Islam

[freesoulhope]

Justice2006:

inJESUS:

So i can assure now, with absolutely no doubt, that those who say islam respect us are either liars or do not know their book or good people who disregard this negativity in quran.

/QUOTE

Mr. inJesus,

Koran/Islam respects only those who truly follow the true message of Jesus Christ and do not defeat the main purpose of sending Prophets/Messengers.No Prophet of God came to die for our supposed sins which we did not commit. No child is born with sin. All are born sinless. It is only later we choose either to remain sinless or indulge in sinful acts.

You have been fooled and lied to my freind. We are all born without God in are hearts, We are all born without the grace of God. We all sinners, this is the teaching of the old testment, this is the teaching of judaism. You are either ignorant of your own teaching, or you your self has exposed the teachings of muhammed as a lie. God is not liar. God said we are all sinners, that doesnt mean that we are born evil, it means that we are born with out God in us, we are with out grace. Adam and eve where perfect, they fell in to imperfection and we are now cursed to be born in that state imperfection, we are born in a state of sin. When Adam and Eve where forced out of the garden of eden, it wasnt just the garden we where driven away from, We where driven from the “tree of life”, the thing that keeps us etenaly in comunion with God spiritually and i believe physically. Did you know that? why would God keep us away from the tree of life? isnt it is so that we do not live forever in sin. so why do you think that we are not born sinners?.

 

[Justice2006]

freesoulhope:

You have been fooled and lied to my freind. We are all born without God in are hearts, We are all born without the grace of God. We all sinners, this is the teaching of the old testment, this is the teaching of judaism.

Dear freesoulhope

The ideas that “we are all born sinners” or “born without grace of God” are actually teachings/results of false reading of your own Books (Old and New Testament).

An objective, honest, impartial, sincere reasearch of the Bible gives totally different view than what you guys have been indoctrinted by your church from your childhood.

Which religious Jewish group believes in the filthy idea of all babies being born with sin which they did not commit?

Jews have their own theology based on the Old Testament and other books, such as Misnah, Talmud. And the funny thing is you don’t follow the Laws of Torah yet you keep Old Testament with your Bibles, just to “prove” the so-called Godhead of Jesus by hook or by crook. Do Jews believe that Jesus was God?

No one is born with sin.

Are you saying all babies who died soon after their birth or in their childhood will burn in Hell forever because they were born with a sin, which they never committed?

Are you saying that the Most Mercifull and Most Beneficient God let babies born with sins?

What are you talking Dear freesoulhope?

 

[freesoulhope]

Justice2006:

Dear freesoulhope,

Is that the reason, the Papacy in the past make Jews’ life miserable by either mass massacring them or throwing them out from their homes from Christian “peaceful” lands that these poor God Choosen People had to take refuge in Muslims/Arab lands where they were sheltered and honored as their cousins/people of the book?

Is that the reason your peaceful civilised Christian terrorist Adolf Hitler killed millions of Jews based on his religious convictions?

Who honored Jews with the titles such as “Christ-killers” and “Killers of our Saviour”?

Do you think Jews really believe that Christ was God?

What are you talking? Which reliable Jewish source agree with the crucifixion of Christ?

what ever fualts that are in man cannot be used to justify your belief system, i do not blame the muslim religion for the bombings or killings done in the name of god. you are playing with emotions to prove a point. unfortunatly for your augument, it would only fool sombody that is ruled by thier emotions( unfortunatly for them). God will come and destroy everyone that will not yield to his will, he has destroyed whole nations that have refuesed to live acording to Gods will. Many may will go to hell FOREVER because they chose to live outside Gods will, many will suffer a whole lot more then what any human can do to to sombody for what ever reason.
Many will and have called God evil, a murderer, but you dont believe this, do you? you are a very cunning person using and abusing peoples emotions, if i was a snake i might even aplaude you

 

[brotherhrolf]

Stop! Everyone take a deep breath and let us look at this not from theology but from history. We know concretely that there are in situ Roman accounts of the crucifixion of one Jesus bar Joseph. Right? We know without a shadow of a doubt that Roman legions were in control of Jerusalem that Passover. We know from extant historical records that Jesus bar Joseph was brought before Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurater of Palestine. Yes? Is this not history? Now, let us discuss the Romans. Were they not methodical? Was their discipline reknowned across the known world at that time? Yes? We are agreed? Can’t argue with the historical record. OK. Simple logic, simple fact. Jesus was crucified per Roman orders. Right? All on the same page? Anyone who knows the least bit about the Roman legions knows that when an order was given, that order was completed. Jesus bar Joseph was crucified upon the orders of Pontius Pilate. The Koran can state otherwise until the cows come home. Jesus WAS crucified. So, I reject your assertion that Jesus did not die upon the cross. Anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge knows that when a procurator says do something, the legion will obey. Do some historical research you people of Islam! When you can present a decent historical argument based upon the historical record come back. Other than that, as Bill the Cat would say, phbbtt!

