Islam

[Andrew_Phillip]

I did explore it…I was Muslim at one point in my life.

**Well I wasn’t, and as such am interested in what planten has to say.

Just because you have once been a part of the Islamic faith - and turned away from it, does not give you licence to attack Muslims in these forums on a personal basis.

As a former Muslim, do you have any information on Islamic beliefs re Archangel Gabriel being the Holy Spirit - or on the death and burial of the Most Holy Virgin in Pakistan?**

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Just because you have once been a part of the Islamic faith - and turned away from it, does not give you licence to attack Muslims in these forums on a personal basis.

I don’t attack Muslims on a personal basis, but if I see intellectual dishonesty (many times of which are documented, given this is an internet forum) I am going to call it out.

As a former Muslim, do you have any information on Islamic beliefs re Archangel Gabriel being the Holy Spirit - or on the death and burial of the Most Holy Virgin in Pakistan

Yes, it is utter bunk even by Islamic standards. Planten is an Ahmadi Muslim, which is the Muslim equivalent of Mormonism, hence why I think it is unfair for most Muslims here to hold his beliefs as orthodox Islam. It would be like a Muslim asking you about the Christian belief that a Hebrew tribe traveled to America and Jesus preached to the Indians.

 

[dzheremi]

I also find this concept very strange, as it would seem to discount the Qur’an as well. I once asked Sister Amy (I think) this very question, and if I remember correctly she answered that God could have in fact chosen to preserve the previous scriptures, if He had wanted to. He simply chose not to. Apparently God in Islam is a bit like Goldilocks in the famous “Three Bears” story: The first two books are somehow lacking, but the last book is just right.

It’s ridiculous and I don’t see how any Muslim can argue such things with a straight face, but then I suppose that’s my reaction to most uniquely Islamic claims. Another one that perplexes me is the claim made by some Muslims (which I heard for the first time here; I don’t know how wide-spread it is) that the corruption of the Bible doesn’t matter/was allowed/is not important for Muslims to verify because the “true Injil” (Gospel given to Jesus) is preserved by Allah on a tablet in heaven. Of course, this presupposes that the Gospel given to Jesus is a literal book/written text, which not even all Muslims agree on. It is so strange to me that Islam claims that there are so many things central to Christianity that are in dispute among Christians (the crucifixion, the Bible) that, when you really look at it, are actually only in dispute among Muslims because none of these lying anti-Christs can keep their story straight.

 

[wwolverine]

All Muslims believe in God and Jesus and Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel). It is surprising that most Muslims believe that Jesus was taken up alive to heavens (not necessarily by replacement theory), by some means and that he was not put on the cross at all.

But this belief (that Jesus is alive) is not supported by the Quran or the bibleNT or hadith. So Ahmdis do not believe it. Further more, it is well proved by the Quran that Jesus son of Mary had died a natural death. So, those who believe that Jesus is alive sitting in heaven have no ground to stand. Only the ignorant Muslims are believing that Jesus is alive in heavens. And there a big lot of them too.

Yes, Allah had promised Jesus that he will not die on the cross. It is history now ( See a book “Jesus in Heaven on Earth”). Jesus migrated to India with his mother, in search of the lost sheep of Israel. Believe it or not.

May be I could not understand your question. I had replied a few times about the flood in the time of Noah. I do not understand why you kept on asking things again and again.

I was away, hospitalised. Best wishes.

Dear Planten

Sorry to hear of your sickness. Hope you get well and in best of health.

Now coming to your answer, I feel its a bit out landish to my thinking.
Muslims claim that the present quran which is read, is the same as was revelaled to mohammed 1400 hundred years ago, with no word changed. ( that too I find hard to believe). But going by the muslim explaination, what you say is that all muslims whether a shia, sunni, ahmedi, bori or whatever, have the same quran, but different understanding. How can that be? One quran, one language but understandings are different???

As for my question on Noah, it was simple questions but you deny to answer them in the most he most simple language. Still waiting to know your answer.

Have a great day with quick recovery.

 

[Hypatia]

I have no stake in arguing that the various books of the bible, as they exist now, are corruptions from earlier, purer and correct texts. This claim is not Qur’anic and, as far as I know, does not show up in the Islamic tradition until much later. As far as I can tell, there is no reason to think that such a claim is true. It is certainly not supported by modern biblical scholarship in any meaningful way.

 

[fms]

, and is resurrected in a spiritually glorified body, .

Better: He is resurrected.

“On the third day He rose again from the dead.”

See correction below form the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645
By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his passion.509 Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.510 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.511

646
Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is "the man of heaven."512

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Better: He is resurrected.

“On the third day He rose again from the dead.”

See correction below form the Catechism of the Catholic Church

…what correction? I said Christ is resurrected, you say He is resurrected. The Catechism quote agrees with me on the spiritually glorified body, because it says “in his risen body” and “his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state.”

Also, please stop quoting the Catechism to me. I am Eastern Orthodox, the CCC means nothing to me. You might as well quote the Westminster Confession of Faith, it would be just as relevant.

 

[fms]

…what correction? I said Christ is resurrected, you say He is resurrected. The Catechism quote agrees with me on the spiritually glorified body, because it says “in his risen body” and “his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state.”

Also, please stop quoting the Catechism to me. I am Eastern Orthodox, the CCC means nothing to me. You might as well quote the Westminster Confession of Faith, it would be just as relevant.

