Islam

[pro_universal]

why do you insist i look for info in anti-muslim sites? you did not answer :

Because that’s the only place where the interpretations of Islam you claim are correct exist. They do not exist on Muslim sites, which should lead you to the conclusion that they are likely distortions.

Do muslims allow polygamy? what about Jesus?
Did mohammad allow eye for eye? and Jesus?
you know the rest…but i see that you as well are unwilling to respond to such clear questions.

Islam does not teach exactly the same things as the Catholic Church. You cited two of the least relevant points to your claim that Islam is violent. Many world religions permit polygamy, and “eye for an eye” is a huge oversimplification of Islamic concepts of justice. That doesn’t make the whole non-christian world subject to derision and propaganda.

its my native language…every country has a different dialect but all have the same formal arabic…

Perhaps you have some aversion to Islam becuase of the way your family was treated under some of the brutal regimes that now occupy the middle east? Understandable, but you should try to remain on the side of reason no matter what.

How I answer your questions about my faith will change nothing about my points. I’ll ask you again: Which of us is more in favor of respect and tolerance here?

 

[Muslima]

Dear Pro_Universal,
Here are some sites that can help you learn a little about arabic
geckil.com/~harvest/arabic/
talkislam.com/displaycat1.cfm/subcat=5590.html

Pardon me if these sites are talking to Moslems (non arab speakers) who which to learn arabic in order to better know their religion, you might find this offensive for you but these are only the sites I can find teaching arabic, I’ll try to search for more.

You may send me a private msg. to my inbox stating in which country you reside, I can help you to find someone who can volunteerily help you.

If you wish to visit one of the Islamic countries in order to know more about its people and their traditions and to learn Arabic, you are surley welcome my brother.Learning Arabic is difficult but I have many non arab friends (americans, spanish, British) who learnt arabic and they master it now.

Peace be upon you
Muslema

 

[inJESUS]

Because that’s the only place where the interpretations of Islam you claim are correct exist. They do not exist on Muslim sites, which should lead you to the conclusion that they are likely distortions.

bro, am talking about mohammad vs Jesus’ teachings.

Islam does not teach exactly the same things as the Catholic Church. You cited two of the least relevant points to your claim that Islam is violent.

my point is about Jesus vs mohammads teachings !! my first point was about respect and heavenly promises to Christians which i refuted…as to violence in quran, you surely wouldnt say quran is the ideal book for love, tolerance and peace…and muslima was answering my questions so you better do like her…i’m not eager to prove that islam is all bad…it’d be stupid…

you quoted my verse about fighting all non-muslims but you did not even refute my claim…i wouldnt be sorry if you refute it !! truth does not only depend on the violence part ! its about the general teachings of mohammad vs Jesus.

Many world religions permit polygamy, and “eye for an eye” is a huge oversimplification of Islamic concepts of justice. That doesn’t make the whole non-christian world subject to derision and propaganda.

did Jesus allow polygamy and eye for eye concept (whatever its context is)?

Perhaps you have some aversion to Islam becuase of the way your family was treated under some of the brutal regimes that now occupy the middle east? Understandable, but you should try to remain on the side of reason no matter what.

hehe no nothing of the like, at least personally…am after doctrines…

How I answer your questions about my faith will change nothing about my points.

coz based upon your response, i’ll elaborate…so will you respond please? Is Jesus God incarnate?

I’ll ask you again: Which of us is more in favor of respect and tolerance here?

ufff…bro…did you hear me insulting muslima or telling her she is bad or something? do you fail to recognize that we are after teachings here? please do not repeat this question.

 

[inJESUS]

Muslima:

Dear Pro_Universal,
Here are some sites that can help you learn a little about arabic
geckil.com/~harvest/arabic/
talkislam.com/displaycat1.cfm/subcat=5590.html

Pardon me if these sites are talking to Moslems (non arab speakers) who which to learn arabic in order to better know their religion, you might find this offensive for you but these are only the sites I can find teaching arabic, I’ll try to search for more.