 

[freesoulhope]

Justice2006:

Dear freesoulhope

The ideas that “we are all born sinners” or “born without grace of God” are actually teachings/results of false reading of your own Books (Old and New Testament).

An objective, honest, impartial, sincere reasearch of the Bible gives totally different view than what you guys have been indoctrinted by your church from your childhood.

Which religious Jewish group believes in the filthy idea of all babies being born with sin which they did not commit?

Jews have their own theology based on the Old Testament and other books, such as Misnah, Talmud. And the funny thing is you don’t follow the Laws of Torah yet you keep Old Testament with your Bibles, just to “prove” the so-called Godhead of Jesus by hook or by crook. Do Jews believe that Jesus was God?

No one is born with sin.

Are you saying all babies who died soon after their birth or in their childhood will burn in Hell forever because they were born with a sin, which they never committed?

Are you saying that the Most Mercifull and Most Beneficient God let babies born with sins?

What are you talking Dear freesoulhope?/QUOTE]

This is what you are saying. Nobody has ever said that unborn babys go to hell. God will do what he wants, that is out side of are will and the will of the child. We are against abortions, nowhere do we say that unborn babys will go to hell if they are aborted.
You are again leading on to your own undestanding, and chooses scripture that pleases your own veiw of reality. You have failed to give any anwser that proves within reason, that God would have any use for islam, so what you have done is, taken away the idea that we are born in sin, in order to take away the need for jesus. then you have bullied my emotions in order to enflict emotional harm and put me in a state of despair, hoping that im ignorant enough to full for you lies. You have been emotionally decieved my freind. And you have put your faith in the perceptions of men or a man that you want me to believe was given a vision of God but doesnt forfill any religion, it has no purpose. many religions have been founded like this. What prophecy spoke of mahammed ? What prophesy in the bible doesnt speak of the comming of the messiah? YOU dont believe that you need jesus.
But that doesnt anwser the qeustions that i gave you, you have mearly call Chrsitians and jews lyers in order to make your faith have meaning, its your interpretation not Gods. you claim that you know gods affairs, imposssible! only the son of god know s god because he is god, and it is partly because of people like you making up there own interpretations that Jesus was sent to save us. God have mercy on you my brother. God bless you

 

[Justice2006]

freesoulhope:

what ever fualts that are in man cannot be used to justify your belief system, i do not blame the muslim religion for the bombings or killings done in the name of god.

Even if you blame all Muslims for the supposed bombings/killings (which is nothing comparing to the more than 50 million killings of so-called “Christ-Killers” [Jews] and others…by a Catholic–Adolf Hitler and the mass massacring of “Killers of your Saviour” by your Holy “Infallible” Papacy), does not make all babies sinfull.

Babies are babies…they are like angels.

What this question has to do with emotions, Dear freesoulhope?

Lets say you were dead right after your birth, you think you will burn in Hell forever for a sin/crime you never committed?

And also, do you think even Jesus was born with sin because he too was 100% man?

Please use your God-given common sense and think objectively, while answering the questions.

 

[freesoulhope]

You are twisting what i am saying. which tells me you have no intrest in what i am saying. You want islam to be seen as a peacfull religion, and from what i know they are like any other religion except for the message. you have yet again failed to give a reasonable awnser to my qeustions. No child that is born and dies before they can make a willfull choice, Are subject to the same laws as us, people choose to go to hell by refusing to be in communion with god. being born in to sin is to be born with a condition, it is contracted from are first parents. If you are born perfect, this would not stop you from sinning, since adam and eve sined when they where in a state of perfection. Being born in to Sin and sinning are not the same. If your born with God in you, then you know that he is real amd his grace is with, you are in perfect communion with him, because he is with you, adam and eve knew God, because he was there with them, they didnt need faith or had to learn about gods existence. When you are born you have no knowledge of God other then what people teach and what your experiences are, which means you make your way in the world by your self, untill you choose to have God in you life but even then it is a matter of faith. To be born in sin, is to be with out God, because sins of the parents are on the children. We are born sinners because we inherit the fallen state of are first parents, they nolonger had the grace of god and his perfection in them, this also effected them phyiscally, people are born deformed and imperfect, my sister has brain damage and can only say a few words. Now, am i to believe that a loving God would allow this curse to befall my sister? No you wouldnt. We are born in sin, in a imperfect state of existence, where we are encoraged to live in a state of sin.

