Islam

[MartinJordan]

Any “prophet” that denies Jesus is The Christ (Son of God and Savior of the World) does not even know God nor speak for Him. There’s no two ways nor multiple ways about it.

However, we need to pray for those who have been mislead.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Catholic teaching does not speak of Muhammad, because Muhammad is not mentioned in Scripture. He does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The Saints, whom the Catholic Church venerates all point to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Here is where there is a departure in the teachings of Islam and Christianity.

Now, back to the commonality of Catholics and Muslims as descendents of Abraham. Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. Muslims are the descendents of Ishmael, the son of the concubine Hagar. They are not the descendents of the covenant that God made with the Hebrews. They are not the descendents of Isaac and Jacob.
Jewish and Christians teach that Abraham took his son Isaac to be sacrificed. Muslims on the other hand teach that it was Ishmael that Abraham was willing to sacrifice in obedience to God.
Ismael does fall under the Covenant of Circumcision (Genesis 17:20).
As for Ismael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him…

Islam does mean “submission to God.” The Saints do teach that we are to submit our wills to the Will of God. We do so in freedom, as adopted sons and daughters of the Most High God. As Catholics and Christians, we see Abraham’s sacrifice, not only as willing submission on the part of Abraham to God’s will, but a foretelling of God’s Love for us when He sacrifices His only Son for our salvation.

St. Paul does talk about the difference between submission to God under the Law versus submission out of obedience to the Law of Love, because we are no longer bound by the law. He uses Sarah and Hagar as examples. Isaac, the son of a free woman, and Ismael, the son of a slave.

A side story I heard from a Muslim friend regarding the well of Hagar. The story is that the well has never run dry. There have been occasions when rich men have tried to make their fortunes off this well. On those occasions only has the well not provided water, when it has been used to deprive others.

Does the Catholic Church ever, in its history talked about where the Catholic Faith and Islam “depart” from each other?

I would be interested to read any documents please?



.

 

[Servant19]

Hi Jharek, can you show me where it is stated in Catholic Teaching that Muhammad is a false prophet please?

Thankyou

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[SteveVH]

Hi Jharek, can you show me where it is stated in Catholic Teaching that Muhammad is a false prophet please?

Thankyou

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This has already been answered here:

Originally Posted by Manualman
From a positivist sense, this may be true in that there is no dogma declaring Muhammed to be a false prophet. But if that’s your reasoning then one can’t even declare the Moonies to be a false religion!

By reason and implication, there is no other alternative if Muhammed denied the divinity of Jesus and declared that he did not die on a cross and rise from the dead. If Muhammed claimed this, then he is a false prophet by definition.

And here:

Originally Posted by DebChris
Catholic teaching does not speak of Muhammad, because Muhammad is not mentioned in Scripture. He does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

No need to go in circles, Servant.

 

[Servant19]

This has already been answered here:

No need to go in circles, Servant.

Might I humbly offer these teachings of the Church in that saying “Muhammad is a false prophet” is NOT an example of good Catholicism. Are we not to aspire to be “like” those who set the example of reverence before us?

“…This good action was inspired in your heart by God, the Creator of all things, without whom we can neither do nor think any good thing. He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world…For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth…”

• Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076

Of the above Pope John Paul II said in 1990:

“…I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria…These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace…”

• Pope Saint John Paul II, Message to the faithful of Islam at the end of the month of Ramadan, April 3, 1991

How about two centuries later…

“…Through the participation of one people with another there will be love and concord…one manner of loving and honouring God and we should love and help one another, and make it so that between us there be no difference …] which causes us to be enemies with one another and to be at war, killing one another and falling captive to one another. And this war, death and servitude prevent us from giving the praise, reverence and honour we owe to God every day of our life…[And so] all men might be brought together, that they might have understanding, and love one another, and agree in the service of God…Let Christians who are well schooled and proficient in the Arabic language go to Tunis to demonstrate the truth of their faith and let Muslims who are well schooled come to the kingdom of Sicily to discuss their faith with Christian scholars. By acting in this way, maybe, there can be peace between Christians and Muslims, when in the whole world the situation will take effect that neither Christians want to destroy Muslims nor Muslims want to destroy Christians…”