You may send me a private msg. to my inbox stating in which country you reside, I can help you to find someone who can volunteerily help you.

If you wish to visit one of the Islamic countries in order to know more about its people and their traditions and to learn Arabic, you are surley welcome my brother.Learning Arabic is difficult but I have many non arab friends (americans, spanish, British) who learnt arabic and they master it now.

Peace be upon you
Muslema

If you google " learn arabic online" , you’ll get some useful sites to start with…

 

[Muslima]

Dear In Jesus,
The concept of Eye for Eye here is addressed to the rulers and Governers, they should be justice if someone wronged another or harmed him, the ruler should apply justice and take to the wronged one his right, but on the personal level God asks people to tolerate. This means that paople can tolerate others for wrong doing, but when the things reach the governer, the governer must apply justice.
5:45 “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.”

The concept of polygmy is nothing immoral it is a different social act, that is all bacause when a man marries a woman he is just marrying her in the name of allah, he is not comitting adultery or sin, if another religion does not permit polygmy this does not mean it is sinful. And I know that according to the bible many Prophets married more than one woman like Abraham, Jacob, Moses , Solomon. So do you despise them or say they are sinners?

By the way, I knew from the beginer that you are a native of one of the Islamic countries, but let me ask you, as long as you live amongst Moslems I do not think that they hate you or wish to kill you or something of that sort. I live in a moslem country, when I’ve been to school when I was young, I went to a famous catholic nuns school. I have many christian freinds, i used to go to the church with them. We treated each other equally, when it was time to my prayers, i used to pray in the church of my school without feeling offended and without any atmosphere of hatred.
Peace be upon you
Muslema

 

[inJESUS]

Dear In Jesus,
The concept of Eye for Eye here is addressed to the rulers and Governers, they should be justice if someone wronged another or harmed him, the ruler should apply justice and take to the wronged one his right, but on the personal level God asks people to tolerate. This means that paople can tolerate others for wrong doing, but when the things reach the governer, the governer must apply justice.
5:45 "We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself

. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers." i understand this…Jesus did not allow this…this is Jesus’ reply :

25 "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
40
If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
41
Should anyone press you into service for one mile, 26 go with him for two miles.
42
Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

The concept of polygmy is nothing immoral it is a different social act, that is all bacause when a man marries a woman he is just marrying her in the name of allah, he is not comitting adultery or sin, if another religion does not permit polygmy this does not mean it is sinful. And I know that according to the bible many Prophets married more than one woman like Abraham, Jacob, Moses , Solomon. So do you despise them or say they are sinners?

according to the NT , polygamy is a sin…as to the OT prophets, God did not allow polygamy as well…and yes prophets are sinful as well, they are no angels…they were punished for polygamy ( forgot who exactly)…obviously, another opposing teaching. Divorce as well, if not for adultry is a sin…sex with slaves as well ( i was amazed to know that what your right hand possesses still applies now as per muslim mufti from Egypt 3 monthes ago…

By the way, I knew from the beginer that you are a native of one of the Islamic countries, but let me ask you, as long as you live amongst Moslems I do not think that they hate you or wish to kill you or something of that sort

of course not…well i hear many ugly remarks from many thus i stick to Christian neighborhood

I live in a moslem country, when I’ve been to school when I was young, I went to a famous catholic nuns school. I have many christian freinds, i used to go to the church with them. We treated each other equally, when it was time to my prayers, i used to pray in the church of my school without feeling offended and without any atmosphere of hatred.

it would be strange if it were otherwise…i had many muslems as well in my Catholic school…well not very moslems but i mean , absolutly no problem from Christian point of view.
My point is : am not discussing Islam vs Christianity according to the behavior of individuals…am talking teachings…you said you love and respect us and i know this perfectly…my point is : the quran teaches otherwise, and i quoted.

