Islam

[noobio]

First of all, these responses are irrelevant unless you are suggesting that the Islamic understanding of taqiyya doesn’t require similarly good reasons. As a matter of fact, you haven’t explained what you think the Islamic understanding of taqiyya is (in terms of how far it’s permissible to go and what circumstances might or might not justify it), nor have you given any sources support your claims about Islam.

Of course all of these examples of lying had “good” reasons, in the sense that they helped the Israelites defeat their enemies. You see that as morally justifying because you identify with the Israelites and consider their cause good. You don’t like the idea of Muslims doing the same because you consider their cause bad.

So your argument seems to be this:

1. Muslims are bad because they lie
2. When the Israelites lied it was not bad, because the Israelites’ cause was good

Can’t you see how circular this is? You assume “Israelites good, Muslims bad,” and then justify Israelite lying and condemn Muslim lying on that basis. But you started out by making the argument that Islam is bad *because *it condones lying. This doesn’t hold up.

Edwin

Im sorry, I thought you where trying to say, what happened in the bible or things done in the bible were morraly wrong. My response had nothing do with Islam, I was just trying to explain why the people in the bible lied (which was unnecesary and pointless) I should of read your post more carefully, Im sorry.

 

[Contarini]

Im sorry, I thought you where trying to say, what happened in the bible or things done in the bible were morrly wrong. My response had nothing do with Islam, I was just trying to explain why the people in the bible lied (which was unnecesary and pointless) I should of read your post more carefully, Im sorry.

It happens–I do the same thing. It’s hard to follow these discussions and remember just what point a given post is making.

I would actually say that Jael’s action was definitely wrong. It’s justifiable only by a radical “ends-justify-the-means” philosophy and the assumption that killing Israel’s enemies is always good. Rahab’s case is mixed–she was saving life, but she was helping people who planned to massacre her entire people, and she cut a deal to save herself and her family at the expense of everyone else. Elisha’s is the easiest to justify–it’s only wrong if you take the rigorist position that lying is always wrong without exception. I’m inclined toward that position, but it’s hard to take a strong stance against life-saving lies.

This is relevant to the discussion of Islam, because it seems to me that the mentality lying behind Jael’s action and the praise of Jael found in Judges 5 is precisely the same as that of Muslim radicals who justify terrorism because it advances Islam. This goes beyond the question of taqiya, of course.

The Fathers generally took the position that the OT saints did a number of things that were not praiseworthy, but were pardonable given their place in salvation history. The problem with Islam, as I see it, is not that it’s entirely bad, but that its moral standards are roughly those of King David rather than of Jesus.

Edwin

 

[hamba2han]

Ave Maria!
I have talked with a lot of Coptic Orthodoxes about Islam and they seem to think that it’s an evil religion. But when I read Nostra Aetate it’s seems to be a religion of peace.
Is Islam evil or good?

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

And if you search for the Ten Commandments in the Qur’an, then you will indeed find them.

Muslims follow the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

"If you love me, you will keep the commandments" (John 14:15)

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16&17)

Since Islam teaches it’s adherents to keep the Commandments, then based on the testimony of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) himself as recorded in the New Testament, Islam is surely good and not evil.

On the other hand, if Christians have a different way than that taught by Jesus Christ (pbuh) on how to determine what is good and what is evil, then perhaps they need to declare that the Ten Commandments are no longer relevant in this day and age.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is that in fact what the Coptics state? I understand that the Coptics as of recent have a larrge number of Martyred but I haven’t read this?

 

[noobio]

It happens–I would actually say that Jael’s action was definitely wrong. It’s justifiable only by a radical “ends-justify-the-means” philosophy and the assumption that killing Israel’s enemies is always good.

Im sorry to get off topic, but if what Jael’s action was wrong, doesn’t that mean what the Lord wanted was evil ? It says in Judges 4:9 “The LORD will hand Sisera over to a women”.

Rahab’s case is mixed–she was saving life, but she was helping people who planned to massacre her entire people, and she cut a deal to save herself and her family at the expense of everyone else. Elisha’s is the easiest to justify–it’s only wrong if you take the rigorist position that lying is always wrong without exception. I’m inclined toward that position, but it’s hard to take a strong stance against life-saving lies.

Im not sure if your saying lieng in Elisha case, or Rahabs case was a sin. In the time of Rahab, or the spies, the Isrealites were going into the promised land, and God was punishing the Canaanites or the others ( Dueteronomy 18:12)

This is relevant to the discussion of Islam, because it seems to me that the mentality lying behind Jael’s action and the praise of Jael found in Judges 5 is precisely the same as that of Muslim radicals who justify terrorism because it advances Islam. This goes beyond the question of taqiya, of course.

Jael was just killing someone who was in war then escaped. The Lords people were trying to free themselves from the king of Cannan. This isn’t the same as killing people to advance your religion.

The Fathers generally took the position that the OT saints did a number of things that were not praiseworthy, but were pardonable given their place in salvation history. The problem with Islam, as I see it, is not that it’s entirely bad, but that its moral standards are roughly those of King David rather than of Jesus.

