 1980 that’s been done. It’s findings were that the most prolific suicide bombers weren’t Muslims, and that religion is NOT the predictive factor for whether or not suicide bombings will be employed. Foreign occupation by different religious groups is the key.

Foreign occupation is not the cause as there has been Muslim on Muslim suicide bombings and terrorist attacks also.

It’s how Muslims express their unhappiness.

This is not to say that for other people suicide bombings might not be for politico-military aims, but that is not the case with Muslims who have a politico-military-religious aim.

pro:

1. Posting stuff about martyrdom proves zero. Pope Urban’s 1095 call to crusade explicitly promises heaven to anyone who dies in service of Christianity. That doesn’t mean that the Pope would’ve sanctioned suicide bombing, and neither do the verses being posted about how dying for Islam will be rewarded support suicide bombing.

Pope Urban does not write scripture. His words may influence Christians at the time but there is still no theological basis for what he taught. Different popes teach different things (sometimes even conflicting) but Christians today don’t hark back to Pope Urban’s teachings as the basis of Christianity.

This is what you continually fail to see and create equivalence where none exists. The equivalence between Muhammad’s teachings in Islam is Jesus’s teachings in Christianity. You shouldn’t tu quoque and much less equivocate between Muhammad and a pope.

pro:

This thread is an amazingly accurate one. It started with a question about whether or not Islam is under attack. These posts are the best answer anyone could ever give: I post evidence on something people claim is a vice in Islam showing that it’s not even associated with it, and people ignore the evidence and keep blabbering away about how bad “them thar muslimz is.”

Your ‘vice’ apologetic is more than countered by the incitement to shahadat by Islamic scholars. Re-read my post where I showed all those eminent authoritative Islamic scholars urging/condoning/sanctioning shahadat.

pro:

The answer should be obvious by now: Yes, Islam is under attack.

Islam is under attack the same way Nazism was attacked when the Allies landed in Normandy in 1944.

 

[pro_universal]

Foreign occupation is not the cause as there has been Muslim on Muslim suicide bombings and terrorist attacks also.

Well, a Prof. at U Chicago did a study of every single suicide bombing since 1980. He concluded that this was in fact the key factor.

What kind of study did you do of suicide bombings? Did you even read the interview with Prof. Pape?

Pope Urban does not write scripture. His words may influence Christians at the time but there is still no theological basis for what he taught. Different popes teach different things (sometimes even conflicting) but Christians today don’t hark back to Pope Urban’s teachings as the basis of Christianity.

I see. So now you’re not only better at explaining Islam than Muslims, you know Christian teaching better than the Popes do?

Your ‘vice’ apologetic is more than countered by the incitement to shahadat by Islamic scholars. Re-read my post where I showed all those eminent authoritative Islamic scholars urging/condoning/sanctioning shahadat.

The only thing approaching sanction pertained to Israel and Palestine, which is exactly the kind of situation Pape describes as the cause of suicide bombing: Occupation by a different religious group.

Islam is under attack the same way Nazism was attacked when the Allies landed in Normandy in 1944.

Almost right. It’s under attack the same way Judaism was when Hitler started preaching from the reichstag.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

Rodrigo:

Foreign occupation is not the cause as there has been Muslim on Muslim suicide bombings and terrorist attacks also.

Well, a Prof. at U Chicago did a study of every single suicide bombing since 1980. He concluded that this was in fact the key factor.

What kind of study did you do of suicide bombings? Did you even read the interview with Prof. Pape?

The “muslim on muslim” thing is false. Were there any suicide attacks against Saddam when he invaded kuwait? No. Were there any suicide bombings in Iran or Iraq during their war? No. The only suicide bombings in the middle east have been connected to occupation: of Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Palestine, and Iraq.

I’ve pointed out that nobody is claiming Islam is causing terrorism as a religious rite. People do not become suicide bombers because they’re Muslims. That is your straw man.

I agree that the shaheed do have some perceived grievances (rightly or wrongly) that are politico-military in nature. However, what differentiates the shaheed from other suicide bombers is their religious sanction.

The Commies and Socialists and Marxists do not have religious sanctions for suicide bombing - they don’t tell indoctrinate their suicide bombers into believing what they are doing is morally right according to God.

So keep up with the straw man, pro. I have already spoken about this but did you address this straw man? No.

pro:

Rodrigo:

Pope Urban does not write scripture. His words may influence Christians at the time but there is still no theological basis for what he taught. Different popes teach different things (sometimes even conflicting) but Christians today don’t hark back to Pope Urban’s teachings as the basis of Christianity.

I see. So now you’re not only better at explaining Islam than Muslims, you know Christian teaching better than the Popes do?

And I see you know Islam better than me even though you’re not a Muslim and have only spoken to several Muslims? That argument of yours is old and has been debunked already, bud. Try another one.