 

[Justice2006]

Dear freesoulhope,
Instead of answering my straight forward question, it is you who is diverting your and mine attention to the other unrelated issues, which I did not ask you to lecture me.

I don’t need a Catholic theology lecture. You can believe in whatever you are indoctrinated.

People who sell their products, too believes or atleast advertise their product as if thier product is the BEST. But of course it is not necessarily that their product is the Best and only option.

I repeat my question, and please answer yes or no:

**Lets say you were dead right after your birth, you think you will burn in Hell forever for a sin/crime you never committed? Why would Most Merciful God, put you in Hell forever?

If no, then where the Most Mercifull God will keep you? In Paradise? Or somewhere in the middle of Hell and Paradise (if there is such place!)?

And also, do you think even Jesus was born with sin because he too was 100% man? **

No lecture please, I need simple straight forward answer, Dear freesoulhope.

 

[Reuben_J]

Brother Justice, with due respect, there are things that you may want to clear first here.

Justice2006:

Just imagine, prior to your Church there were other groups in the Christiandom. You can call them whatever you like based on your peculiar teachings/traditions of your church. But the fact remains…there were many groups and all of them had different views as to the nature of Jesus and his message.

Personally I would go along with you in saying this because this position is held by many protestant Christians. They don’t believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the church that began from the time of Jesus, a fact which Catholics believe.

Justice2006:

On the one hand you have your Church view which contradicts all those early previous groups thus you call them heretics. But their heresy is according to your (Church’s) mind/view. In their view you are heretics/idolators.

When you are talking about heretics, the Church you mentioned here includes protestant Christians. (Protestants are not heretics). The Church’s view is of course that Jesus is divine and human, simple. Others who believed differently were the heretics.

The heretics and the Church could set up their own churches respectively; no one can deny their right to do so then.

Justice2006:

There is a group called Unitarians, who opposes your view of Jesus. They consider Jesus as a man/Prophet only.

The heretics according to the Church.

Justice2006:

And there is a multitude of various groups of Protestants who like to interpret Bible from their own in order to make some sense because to them your Catholic view is not right view.

You are jumping to the 16th century now. The Protestants began after the reformation.

Justice2006:

Because the result of this belief has been that, as many interpretations exist as there are individual thinkers, and many of these interpretations contradict each other; since the Holy Ghost cannot contradict Himself, He cannot be the guide of these interpretations, and therefore, this belief of these Protestants is false.
{ drbo.org/catechism.htm#lesson14 }

From this you can see, all Protestnats are rejected as believers in false interpretation/reasoning because as per your Catechism:
Question: Whom do we have to interpret the Bible for us?
The Catholic Church interprets the Bible for us.

Question: Is it natural that we should have a guide in interpreting the Bible? Quite natural, just as in America, we have the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution of the United States. The difference is that the Church is infallible and the Supreme Court is not!

Question: So the Church cannot make mistakes in interpreting the Bible?
No, for she is under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

{ drbo.org/catechism.htm#lesson14 }

You seem to mix all these up, or maybe it is me. I can’t understand you. The Protestants differ mainly in certain doctrines and in the handling of the church, that is the papacy.

Other than that they believe in the same doctrine. For example, the Holy Trinity. In fact mainline Protestantism does accept the Apostles’ Creed. By now you’d know the Apostles Creed, anyway. Maybe they’d just change the upper case of the Catholic Church to lower case.

to be continued/…

 

[freesoulhope]

Justice2006:

Dear freesoulhope,
Instead of answering my straight forward question, it is you who is diverting your and mine attention to the other unrelated issues, which I did not ask you to lecture me.

I don’t need a Catholic theology lecture. You can believe in whatever you are indoctrinated.

