Islam - Wife Beating & Women's Rights

[tawheedah]

Would you like to see Shari’ah law in place?

Do you see me trying to move to Saudi? [no, you don’t]

 

[french]

taweedah - i applaud you for not supporting killing of apostates and such.

BUT, that’s what YOU personally believe, and not what islam teaches.

islam teaches to kill homosexuals, adulterers, those who leave islam, and kafirs in many instanses. that’s islam.

i’m glad you disagree with the heretical aspects of your religion… but nevertheless, they are beliefs… they are in the hadeeths and in quran.

islam is a cult, and a very violent, disgusting religion. it’s a religion where two loving men can not be with each other, yet a 60 year old man can marry a 6 year old girl and play dolls with them. it’s a religion with an unstable "allah"who changes his mind and abrogates things every 10 seconds. it’s a filtyh disturbing religion.

sorry if i am offending you, but i am just speaking the truth.

i personally think that islam is a cult and people are brainwashed to believe things. i have spoken to many egyptian coptic Chrsitians who tell me that they HATE islam and they HATE muslims. and you think what i say is bad… you should hear what these people say. that’s how disgusted they are with it. and i don’t blame them!

if we Americans can expose the truth of scientology, then i pray that we will too expose the truth of the cult called islam.

 

[Verisimilitude]

This woman is a lesbian. That’s the reasoning behind her wanting to “reform” Islam… because how she lives her life is haram.

Does her being a lesbian discount everything she says about Islam?

If she was a Catholic, she’d be wanting to reform Catholicism.

She is…

Irshad with Christian free-thinkers, all participating in an historic ceremony to ordain Roman Catholic women priests

…trying to reform Catholicism though she isn’t Catholic.

Would you as a Catholic sympathize with that?

I sympathize with civil rights as well as religious law. I think a free secular society should recognize the human condition and not apply HIPAA or financial enterprise restrictions to gay couples which are only recognized by legal mariage now.

I do not support gay marriage, gay adoption, gay invitro…but I do support being fair. The gay lifestyle should not be mainstreamed in public or religious life, but neither should it be oppressed in the civil society. The Church has full authority and justification to define Her adherants point of view, and we are to act as an individual in that regard in both public and private life.

The freedom to practice my religion in a society means others can practice theirs as just as freely as long as it does not disrupt society. Where even the dominate religion cannot dominate society with particular morality laws.

If rational people should be allowed to change their religion they should be allowed to act in accordance with their conscience even if that act is offensive to your view of God. Everything has reasonable limits, and society has set them with regard to things like poligamy, animal sacrifice, pedophilia, murder…but (some) things should change. 40 years ago the institutionalized racism against blacks from America’s slavery era was dealt a mortal blow largely due to the wisdom of the Founding fathers of America who took their inspiration from the Father.

With respect to women becoming Roman Catholic priests story I will admit my prejudice if you want to call it that- priests should be men.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Do you see me trying to move to Saudi? [no, you don’t]

I had to ask as I know many in the USA & Europe who have converted to Islam and now they are on the bandwangon for implementing Shari’ah here in the USA & Europe. For a huge percentage of Muslims Shari’ah is islam. It is the law of Allah as derived by the Qur’an and ahadith.

Accordign to Shari’ah, to disagee with anything in the Qur’an is apostacy and punishable by death.

Do you agree with any of these tenents of Islam…?

A man has the right to hit (‘discipline’ physically) his wife.

Adultery is punished by execution.

Apostacy is punishable by death (you already said that you do not agreew with this one.)

Punishment for theft is that one hand is cut off. On the second charge of theft the second hand is cut off, next time a foot, next time the other foot… don’t know what is cut off next… don’t know that the poor guy can steal anymore after this.)

Slavery is legal… and a man has sexual rights to his female slaves.

A man can marry 4 wives and have as many short-term/temporary wives as he wants.​

I"m just asking these as I’m trying to understand what you believe.

 

[BelFarfalla]

OK more questions for you…

No I don’t support the killing of apostates or anyone else for that matter.

So you do not believe in this aspect of Islam. - good
And I know lots of Muslimahs that leave the house without their husband’s accompanying them or “permission”.
Sure you do, you live in the USA. You do not live under Islamic law. You have this luxury. So is that you don’t mind that most women in this world who live under Islam have few rights as long as you live here in the USA and are protected by our laws?

Most Muslim countries today put some restriction on the movement of all women in their society. The stricter ones do not even let a woman walk on the street without escort. Shari’ah law states that an woman cannot leave the home without her husbands permission and she has to be escorted if she travels.

I don’t think we should try to alter Islam to cater to our sexual preference. No I don’t accept everything that comes with Islam, but I will not commit Zina which is one of the worst and major sins you can commit.

I don’t think that anyone here was suggesting this. Zina is illegal on Catholicism too.

Do you support the killing (often by stoning) of people who do commit zina?

I’m not trying to alter Islam to fit with my opinions. I don’t wear hijab all the time, but I’m not going to sit here and try to say that we don’t have to wear it.