Your relationship to Islam is very shaky, pro, but do we discount what you say even though you admit not being a Muslim? No.

You don’t even see that your own argument disqualifies you from ever commenting on Islam, do you?

pro:

Rodrigo:

Your ‘vice’ apologetic is more than countered by the incitement to shahadat by Islamic scholars. Re-read my post where I showed all those eminent authoritative Islamic scholars urging/condoning/sanctioning shahadat.

The only thing approaching sanction pertained to Israel and Palestine, which is exactly the kind of situation Pope describes as the cause of suicide bombing: Occupation by a different religious group.

Don’t give me that - Jihad was sanctioned by the Islamic scholars pertaining to its conquests too. Muslims kill and die in the cause of conquest under the same theological stance. Shahadat is not a new Islamic invention - it goes back to the earliest days of Islam. Dying for Islam while killing other people is fully acceptable in Islam.

pro:

Rodrigo:

Islam is under attack the same way Nazism was attacked when the Allies landed in Normandy in 1944.

Almost right. It’s under attack the same way Judaism was when Hitler started preaching from the reichstag.

Don’t take the victimized stance. You Muslims love playing the victim. You Muslims hate Jews so it is highly insulting to play the Jew now.

 

[pro_universal]

Don’t give me that - Jihad was sanctioned by the Islamic scholars pertaining to its conquests too. Muslims kill and die in the cause of conquest under the same theological stance. Shahadat is not a new Islamic invention - it goes back to the earliest days of Islam. Dying for Islam while killing other people is fully acceptable in Islam.

This is missing the entire point. Dying for Christianity is commendable too. That doesn’t mean that suicide bombing is permitted. Neither does the teaching that dying in defense of or in service of Islam say anything about suicide bombing either. In fact, the blanket prohibition on intentional suicide in both religions says the opposite. But you seem only able to see: “dying for the faith is rewarded, therefore, suicide for the faith is rewarded.” That’s not so, and it’s a gross logical leap.

Don’t take the victimized stance. You Muslims love playing the victim. You Muslims hate Jews so it is highly insulting to play the Jew now.

See what I mean?

The comment has nothing to do with anything substantive. It doesn’t add to a debate on Islam. It doesn’t address the hard evidence posted about violence on the thread.

All it does is defame Muslims and make them out to be a bunch of anti-semites, and then accuse them of crying foul if they say that the criticisim they receive is unfair.

Islam is under attack, Charlie Zeaiter. There’s the answer to your question.

Case in point:

I post evidence showing that bashing Islam isn’t the answer to solving the problem of suicide bombing. Other posters (rodrigo included) admit this, saying “people don’t become suicide bombers because they’re muslim”, and then go on to bash Islam anyway.

So it’s a fact: here’s a problem the world has, a solution that doesn’t involve bashing Islam was posted, and everybody ignored it in order to just keep posting things bashing Islam on the point.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

This is missing the entire point. Dying for Christianity is commendable too. That doesn’t mean that suicide bombing is permitted. Neither does the teaching that dying in defense of or in service of Islam say anything about suicide bombing either. In fact, the blanket prohibition on intentional suicide in both religions says the opposite. But you seem only able to see: “dying for the faith is rewarded, therefore, suicide for the faith is rewarded.” That’s not so, and it’s a gross logical leap.

That’s rot, pro. See those Islamic scholars I listed that said suicide bombing is permissible, indeed a noble highly moral act according to Islam?

Or did you forget the ‘you love life but we love death’ bit?

The debate of why shahid can intentionally kill themselves for the good of the Ummah has been answered long ago - I’m surprised you don’t know this debate.

pro:

See what I mean?

The comment has nothing to do with anything substantive. It doesn’t add to a debate on Islam. It doesn’t address the hard evidence posted about violence on the thread.

All it does is defame Muslims and make them out to be a bunch of anti-semites, and then accuse them of crying foul if they say that the criticisim they receive is unfair.

If you Muslims did not Jihad the rest of the world perhaps we might still think you’re just another religion that is no threat to us. However, it is becoming clear to the world that Islam is a major threat to world peace. The Catholic saints and early chroniclers understood the Islam Threat centuries ago - but we seem to have forgotten that threat when Islam lost its vigour and aggression and became weak and decadent. Thus, the Western World is doomed to having to relearn those hard lessons of centuries past.

So don’t come crying to us about how Islam is being victimized. Those of us who have lived in Islamic countries and under the yoke of Islam can tell Islam is the arch victimizer. Nobody victimizes as much and as well as Islam.

 

[pro_universal]

The debate of why shahid can intentionally kill themselves for the good of the Ummah has been answered long ago - I’m surprised you don’t know this debate.