People who sell their products, too believes or atleast advertise their product as if thier product is the BEST. But of course it is not necessarily that their product is the Best and only option.

I repeat my question, and please answer yes or no:

**Lets say you were dead right after your birth, you think you will burn in Hell forever for a sin/crime you never committed? Why would Most Merciful God, put you in Hell forever?

If no, then where the Most Mercifull God will keep you? In Paradise? Or somewhere in the middle of Hell and Paradise (if there is such place!)?

And also, do you think even Jesus was born with sin because he too was 100% man? **

No lecture please, I need simple straight forward answer, Dear freesoulhope.

I told you, a baby is not subject to the same laws as sombody who willfully sins, and is at the mercy of the father. my sister is autistic, and has brain damage, she will not go to hell if its my fathers will, but this doesnt change the fact that we are born with out god and that we are deprived of comunion with him from the day of are birth. Sin is like a genetic disorder, nobody asks to be born with the sins of there parents and nobody asks to be born with a genetic illness but its there. Jesus was not born with sin, Jesus was not a sinner, if you want to know the teachings of the Catholic church then there are other threads and sites like catholic.com, that has all the anwsers. I have been jenerous and have tried to reason with you but if you Dont even believe that we are born sinners then what is the point of us discussing this. im out of here!
God bless, hope that the holy spirit guides you to the truth.

 

[Reuben_J]

…/continuation and end.

Justice2006:

Thus for an independent person all these views of your numerous denominations, sects and cults are nonsense because they all blaspheme eachother but all claim to have got Holy Spirit yet ALL of them go in different directions and like to see their opponents in the Hell-fire.

You generalize too much here. Just read the many versions of the Bibles yourself, and what differences you see there? Very minimal. Mainly on the usage of words in translation. At least not on the divinity of Jesus.

Justice2006:

The only solution to this dilemma is to read your Bible, objectively. But when you do an honest research, you will find contradictions, inconsistencies and improbabilities in all versions of the Bibles. These do not allow you to reconcile all the contradictory reports and narrations of Jesus and his own “uttered” words.

There are no contradictory reports on Jesus in the Christian Bible. Catholics are asked to read the Catholic’ version simply because of the variable translations into the vernacular languages.

Justice2006:

There is only one way in it and that is to go by the main reason of Jesus’ mission, i.e his Prophet-hood. And that is he came not abolish the law or the Prophets but to fulfill and restore. If you keep/take this main aim of his prophethood and try to reconcile all other reports as much as the texts of the Bibles allow, you will reach to the Koranic conclusion.

That would fulfill the Islamic intention nicely, but the fact still remains that the Quran doesn’t follow Jesus’ teaching. Here the argument would begin…. The Bible is corrupted and the Quran is not. The sayings of Jesus in the Bible actually were not. It were written there to fit the thinking and the selfish action of the Church of the perhaps 1st and 2nd century.

No Christians would accept this. No way that the Quran could be right and the Bible (NT) wrong. The NT was written by material witnesses of Jesus. The things they wrote were by the inspiration God himself who inspired them on what to write. Considering everything the same, the book that is written by material witnesses is always better that by people some 600 years later.

Justice2006:

Thats why honest and sincere research by the learned people of Christiandom and even from Jews, eventually lead them to embrace Islam as the only left right choice which fulfills the main aim of Jesus Christ (may God’s peace be up on him).

Certainly only the Muslims themselves who will believe this.

Islam is wrong on Jesus because it does not have a history about God and His people and His promises to them. When you dismiss the Bible, this is what you get. So what reference do you have on God’s earlier promises? Nothing. Thus you cannot understand why Jesus needed to die and why he is the Son of God.

Peace.

Reuben.

 

[Justice2006]

freesoulhope:

I told you, a baby is not subject to the same laws as sombody who willfully sins, and is at the mercy of the father. my sister is autistic, and has brain damage, she will not go to hell if its my fathers will, but …

Dear freesoulhope,

I did notice what you said earlier. But I was looking for a straight answer.

Still I did not recieve a clear answer from you because: you said :

**a baby is not subject to the same laws as sombody who willfully sins, and is at the mercy ** of the father.

From this though it seems to me that you did realise the fallacy in your church’s view of “original sin” but still you are saying that babies are “at the mercy of the father”. I have no idea what this mean. Because you are not clearly telling me that babies will go to the Paradise. By using the words “at the Mercy…” you are either keeping yourself under an illusion or trying to confuse me.