• Blessed Ramon Llull (1232 – ca. 1315), Catholic mystic, philosopher,
  logician and Franciscan missionary

And another two centuries after that…

“…The whole concern of him who wrote that law [Muhammad], therefore, appears to have been primarily to avert the people from idolatry. And to this end he made these kinds of promises and wrote down everything. However, he did not condemn the Gospel, but rather praised it, and thereby intimated that the felicity which is promised in the Gospel would not be less than that corporeal felicity…You will find that not another faith but the one and the same faith is presupposed everywhere…Moses had described a path to God, but this path was neither taken up by everyone nor was it understood by everyone. Jesus illuminated and perfected this path; nevertheless, many even now remain unbelievers. Muhammad tried to make the same path easier, so that it might be accepted by all, even idolaters. These are the most famous of the said paths to God, although many others were presented by the wise and the prophets…”

• Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1453), De Pace Fidei (Catholic mystic & prelate)

How about we go to the 1930s now:

"…Do not think you are going to a country of heathens [or “among infidels”]. Muslims attain to salvation. The ways of God are infinite…”

• Pope Pius XI, 1934 (L’Ultima, Florence, Anno VIII)

And finally, here is the 1980s:

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…blanca_en.html

“…Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection…The Catholic Church regards with respect and recognizes the equality of your religious progress, the richness of your spiritual tradition…On this path, you are assured, of the esteem and the collaboration of your Catholic brothers and sisters whom I represent among you this evening…”

• Pope Saint John Paul II: Address to young Muslims in Casablanca, 1985

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[Servant19]

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When we are the “people of God” we would observe the Truths and the godliness of others, "and nothing else"

The Church seems to have been a wonderful example of such a characteristic. It revers the Truths and rays of the Sun of Truth within all religions and cultures and practices.

It does not judge in that regard, and it may be imperative that Catholic adherents look at doing the same

The question to prayerfully ask ourselves is if calling Muhammad a false Prophet is “judging” Muhammad Himself and the adherents of His religion?

Friends, let us endeavour to model and be a living example, in word and deed, of the Teachings which we so reverently adore…

.

 

[SteveVH]

Might I humbly offer these teachings of the Church in that saying “Muhammad is a false prophet” is NOT an example of good Catholicism. Are we not to aspire to be “like” those who set the example of reverence before us?

How many times must something be explained to you? We have certain things in common which we acknowledge in Islam. We embrace all truth found in other religions and we are respectful toward them. We also reject all that is false in other religions. You want a definitive statement from the Church that Muhammad is a false prophet? Please give me just one statement from the Church that says he was a true prophet?

There is no need for the Church to make such a proclamation for the simple reason that Christ could not have died on the cross and not died on the cross. Christ could not have risen bodily from the dead and not risen bodily from the dead. As anyone with a rational mind can see, at least one of these positions must be false. I don’t know how much more elemental I can express this. We cannot ignore reason. If Christianity is true then Muhammad is a false prophet.

Steve

 

[DebChris]

It is true that “there are many paths to the top of the mountain” [Muslim teaching], but Jesus remains “the Way, the Truth, and the Light” [Christian teaching].

Scripture says, “the accuser of your brothers (Satan) is cast out.” It is not the role of Catholics to point fingers at those who choose to follow a different path. We do not know how God, the Father will draw any man to himself, nor is it our role to proselytize the Faith. We recognize the followers of Islam as descendents of Abraham, And, yes, Mohammed did lead many away from idolatry back to the worship of the God of Abraham. Mohammed was unschooled when he wrote the Qur’an. As has been mentioned, there are many similarities between what Islam teaches and what Christianity teaches. Mohammed did not come along until after Christ. He failed to recognize the divinity of Jesus Christ and the salvation that Jesus offers to the world.
The followers of Islam, like the Jews, have not entered into the New Covenant. The followers of Islam struggle with the very concept of God as Father begetting a Son, let alone a Son who would take our sins upon Himself to save us from the corruption of sin.

The focus of Catholic teaching is not on what Mohammed, Buddha or the founders of other religions may have to say. Where there are similarities, those teachings may be mentioned in passing during a homily in the same way a good teacher brings in outside resources. The focus, however, remains on the apostolic teachings received directly from Jesus Christ and passed intact through the generations, and protected by the Holy Spirit. Much more emphasis is placed on the examples of Saints who have followed the teachings of Jesus Christ despite the distractions of their times.