This is you repeating yourself. That doesn’t answer the point about the difference between the word “martyr” and the word “suicide.” Both Christianity and Islam reward martyrs; you sure have that right. But that doesn’t mean that “martyr” includes suicide bomber. You didn’t post a single theological piece that says “intentionally ending your own life is permissible.”

However, it is becoming clear to the world that Islam is a major threat to world peace.

Except that I just posted hard evidence that Islam is not associated with this kind of terrorism. Foreign occupation is the cause of suicide attacks, according to the best data we have.

So, on what basis do you conclude that Islam is a threat?

You conclude that because you ignore any hard evidence, make your own cartoon versions of what Islam teaches, and think that bashing Islam is more important than paying attention to the facts or solving real problems.

So don’t come crying to us about how Islam is being victimized. Those of us who have lived in Islamic countries and under the yoke of Islam can tell Islam is the arch victimizer. Nobody victimizes as much and as well as Islam.

See what I mean? More judgment, more shrill personal testimony, and no facts or reasoned claims.

This is about your hatred for Islam, not about the facts.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

This is you repeating yourself. That doesn’t answer the point about the difference between the word “martyr” and the word “suicide.” Both Christianity and Islam reward martyrs; you sure have that right. But that doesn’t mean that “martyr” includes suicide bomber. You didn’t post a single theological piece that says “intentionally ending your own life is permissible.”

Except martyrdom in Islam can involve killing others. That is why the shahid are distinguished from the suicides because the former kills others while the suicide only kills himself.

Please don’t mistake this. I don’t think Christianity at its core has such a concept as shahadat and shahid. I could be wrong but I think it’s unlikely.

I don’t have to post what shahid means because the context is clear from my earlier posts where I showed Islamic scholars/authorities sanctioning shahadat. What did you think they meant?

pro:

Except that I just posted hard evidence that Islam is not associated with this kind of terrorism. Foreign occupation is the cause of suicide attacks, according to the best data we have.

More of this straw man again. Read my post above where I showed that Islam encourages Muslims to commit shahadat with heavenly rewards. That is the point we’re talking about.

pro:

So, on what basis do you conclude that Islam is a threat?

On the basis of your self-avowed aim to CONVERT the world to Islam or subjugate it in dhimmitude. That is the threat the world faces because most of us don’t like Islam and don’t like being treated as dhimmis.

Note the same people who ‘fear’ Islam are not fearing Buddhism and Jainism because those religions are not threatening to us.

pro:

You conclude that because you ignore any hard evidence, make your own cartoon versions of what Islam teaches, and think that bashing Islam is more important than paying attention to the facts or solving real problems.

I have answered every question with hard evidence (see the Islamic scholars quotes I posted) or by reasoning. Please look up the debate on shahid/shahadat before continuing with your straw man.

pro:

See what I mean? More judgment, more shrill personal testimony, and no facts or reasoned claims.

As if you do not bring your own judgment and personal testimony to your debates. You seem to think Islam is good - isn’t that a judgment and personal testimony from you?

You claim I have no facts and reasoned claims - what rot. I have always evidence my claims.

pro:

This is about your hatred for Islam, not about the facts.

I hate Islam the way I hate Nazism. How is that a bad thing? Should we love or hate evil? I know for a fact that Islam is evil and therefore it should be hated by all reasonable people.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

For pro’s education on the permissibility of suicide in Islam so long as it involves killing others:

memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=SR3204
Grand Imam of al-Azhar Sheik Tantawi: " I was very clear: Anyone defending his right, his land, his money, and his religion and gets killed is a martyr. Anyone who blows himself up amongst the enemy that wants to kill him and he can find no means of defending himself except blowing himself up amongst these soldiers who are occupying his land and destroying his home, and so he blows himself up amongst these aggressive soldiers, is a Shahid, Shahid, Shahid."

Sheikh Dr. Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi: "There are clerics who oppose martyrdom * operations in Palestine. By these operations Allah has compensated the Palestinians for their lack of strength. They do not, as the Zionists do, have Apache helicopters, warplanes, tanks, missiles. Allah has compensated them for this with these human bombs. This is divine justice.

Former President of Al-Azhar University Dr. Ahmad 'Omar Hashem:“We ask of our believing brothers not to forsake Jerusalem. We want our believing brothers to see their brothers in the occupied land, who have no support and no weapons, no money, and no [assistance] in the struggle. They have nothing except for their souls and their bodies, which they turn into a weapon and blow themselves up before the enemy in defense of their honor and their stolen land. Shall we not stand by them as Mujaheedin ?”

Yeah right - it is permissible to suicide so long as you take a few of the enemies (mostly non-combatants as history has proven) along with you. That is the morality of Islam. Most suicide bombers don’t bomb soldiers in the battlefield - they bomb civilians. That is the Islamic morality of martyrdom.*

 

[inJESUS]

where the 9/11 suiciders Palestinians with their territory occupied ?