God bless all…

 

[inJESUS]

Pro-Universal, you entered the discussion energetically, but when it came to faith statment, you left…strange but no surprise…still waiting for your answer anyway.

 

[inJESUS]

On polygamy in OT:

“When thou art come unto the land which the Eternal thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me. . . . **Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away” ** (Deut. 17:14, 17). It is spoken of as “THIS LAW” in verses 18 and 19

Abraham did not commit polygamy
David was punished for polygamy and he repented .
Jacob, after conversion, had one wife
Isaac had only one wife
Solomon was punished for polygamy
Noah had one wife
Job had one wife
Moses had one wife

God made ONE wife for Adam – not a harem! He started the human family out as He ordained they should go – a family of ONE man and ONE wife

Jesus said, in this same connection: “Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female?” Notice, Jesus was dating this from the BEGINNING. And God never changes! “And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” Notice, a man shall cleave to his WIFE – not wives. And they TWO – not he and several wives – shall be one flesh

God did NOT condone polygamy …He PUNISHED those who practiced it… It was always SIN! It is SIN today! Hosea and other prophets constantly dwell upon the thought of monogamous marriage as being a symbol of the union of God and His people, and denounce idolatry as unfaithfulness to this spiritual marriage tie

 

[cathgal]

Muslima:

And I know that according to the bible many Prophets married more than one woman like Abraham, Jacob, Moses , Solomon. So do you despise them or say they are sinners?

Uh…correction…none of these men had more than 1 wife except Solomon and God was VERY displeased with him…it matters not what we think.

 

[inJESUS]

cathgal:

Uh…correction…none of these men had more than 1 wife except Solomon and God was VERY displeased with him…it matters not what we think.

yes i already corrected this idea :

Abraham did not commit polygamy
David was punished for polygamy and he repented .
Jacob, after conversion, had one wife
Isaac had only one wife
Solomon was punished for polygamy
Noah had one wife
Job had one wife
Moses had one wife

 

[cathgal]

inJESUS:

yes i already corrected this idea :

Abraham did not commit polygamy
David was punished for polygamy and he repented .
Jacob, after conversion, had one wife
Isaac had only one wife
Solomon was punished for polygamy
Noah had one wife
Job had one wife
Moses had one wife

Your correction didn’t exist at the time I responded

 

[inJESUS]

cathgal:

Your correction didn’t exist at the time I responded

the list name is a part of a longer response…maybe the reply came late for some reason.

 

[pro_universal]

First things first:

Muslima,

Thank you for the links, I will look into them and I appreciate the primer. Although your english is perfect, I’d be happy to help anyone to learn english who needs it as well.

inJesus,

you quoted my verse about fighting all non-muslims but you did not even refute my claim…i wouldnt be sorry if you refute it !! truth does not only depend on the violence part ! its about the general teachings of mohammad vs Jesus.

Read the link I posted to you above. It is a long, well documented, well written, and well reasoned explanation of the verses according to a traditional Muslim understanding. You will notice the difference in tone and quality from the anti-Muslim sites immediately, and I hope you do take the time to read the entire piece.

.you said you love and respect us and i know this perfectly…my point is : the quran teaches otherwise, and i quoted.

This is because you are not relying on Muslim sources for interpreting and understanding the book. In addition, the historical records we have bear this out…we would do well to remember that Christians and Jews could live in peace with rights in their societies for most of recorded history; in our own “christian” dominated lands, Jews were regularly butchered (despite some noble efforts on the part of the Church) and Muslims met the same fate.

Now that this has been reduced to a debate about polygamy…seriously, is that worth creating strife over? Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists all practice different sexual and marital norms than we do, but I don’t see anyone picking on them for the time being. Respect and understanding will get us all much further towards the truth than searching for these kinds of differences to argue about.

 

[pro_universal]

Pro-Universal, you entered the discussion energetically, but when it came to faith statment, you left…strange but no surprise…still waiting for your answer anyway.