You say that you are not trying to alter Islam, but you also do not agree with many things in Islam. How do you reconcile that the only reason that you can even express such opinions is that you don’t live in a Muslim country?

There are many reasons that I would never consider converting to Islam…. I’ve mentioned several already… execution of apostates, execution of adulterers, cutting off hands and feet, legalized wife abuse, polygamy, limited rights for women, institutionalized apartheid against anyone who is not a Muslim, violent jihad mandated for the spread of Islam…… These are just of few of my least favorite things….

 

[BelFarfalla]

So what is this? None of our Muslim members want to defend Muhammads order for them to beat their wives? They were going this on the other thread???

What about defending on the other topics of mistreatement of women that are dogma, doctrine and law of their relgion?

 

[blacktiger057]

This sort of racism makes me SICK!!!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

blacktiger,
Is criticizing Islam racism? I don’t think so. Do you think Islam is beyond reproach? Is wife beating beyond reproach? Is killing apostates beyond reproach? I don’t think so.

Otherwise, you’d be admitting that Islam is only for a particular race and therefore any criticism of islam is automatically racist.

 

[BelFarfalla]

This sort of racism makes me SICK!!!

How is this racism?

To start with Islam is NOT a race, it is a religion.

No where does this thread attack the faith Muslims have in God/Allah.

It is speaking about the dogma, doctrine and laws of Isalm that instruct men to beat their wives and that give women few rigths.

Did you even read that material presented in the thread?

Have you ever studied Isalm?

Or are you already aware that this is Islam but you think it is just fine?

 

[blacktiger057]

I meant the beating of wives. I thought we believed that violence is never truly justified? And this is just another way that a Holy Book to a religion that was written by men has been twisted by them to make women of a lesser value.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I meant the beating of wives. I thought we believed that violence is never truly justified? And this is just another way that a Holy Book to a religion that was written by men has been twisted by them to make women of a lesser value.

Actually it is not twisting Islam. Have you ever read the qu’ran? Did you read the verses that were quoted here?
Muhammad instructs men to beat their wives. Islamic law reiterates this instruction.

All of the other discriminations against women are in the Qur’an, Hadith and Shria’ah law. They are a very integral part of Islam.

 

[blacktiger057]

Well ofcourse it’s a belief, but I know that belief is not right. It’s racism in religion. It’s the same as only men can serve as priests. I don’t agree with it, but there is little I can do to stop you from doing this.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Well ofcourse it’s a belief, but I know that belief is not right. It’s racism in religion. It’s the same as only men can serve as priests. I don’t agree with it, but there is little I can do to stop you from doing this.

It is more then a belief. Based on this belief it is law that governs the lives of millions of Muslim women and even the non-Muslim women who live under these laws.

This goes a lot deeper then only men being able to serve as priests. These laws permiate every aspect of a woman’s life. And yes there is something we can do about it. Some things have already been done.

For example, about 5 years ago Iran changed the age of consent for marriage for girls to the age of 15. The reason is that the international human rights community put so much pressure on them that they could no longer justify it. Saying that child marriages are good because Muhammad did it does not hold up in today’s world.

Iran is now coming under a lot of pressure form the same community because they execute women rape victims saying that they committed fornication. Right now there is a young lady on death row in Iran who was raped by her brother when she was 13. She go pregnant. They let her have the baby then were going to stone/hang her. But again the human rights community have pushed so hard on Iran for sentencing this child to death for rape… they still plan to kill her but now they are waiting until she is 18. This is giving the community more time to fight for her life.

She sits in an Iranian jail waiting for her execution. Her brother got a slap on the wrist. But people are still fighting to save her life. If she is executed, all hell will break out against Iran.
The same community is also working in Pakistan where child brides are common. To stop this abuse. Women in Saudi, Egypt, etc are working to end the laws that protect wife beating… they need all the help they can get from all of us who object to this. It is very dangerous for them to speak up.

Yes, there is something we can all do. Many are already working on it. Awareness that this is the belief and the law is the first step.

 

[blacktiger057]

It is more then a belief. Based on this belief it is law that governs the lives of millions of Muslim women and even the non-Muslim women who live under these laws.

This goes a lot deeper then only men being able to serve as priests. These laws permiate every aspect of a woman’s life. And yes there is something we can do about it. Some things have already been done.

For example, about 5 years ago Iran changed the age of consent for marriage for girls to the age of 15. The reason is that the international human rights community put so much pressure on them that they could no longer justify it. Saying that child marriages are good because Muhammad did it does not hold up in today’s world.

Iran is now coming under a lot of pressure form the same community because they execute women rape victims saying that they committed fornication. Right now there is a young lady on death row in Iran who was raped by her brother when she was 13. She go pregnant. They let her have the baby then were going to stone/hang her. But again the human rights community have pushed so hard on Iran for sentencing this child to death for rape… they still plan to kill her but now they are waiting until she is 18. This is giving the community more time to fight for her life.

She sits in an Iranian jail waiting for her execution. Her brother got a slap on the wrist. But people are still fighting to save her life. If she is executed, all hell will break out against Iran.
The same community is also working in Pakistan where child brides are common. To stop this abuse. Women in Saudi, Egypt, etc are working to end the laws that protect wife beating… they need all the help they can get from all of us who object to this. It is very dangerous for them to speak up.