 

[Servant19]

How many times must something be explained to you? We have certain things in common which we acknowledge in Islam. We embrace all truth found in other religions and we are respectful toward them. We also reject all that is false in other religions. You want a definitive statement from the Church that Muhammad is a false prophet? Please give me just one statement from the Church that says he was a true prophet?

There is no need for the Church to make such a proclamation for the simple reason that Christ could not have died on the cross and not died on the cross. Christ could not have risen bodily from the dead and not risen bodily from the dead. As anyone with a rational mind can see, at least one of these positions must be false. I don’t know how much more elemental I can express this. We cannot ignore reason. If Christianity is true then Muhammad is a false prophet.

Steve

My apologies if my efforts to stay strict to Catholic teaching has upset you Steve…I am only earnestly striving as a human being.

The point that I make is that if the Church does not make definitive statements about Muhammad then maybe Catholics should do the same.

If you feel that Catholics should make statements that the Church has never in its history has made, then my apologies again.

There is a difference between expressing Truth (which the Church does) and expressing “sweeping statements” based on man-made conclusions (which some have done on this thread)

Again, I am not on an agenda here to anger people and if it I do anger anyone with these earnest and sincere thoughts then I will happily bow out of this thread

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[GaryTaylor]

You want a definitive statement from the Church that Muhammad is a false prophet? Please give me just one statement from the Church that says he was a true prophet?

Same conversation as expecting explicit evidence of Christ stating he was God in scripture, then who becomes the interpreter and judge of Gods word? Pretty much why out of respect we allow Islam to interpret the Quran, the violent verses and all. Even where it does explicitly state something, its suggested we misread it and understand it incorrectly. Must be the same dilemma here.

 

[dolphinlove]

This is Truth

Bravo !!

There is no place in Catholic teaching that states that Muhammad is a false Prophet.
Stating such things is not being aligned correctly with Catholic teaching…

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Hi IS, and i cannot emphisise the IS enought, a false prophet.
There is nowhere in Catholic teachings saying he is a prophet.
The bible clearly states the last prophet was John the Baptist

 

[dolphinlove]

My apologies if my efforts to stay strict to Catholic teaching has upset you Steve…I am only earnestly striving as a human being.

The point that I make is that if the Church does not make definitive statements about Muhammad then maybe Catholics should do the same.

If you feel that Catholics should make statements that the Church has never in its history has made, then my apologies again.

There is a difference between expressing Truth (which the Church does) and expressing “sweeping statements” based on man-made conclusions (which some have done on this thread)

Again, I am not on an agenda here to anger people and if it I do anger anyone with these earnest and sincere thoughts then I will happily bow out of this thread

.

Just because the church does not state the obvious, it doesnt mean its obvious!
The bible states: Matthew 11:11-13New International Version (NIV)

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,[a] and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

The bible also states
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

If the church went around stating every false prophet that claimed to be a worker of God, it would take them goodness knows how long.

muhammad stated Jesus did not die on the cross, Catholics KNOW he died on the cross, which is the whole reason Christianity came about. This makes muhammad a false prophet.

We are not making sweeping statements as you claim, we are simply trying to explain to you why muhammad IS a false prophet.

I dont know how much clearer I can be in explaining why muhammad is not reconised by the church as a prophet.

He is not mentioned in the bible.

He created his own book (with what i think was the help of the devil)

2 corinthians 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

The Catholic church will never ever ever ever recognise muhammad as a prophet, so just accept it and move on!

 

[Servant19]

Hello fellow Aussie dolphin love
(I love dolphins too )

When you write:

If the church went around stating every false prophet that claimed to be a worker of God, it would take them goodness knows how long.

I totally agree with you. Doesn’t that tell you something however?

The Church is not in the business of focussing on the ungodly things of this world, it focusses on what is “of God”, hence the reverence towards Truth no matter what its source

That’s all I’m saying…let us focus on our commonalities which is “of God”…the differences do not exist, the differences are not necessary to be of focus, and if you notice the Church never elaborates on the differences…

The Catholic church will never ever ever ever recognise muhammad as a prophet, so just accept it and move on!