It did. I am more busy during some times of the day than others. My response is the same: You already have seen my faith. Demanding that I repeat a magic sentence is silly.

inJesus, I’d be interested to hear about your experience growing up in the Arabic speaking world. Where are you from, and what was your experience being a Christian there? Perhaps that will shed some light on your attitude towards Muslims. Would you mind sharing?

 

[inJESUS]

inJesus,

Read the link I posted to you above. It is a long, well documented, well written, and well reasoned explanation of the verses according to a traditional Muslim understanding. You will notice the difference in tone and quality from the anti-Muslim sites immediately, and I hope you do take the time to read the entire piece.

sure i will.

This is because you are not relying on Muslim sources for interpreting and understanding the book. In addition, the historical records we have bear this out…we would do well to remember that Christians and Jews could live in peace with rights in their societies for most of recorded history;

bro, did you even read the ayas i quoted?? we are BLASPHEMERS, UNJUST, PERVERTED AND WE WILL BURN IN HELL…ISN’T THAT CLEAR ENOUGH THAT MOHAMMAD DID NOT RESPECT US NEITHER PROMISE US PARADISE??
as for Christians living in peace, it is not true during the Ottoman Empire for example…Christian Syrian monks fled to Lebanon and Christians in Lebanon used to hide in caves in fear from conversion or death.

in our own “christian” dominated lands, Jews were regularly butchered (despite some noble efforts on the part of the Church) and Muslims met the same fate.

please do not tell me you are talking about the Crusades!

Now that this has been reduced to a debate about polygamy…seriously, is that worth creating strife over?

yes sure coz muslims say mohammad came to confirm the prophets including Jesus and i am showing that mohammad is confirming neither the OT neither Jesus regarding polygamy and other things.

Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists all practice different sexual and marital norms than we do, but I don’t see anyone picking on them for the time being.

Jews do not have polygamy as well…i dont care about the others…

Respect and understanding will get us all much further towards the truth than searching for these kinds of differences to argue about.

should i accept and understand opposite teachings by someone who claims to “confirm” my scriptures and morality?

 

[pro_universal]

inJesus,

The verses on violence are dealt with specifically in the fatwa.

as for Christians living in peace, it is not true during the Ottoman Empire for example…Christian Syrian monks fled to Lebanon and Christians in Lebanon used to hide in caves in fear from conversion or death.

This should be clearly false to you, considering the numbers of christians and Jews that persisted living in the Ottoman Empire right up until it collapsed after WWI. Before secularization, there was more religious freedom there than in Europe.

should i accept and understand opposite teachings by someone who claims to “confirm” my scriptures and morality?

You don’t have to believe in it in order to understand what the teaching actually is. Just like protestants don’t have to be Catholic to learn what the teaching actually is.

 

[inJESUS]

It did. I am more busy during some times of the day than others. My response is the same: You already have seen my faith. Demanding that I repeat a magic sentence is silly.

is it silly to proclaim Jesus your Lord, Catholic bro? why? am sorry, but i don’t buy it you are Catholic…

inJesus, I’d be interested to hear about your experience growing up in the Arabic speaking world. Where are you from, and what was your experience being a Christian there? Perhaps that will shed some light on your attitude towards Muslims. Would you mind sharing?

my attitude towards muslims stems basically from the quran…reading the quran, i realized that it opposes Jesus teachings yet claims to confirm it…and reading in the Bible about false prophet, false spirits ecc, and applying them to quran, they matched…but i even went further into reading the heretical nazaritic teachings and i found them in the quran…

As for my personal relationship with muslims, well it’s usually normal, mainly because they are muslims by name…sometimes i hear stupid remarks like allah’s curse on you lool coz am wearing a cross and stuff like that …but the muslims in my school used to eat my sandwiches ( mortadella, ecc), used to wear normal clothes…no praying, no mosque…so i just didn’t know anything about islam from them coz they dont know it…even the Christian women i know who are married to muslims are still Christians and their children are baptized with Christian names…so basically i knew quran by myself, reading and searching coz muslims, at least in my city, are not real muslims… our family friend is a muslim, but as well , doesnt practice it…he only prays on friday as a duty but thats it…so my personal experience is usually normal except some silly ones you meet on the street…

usually i stick to Christian neighborhood coz i feel more at ease…if, during the summer, i go to a muslim neighborhood wearing without sleeves for example, i see them all gaze at me…these kinda attitudes bother me so i just dont go there…