Edwin

I don’t think the Fathers thought God did anything wrong, and in Joshua 2:4-5, Judges 4:18, and 2 Kings 6:19 God is involved But I might be wrong on this because I have no knoweldge about the Fathers or there writtings… I don’t think these stories or the same as someone wanting to commite terrorism to spread there religion. I don’t think that is a good argument against islam either and this terrorism thing does show the true Islam. But, I think Islam is wrong because there scripture says Christ is not God, or rejects the trinity and says things that are against Christanity. I think most Christians misunderstood Jihad and taqiya. Taqiya is usually used in life and death situation and Jihad just means a struggle to follow a duty.

Sorry for the spelling and terrible grammer.

 

[noobio]

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

And if you search for the Ten Commandments in the Qur’an, then you will indeed find them.

Muslims follow the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

"If you love me, you will keep the commandments" (John 14:15)

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16&17)

Since Islam teaches it’s adherents to keep the Commandments, then based on the testimony of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) himself as recorded in the New Testament, Islam is surely good and not evil.

On the other hand, if Christians have a different way than that taught by Jesus Christ (pbuh) on how to determine what is good and what is evil, then perhaps they need to declare that the Ten Commandments are no longer relevant in this day and age.

Do you agree that Catholism is good even though according to your religion it is corrupted ?

 

[dzheremi]

Gah…Hamba’s on my ignore list and he still manages to bother the heck out of me!

How can Islam teach its adherents to keep commandments it DOESN’T have? A little logical thinking isn’t too much to ask for, even from Hamba…

The only “commandment-like” thing I’ve ever heard from the false jesus of Islam (I’m not capitalizing that because it’s not Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten and Savior of all mankind) is to worship one God. Yeah, okay. You sort of have that, in that your sole prophet manages to be able to count to one (even if he can’t seem to keep his own desires out of God’s mouth). Other than that, I have yet to hear a single commandment coming from the Islamic jesus, let alone any commandment that matches what Jesus Christ told his apostles and disciples that Muslims could by any stretch of the imagination be conceived as keeping.

The real Jesus Christ, the Lord of all, has said “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matt. 26:52)

Islam totally fails to follow the commandments of Christ. Hardly surprising…you have no commandments from God, and no prophets, and no holy book.

 

[EzraJacob]

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

And if you search for the Ten Commandments in the Qur’an, then you will indeed find them.

Muslims follow the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

…
Since Islam teaches it’s adherents to keep the Commandments, then based on the testimony of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) himself as recorded in the New Testament, Islam is surely good and not evil…

In this case Christianity is good. Yet Quran will claim otherwise. So double standard?
Apostles, the first-hand witnesses taught the truth of Christ and warned us of thous who will come and teach a different Christ. Ill take first hand witness over Muhammed.

On the other hand, if Christians have a different way than that taught by Jesus Christ (pbuh) on how to determine what is good and what is evil, then perhaps they need to declare that the Ten Commandments are no longer relevant in this day and age.

No, we follow Christ, and that is why we have to deny Islam.

 

[EzraJacob]

You’re being pig-headed now.

Yes yes, that is fine.

Also, ever heard the quote ‘the right to throw punches ends at your face’? In short, you can do anything you so wish as long as it harms no-one else*. THE GRAND MAJORITY of Muslims practice their religion in such a way as to not harm anyone else.
.

Westernized Muslims are nice. Until they attack.

 

[noobio]

Gah…Hamba’s on my ignore list and he still manages to bother the heck out of me!

How can Islam teach its adherents to keep commandments it DOESN’T have? A little logical thinking isn’t too much to ask for, even from Hamba…

The only “commandment-like” thing I’ve ever heard from the false jesus of Islam (I’m not capitalizing that because it’s not Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten and Savior of all mankind) is to worship one God. Yeah, okay. You sort of have that, in that your sole prophet manages to be able to count to one (even if he can’t seem to keep his own desires out of God’s mouth). Other than that, I have yet to hear a single commandment coming from the Islamic jesus, let alone any commandment that matches what Jesus Christ told his apostles and disciples that Muslims could by any stretch of the imagination be conceived as keeping. .

You are actually wrong. Some of the commandments are in the Quran, For example, the Quran forbbids someone making images (14:35), a person is not allowed to use God’s name in vain (2:224), The Quran commands chlildren to honour parents (17:23) The quran does not allow people to be thiefs (5:38-39).

I don’t believe that the God of the bible is the same the God of the Quran and I have no love for Islam. I think Islam is evil because of its false claims about Christanity ( Christ did not die, the bible bieng corrupted, There is no trinity etc…) But you are wrong when you say some of the Quran does not have the commandments.