I am not here for that

I am only here to point out an observation which I think has merit within Church teaching. I think Catholic adherents should also reflect on the merits of “Church teaching” and Church wording"

There is a reason for EVERYTHING

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[rinnie]

What is the Catholic view of the religion of Islam…? Doing a report on this religion for our study club and am not sure about this.

The Church teaches that the Muslims indeed pray to the One True God the God of Abraham. That is pretty much all we really have in common.

Where we separate is they do not see Christ as the One true God, and do not believe or follow the teachings of the Church.

They follow the teachings of Mohammad and are pretty much misled.

 

[rinnie]

This is Truth

Bravo !!

There is no place in Catholic teaching that states that Muhammad is a false Prophet.
Stating such things is not being aligned correctly with Catholic teaching…

.

Actually this is not true. Pope John Paul ll has taught that Muhammad is indeed a false Prophet. Actually anyone who claims to have a different teaching from Christ is a false prophet.

It is written in the bible. He tells Timothy to hold fast to what you are taught either by word of mouth or what is written. Muhammad does not hold fast to what is taught in the RCC.

 

[rinnie]

Making implications denies our soul of correct relationship with God, and puts us in the potential category of error.

Why take that risk?

Stick to what the Church clearly states, especially in relation to admiring the truth found in all religions and restrain yourself (just as the Church has) from making implications

This is a sure sign of spiritual discipline and fortitude. Godly characteristics indeed



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Actually the Church teaches that Christ is indeed God the Son. In I John 4:l teaches that anyone who denies Christ as God the Son is not from God.

Muhammad would fit the bill. He denies Christ as God.

 

[Servant19]

Actually this is not true. Pope John Paul ll has taught that Muhammad is indeed a false Prophet. Actually anyone who claims to have a different teaching from Christ is a false prophet.

It is written in the bible. He tells Timothy to hold fast to what you are taught either by word of mouth or what is written. Muhammad does not hold fast to what is taught in the RCC.

Hi rinnie

Hope you’re well angel

Can you show me where Pope John Paul said that please?

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[SteveVH]

My apologies if my efforts to stay strict to Catholic teaching has upset you Steve…I am only earnestly striving as a human being.

The point that I make is that if the Church does not make definitive statements about Muhammad then maybe Catholics should do the same.

If you feel that Catholics should make statements that the Church has never in its history has made, then my apologies again.

There is a difference between expressing Truth (which the Church does) and expressing “sweeping statements” based on man-made conclusions (which some have done on this thread)

Again, I am not on an agenda here to anger people and if it I do anger anyone with these earnest and sincere thoughts then I will happily bow out of this thread

.

Why do you refuse to address the obvious, Servant?

I am not speaking of sweeping statements. I am speaking of the rational, logical fact that two contradicting positions cannot both be true. Either Jesus died on a cross or he didn’t. Either Christ rose bodily from the dead or he didn’t. Both positions cannot be simultaneously true.

Please address this one particular point, Servant and stop weaving your way around the obvious. At least one position must be false, therefore the very fact that we obviously believe that the Catholic position on these matters is true it is impossible to believe that Muhammad was anything other than a false prophet. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Why do you refuse to address the obvious, Servant?

I am not speaking of sweeping statements. I am speaking of the rational, logical fact that two contradicting positions cannot both be true. Either Jesus died on a cross or he didn’t. Either Christ rose bodily from the dead or he didn’t. Both positions cannot be simultaneously true.

Steve

…dear friend, a third option exists. Muhammad meant something else from the interpretations common amongst men.

We can all be rational. We see other evidences in the Quran where it is said that they did not die, but it was clearly seen that they did. (I’m talking about Muslim martyrs here) so let’s put ALL the options on the table and then decide

.

 

[SteveVH]

…dear friend, a third option exists. Muhammad meant something else from the interpretations common amongst men.

We can all be rational. We see other evidences in the Quran where it is said that they did not die, but it was clearly seen that they did. (I’m talking about Muslim martyrs here) so let’s put ALL the options on the table and then decide

.

Are you really trying to imply that Muhammad somehow agrees with the Christian position and this is something that both Christians and Muslims have just missed?

Why don’t you enlighten us. What is it that Muhammad really meant?

Steve