In conclusion, muslims go to our schools, restaurants, pubs, universities, even religious sites…so i encounter them in Christian cities, not in muslim ones…we are not minority over here, maybe thats why…i hear that the situation of Christians in other muslim dominated countries is less fortunate…sometimes even killed…So yes the attitude of millions of muslims throughout the world bothers me…i feel sad when i hear that Christians are being killed but its no surprise coz Jesus warned us that this will happen…did i answer your question?

 

[inJESUS]

inJesus,

The verses on violence are dealt with specifically in the fatwa.

i’d love to hear of a new fatwa issued by all moslem sheikh saying that killing non-moslem is forbidden !

This should be clearly false to you, considering the numbers of christians and Jews that persisted living in the Ottoman Empire right up until it collapsed after WWI. Before secularization, there was more religious freedom there than in Europe.

bro you dont know what you are talking about…
Christian Syrians fled to Lebanon and the Lebanese Christians used to hide in caves…you can see the caves where they used to hide and you can read their writings about killing and forced conversions.

You don’t have to believe in it in order to understand what the teaching actually is. Just like protestants don’t have to be Catholic to learn what the teaching actually is.

i understand perfectly what the quran teaches about polygamy ecc…this is my main point right now…as for violence, the quran is not clear about this peace doctrine…nobody argues the peace in Jesus’ message but millions argue the peacedoctrine of mohammad…truth is not equivoval…a true message of peace should be clear…i personally am still waiting the day when muslims issue a fatwa forbidding the killing ( except in official war to be fair).

 

[pro_universal]

i’d love to hear of a new fatwa issued by all moslem sheikh saying that killing non-moslem is forbidden !

There are literally hundreds. Look at the one I linked above.

Christian Syrians fled to Lebanon and the Lebanese Christians used to hide in caves…you can see the caves where they used to hide and you can read their writings about killing and forced conversions.

Lebanon was part of the Ottoman Empire until it collapsed. There is plenty of historical evidence to back this up, along with the continuous practice of Christian religion and application of christian family law (to christians). I’m guessing that you are from lebanon…think of it this way: How on earth are there still so many Christians from Lebanon if for 1000 years the Turks would not permit its practice?

As for fatwas on warfare…read the link. That’s an exemplar of the standard teaching.

 

[inJESUS]

There are literally hundreds. Look at the one I linked above.

yes i read have of it…it’s good…but what is more important is that ALL muslim scheikh should issue a fatwa on the behalf of ALL muslim nations, stating that killing is forbidden…the internet does not solve the problem…it should be made known publically…is it hard?

Lebanon was part of the Ottoman Empire until it collapsed. There is plenty of historical evidence to back this up, along with the continuous practice of Christian religion and application of christian family law (to christians). I’m guessing that you are from lebanon…think of it this way: How on earth are there still so many Christians from Lebanon if for 1000 years the Turks would not permit its practice?

this is the standard muslim response…if…why…I’m telling you that these people were persecuted and you can read their writings and you can see their caves…am talking history here…

to sum up before i go, am not interested whether the killing in quran is in context or not…i just want this killing to stop…as for the general moral teachings of mohammad, they are agaisnt Jesus’ teachings…this fact cannot be denied…hence the Bible calls him anti-Christ…muslims can worship whatever they want…all we non-moslems want is that the violence stops…whether some quote the quran to condone killing or not, its not the issue…if muslims believe its a religion of peace, let them prove it outloud.

PS: why on earth did you say you are Christian?

God bless and see you later.