 

[EzraJacob]

In short, I will side with Jews and Christians before I side with muslim. Not saying they all are bad. But some of them seem to like to kill Jews and Christians for no reason, besides being “infidel”

 

[EzraJacob]

I don’t believe that the God of the bible is the same the God of the Quran and I have no love for Islam. I think Islam is evil because of its false claims about Christanity ( Christ did not die, the bible bieng corrupted, There is no trinity etc…) But you are wrong when you say some of the Quran does not have the commandments.

Sounds a bit fishy after you defending Islam so much.

 

[noobio]

Sounds a bit fishy after you defending Islam so much.

I believe all religions are evil, because, they worship other God’s. But, Islam actually has scripture saying that Christ is not God and other verses that completly go against Christanity. So, I oppose this religion the most.

But, in my last post, I was just telling the truth, some of the commandments are in the Quran. You seem to think Islam is some sort of religion which promotes murdering,Terrorism, and other terrible acts. Proof this from the Quran if it is true.

 

[EzraJacob]

I believe all religions are evil, because, they worship other God’s. But, Islam actually has scripture saying that Christ is not God and other verses that completly go against Christanity.

And since it goes against Christianity, it is evil. That is what I have been saying.

But, in my last post, I was just telling the truth, some of the commandments are in the Quran. You seem to think Islam is some sort of religion which promotes murdering,Terrorism, and other terrible acts. Proof this from the Quran if it is true.

No. I seem to think Islam is not a legit religion, and was created by a false prophet. That is why it is evil. The false prophet and his people are influenced by Satan. I do not need to provide verses from Quran to prove they are influenced by Satan. Nor do I need to provide verses to prove Muslims are having a war against us Non-Muslims. If you look through news, you will find many proof Muslims are waging war.

Beslan?

 

[noobio]

And since it goes against Christianity, it is evil. That is what I have been saying.

I agree with this

No. I seem to think Islam is not a legit religion, and was created by a false prophet. That is why it is evil.

If you don’t think Islam is violent then why did you say:

I will not die for the right to campaign and support violent Jihad, or Nazism.
Both are the enemies, and to support even the right to allow either is treason.

That is what is wrong with America. They allow you to have the right to speak and spread ideas that are deadly and held by the enemies of, not only America, but of the whole west.

The false prophet and his people are influenced by Satan. I do not need to provide verses from Quran to prove they are influenced by Satan. Nor do I need to provide verses to prove Muslims are having a war against us Non-Muslims. If you look through news, you will find many proof Muslims are waging war.

Beslan?

You should not judge a religion by its followers, but by its teaching. If you believe Islam is violent (Commands to murder jews and Christians or whatever else it is) then use verses from the quran which promot this. Im not asking for verses which go against Christanity because I already know them, but I have not seen a verse which asks to murder to spread there religion. I also haven’t read the full Quran yet so, I might be wrong

 

[EzraJacob]

You should not judge a religion by its followers, but by its teaching. If you believe Islam is violent (Commands to murder jews and Christians or whatever else it is) then use verses from the quran which promot this. Im not asking for verses which go against Christanity because I already know them, but I have not seen a verse which asks to murder to spread there religion. I also haven’t read the full Quran yet so, I might be wrong

How great can a religion, headed by a false prophet be? And what is Jihad then?

 

[Sam_777]

Islam totally fails to follow the commandments of Christ. Hardly surprising…you have no commandments from God, and no prophets, and no holy book.

 

[dzheremi]

But you are wrong when you say some of the Quran does not have the commandments.

Hamba2han quoted JESUS CHRIST (the real/only one) saying “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”. I am not at all surprised that Islam has some form of the commandments given in the Old Testament, as Islam’s various codes (moral, dietary) are nothing if not a bastardization of Judaism (with a heaping helping of Arab cultural custom thrown in). What I doubt is that any commandment given by Jesus Christ is followed by any Muslim, because I am not aware of the Islamic jesus giving any but the most vague and basic of command. The Islamic jesus is Muhammad’s forerunner, same as all the past figures that Islam perverts for its own uses. That’s basically it.

 

[Arthur_Bahnam]

Yes, saying ‘Islam’ is like saying ‘Christianity’- it’s little more than an umbrella covering a wide variety of different time periods, differing methods of interpretation and differing methods of practicing the religion. It differs between countries, generations and periods in history.

To my mind, Islam is neither completely innocent nor is it completely evil as it’s seen by many Christians and indeed by many in the West. It has some incredible people who really do highlight the best in their religious thought, but at the same time there are also those who are not-so-good examples of Islamic extremism, intolerance and hatred.

Kouyedit: Major thing with the Qur’an is that there are peaceful verses and more belligerent ones. Although in theory the practice of abrogation exists, where later verses ‘replace’ earlier ones that contradict, you can still pretty much pick-and-choose what you wish to suit.

Jesus is love,good,forgiving,sacrificed him self,and blessed him enemy he lived and taught his discipeles, compare to Muhammad hate,evil,killed others,and cursed his enemeis he lived by that and died like that (poisoned) Killed or convert them by the sword

 

[noobio]

How great can a religion, headed by a false prophet be? And what is Jihad then?

Jihad means striving in the way of Allah.