Yes, there is something we can all do. Many are already working on it. Awareness that this is the belief and the law is the first step.

Very inspiring post! People need to let go of now meaningless tradition.

 

[Jedda]

Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!

The sections of this article are:

1- Wife beating is not allowed in Islam!
2- Noble Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of
wife beating.
3- The Prophet forbade striking on the face.
4- What about the saying about striking the wife lightly on her hand with a siwak?
This saying doesn’t belong to Prophet Muhammad.
5- More proofs about the translation of Noble Verse 4:34.
6- Conclusion.

Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.

Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

(35). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

(36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"

The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is “idribuhunna”, which is derived from “daraba” which means “beat”. The issue with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word “daraba” is that they don’t necessarily mean “hit”. The word “idribuhunna” for instance, could very well mean to “leave” them. It is exactly like telling someone to “beat it” or “drop it” in English.

Allah Almighty used the word “daraba” in Noble Verse 14:24 “Seest thou not how Allah sets (daraba) forth a parable? – A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens”. “daraba” here meant “give an example”. If I say in Arabic “daraba laka mathal”, it means “give you an example”.

Allah Almighty also used the word “darabtum”, which is derived from the word “daraba” in Noble Verse 4:94, which mean to “go abroad” in the sake of Allah Almighty:

“O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: ‘Thou art none of a Believer!’ Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)”

islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html

 

[BelFarfalla]

Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!
The sections of this article are:
1- Wife beating is not allowed in Islam!
2- Noble Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of
wife beating.
3- The Prophet forbade striking on the face.
4- What about the saying about striking the wife lightly on her hand with a siwak?
This saying doesn’t belong to Prophet Muhammad.
5- More proofs about the translation of Noble Verse 4:34.
6- Conclusion.
Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.
Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). ……

This post of yours is double speak… first you say that wife beating is not allowed. Then you post the Hadith that says it is allowed.
We have had Muslims here on this forum say that it is allowed and that ti is a good thing.

You just showed that the Qur’an allows for the beating of wives who ‘disobey’ their husband. It does not matter that he cannot hit her in the face (remember that the face and hands are the ony part of a woman’s body that are allowed to be uncovered.), it does not matter that he has to do two things before hitting her… the fact is that he can and the Qur’an gives him instructions on this.

 

[blacktiger057]

Well, humans wrote it. Did you expect it to be without a flaw? In Leviticus it says we can own slaves from neighboring states, and that definately wasn’t divinely inspired.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Well, humans wrote it.

Don’t tell Muslims that the Qur’an was written by humans. Most of them will even say that the authentic Hadith show the revelations of God to Muhammad. That is why they ae used as the basis fo the law.
Muslims claim that God wrote the Qur’an and gave it to Muhammad. So they claim that God wrote the bit about beating wives.

Did you expect it to be without a flaw? In Leviticus it says we can own slaves from neighboring states, and that definitely wasn’t divinely inspired.

I accept that the Qur’an has flaws. Muslims do not.
As for the laws of slavery in the Bible. I spent some time looking into that. There is a huge difference between the Qur’an and the Bible. The Qur’an is said to have been revealed to Muhammad in a few short years.
The Bible revelations of the bible occurred over thousands of years. In the Bible we see the Jewish people being brought from a civilization that was pagan, that owned salves, etc. into one that was monotheistic and that evolved into a society that did not own salves.
Believe it or not, the laws of slavery in Leviticus were revolutionary for their time and place. For instance while a Jew could buy a slave from another state, they could not kidnap a person and make that person a salve. According to the bible it is a death penalty for a Jew to force a person into slavery.

If they hurt their slave (a Jewish slave or one from somewhere else) the slave was set free. If a slave ran away from their owner, the Jewish population was to help the slave and the slave gained freedom. All Jews who were salves were indentured servants.

They had to be treated as part of the family, could not be forced to do hard labor, were set free in 7 years. Got their personal property and what basically amounted to a severance package when they were let go in the 7the year. There were amnesties for out-of-state salves every so many years… When an amnesty was called. All salves had to be released. I had one scholar of Jewish law tell me that the Jewish laws of slavery put such a financial burden and other burdens on the owners of salves that it just was not worth it.

 

[Jedda]

This post of yours is double speak… first you say that wife beating is not allowed. Then you post the Hadith that says it is allowed.
We have had Muslims here on this forum say that it is allowed and that ti is a good thing.

You just showed that the Qur’an allows for the beating of wives who ‘disobey’ their husband. It does not matter that he cannot hit her in the face (remember that the face and hands are the ony part of a woman’s body that are allowed to be uncovered.), it does not matter that he has to do two things before hitting her… the fact is that he can and the Qur’an gives him instructions on this.

I never posted a hadith that said that!

 

[BelFarfalla]

I never posted a hadith that said that!

I’m sorry, you posted verses from the Qur’an that said that.

So you are right, you did not post a Hadith. You posted something with much greater authority that stated a man can beat his wife… Qur’anic verses.