You are on a Catholic forum…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

You are on a Catholic forum…

Fulton Sheen once said, “If you want to debate a Muslim, don’t go at him with the Bible, go at him with the Quran,” meaning you argue from a person’s point of view.

When we’re discussing Catholic doctrine, you can quote from the Catechism, or if you’re trying to explain things from a Catholic point of view. Otherwise, it is good to be relevant. I would not, for example, quote John Calvin’s Institutes to an Arminian Protestant regarding justification.

 

[fms]

Glad you addressed this to BW.

It may look petty but it is actually fundamental and profound…

Catch the little foxes that cause havoc in the vineyard

He who is faithful in little, is faithful in much

The same Christ that died is the same Christ that rose. Though now glorified. There is danger and departure when people start saying he ‘rose spiritually’…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

There’s also a great danger in misquoting what someone is saying.

Christ is the Incarnation of the Divine Word…and is resurrected in a spiritually glorified body…

There is danger and departure when people start saying he ‘rose spiritually’…

As shown here, that’s not at all what I said. I did not say He “rose spiritually” but that He “is resurrected in a spiritually glorified body,” which the Catechism quote you provided agreed on.

 

[fms]

Fulton Sheen once said, “If you want to debate a Muslim, don’t go at him with the Bible, go at him with the Quran,” meaning you argue from a person’s point of view.

When we’re discussing Catholic doctrine, you can quote from the Catechism, or if you’re trying to explain things from a Catholic point of view. Otherwise, it is good to be relevant. I would not, for example, quote John Calvin’s Institutes to an Arminian Protestant regarding justification.

John the baptist said:

31 He who comes from above is above all others; he who is of the earth is earthly himself and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven
32 bears witness to the things he has seen and heard, but his testimony is not accepted by anybody;
33 though anyone who does accept his testimony is attesting that God is true,
34 since he whom God has sent speaks God’s own words, for God gives him the Spirit without reserve.

You may chose to debate…I state the truth.

I like the approach you have taken with Islam/Muslims. After you have started from their end, the goal is to draw them to the truth. The truth you state has to be the Catholic Truth otherwise you are guilty of the very same thing you are accusing them of .i.e. of not knowing what true Christians truly believe…

God sent his Son and commanded us to listen to him. And the Son said he who listens to you (the Apostles/The Son’s Church/The Catholic Church) listens to him and listens to the one who sent him.

BW has been Musim, now Eastern Orthodox. If you only knew the gift of God and what he is offering you. Come over completely to the true Church.

 

[fms]

There’s also a great danger in misquoting what someone is saying.

As shown here, that’s not at all what I said. I did not say He “rose spiritually” but that He “is resurrected in a spiritually glorified body,” which the Catechism quote you provided agreed on.

is resurrected in a spiritually glorified body

I am sorry if I misquoted you.

The above statement is bothersome.

You do not resurrect in…

You resurrect. (In my first post I wanted to write resurrect PERIOD but I did not want to be rude…)

 

[fms]

You are the one saying this and not I.

And Jesus said to her:

22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know; for salvation comes from the Jews.

 

[fms]

Why are you answering for BW?

 

[jakasaki]

John the baptist said:

You may chose to debate…I state the truth.

BW has been Musim, now Eastern Orthodox. If you only knew the gift of God and what he is offering you. Come over completely to the true Church.

Stop this!

The subforum is NON-Catholic discussions.

Who made you keeper and police officer of this subforum. The thread is about ISLAM!

You know nothing of Byz_Worf… and this is one of the reasons I dispise this Catholic is true and EO is not.

I come from a family of both!!! We do not treat each other as one is true and the other is not.

Stop this!!! Stick to the thread topic!

 

[jakasaki]

Why are you answering for BW?

Topic of this thread in the NON-Catholic sub forum is:

Re: Islam

 

[jakasaki]

 

[fms]

Stop this!

The subforum is NON-Catholic discussions.

Who made you keeper and police officer of this subforum. The thread is about ISLAM!

You know nothing of Byz_Worf… and this is one of the reasons I dispise this Catholic is true and EO is not.

I come from a family of both!!! We do not treat each other as one is true and the other is not.

Stop this!!! Stick to the thread topic!

Catholic Answers Forums>Forums>Non-Catholic Religions…

Is it interesting how people judge/react without knowing?

I am married to a Muslim. My in-laws are muslim. My sister was married to a Muslim. I have a nephew and nieces who are muslim.

Muslims and Christians say God is one (and True). So if God has revealed himself to man there is is among all religions in the world that one true religion because that one true God wants to be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth or else there is no religion out there that worships God the way he ought to be worshiped.

My (name removed by moderator)ut to this thread has been to point what those things that were stated as Christians truths when they were not entirely accurate.

 

[jakasaki]

Catholic Answers Forums>Forums>Non-Catholic Religions…

Is it interesting how people judge/react without knowing?

I am married to a Muslim. My in-laws are muslim. My sister was married to a Muslim. I have a nephew and nieces who are muslim.

Muslims and Christians say God is one (and True). So if God has revealed himself to man there is is among all religions in the world that one true religion because that one true God wants to be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth or else there is no religion out there that worships God the way he ought to be worshiped.

My (name removed by moderator)ut to this thread has been to point what those things that were stated as Christians truths when they were not entirely accurate.

You are married to a muslim??? And you are still Catholic???

Then you are married to a non practicing muslim, meaning, his//her faith is not islam otherwise you would not state your position as Catholic.

Stick to the thead topic and is the discussion of islam.