My belief is that all babies regardless of where they are born and to whose parents they are born even those illegitimate babies born outside the wedlock or due to incest or fornication, ALL, if they die in their childhood, will go to the Paradise. There is no question of “at the mercy of God Almighty” because all are born in a state of Islam thus they are Muslims. Islam means submitting our will to the Will of God. And a *Muslim * means the one who submitted his/her will to the Will of God according to his/her level.

Do you agree with my above view?

 

[Justice2006]

Dear Reuben,
I will answer your post(s), if time allows me. Let me first deal with brother freesoulhope.

 

[freesoulhope]

Justice2006:

Dear freesoulhope,

I did notice what you said earlier. But I was looking for a straight answer.

Still I did not recieve a clear answer from you because: you said :

**a baby is not subject to the same laws as sombody who willfully sins, and is at the mercy ** of the father.

From this though it seems to me that you did realise the fallacy in your church’s view of “original sin” but still you are saying that babies are “at the mercy of the father”. I have no idea what this mean. Because you are not clearly telling me that babies will go to the Paradise. By using the words “at the Mercy…” you are either keeping yourself under an illusion or trying to confuse me.

My belief is that all babies regardless of where they are born and to whose parents they are born even those illegitimate babies born outside the wedlock or due to incest or fornication, ALL, if they die in their childhood, will go to the Paradise. There is no question of “at the mercy of God Almighty” because all are born in a state of Islam thus they are Muslims. Islam means submitting our will to the Will of God. And a *Muslim * means the one who submitted his/her will to the Will of God according to his/her level.

Do you agree with my above view?

It has not been revealed to me or the church, that if a baby is born and dies, what will actually happen. I dont personally believe that a baby will go to hell and i dont know if it will go to some other place of existence, there for it is what ever pleases the father, who am i to dictate the fathers will, i only know what is written, and what is tuaht by the church. father sent jesus to die for are sins, so that through him we could be saved. Jesus is the second adam, through adam we all sinned and died, through jesus we are raised up in to eternal life, we are sinners, other wise what would be the point of god dying on the cross and being ressurected from the dead?

 

[freesoulhope]

i am a christian there for i believe that jesus is the son of god and is god as apart of the holy trininty, if i die being a man of free will, with out god, then i will go to hell, theres no qeustion about it. Human beings are born without the grace of god. i was born with out the knowledge of the father and was given a choice. I was born in a state that ment i was not in comunion with the lord.
i was born with the sin of are first parents, we suffer for there choice, ther choice broke are comunion with god, otherwise we would still be in the garden of eden and we would not be suffering for a choice that they made for the whole of humanity. if you find that unfair, that is between you and god. As i said before, you can find most of these awnsers in catholic. com. I dont believe a baby will go to hell, And it is unlikley that god being a god of love, would not save the child. The same with other religions, it would not suprise me if i saw a devout muslim in heaven, but that is not for me to know untill i get there. Godbless you and peace be with you.

 

[Justice2006]

freesoulhope:

It has not been revealed to me or the church, that if a baby is born and dies, what will actually happen. I dont personally believe that a baby will go to hell and i dont know if it will go to some other place of existence, there for it is what ever pleases the father, who am i to dictate the fathers will, i only know what is written, and what is tuaht by the church.

Dear freesoulhope,

So, in other words, there is no clear answer as to babies going where exactly after their death, according to the Catholic theology/view or it is you who have no full knowledge of your Church’s views?

You can perhaps confirm from your Catholic officials and let me know if it is you who have no full knowledge.

I must know this because to me, it is a very serious/vital question. A clear answer to this question can solve many “mysteries” and can save lot of time when most Christian missionaries indulge in “debating/arguing”.

 

[Justice2006]

freesoulhope:

Jesus is the second adam, through adam we all sinned and died, through jesus we are raised up in to eternal life, we are sinners, other wise what would be the point of god dying on the cross and being ressurected from the dead?

So according to you, those who were born and died prior to Jesus’ birth are not saved and all of them except babies, will go to the Hell since they did not believe in Jesus nor Jesus was with them?

How about all those Prophets of God prior to the birth of Jesus? They too go to the Hell?

 

[freesoulhope]

The church untill recently tuaght that they went to a place other then heaven, a place made specifically for them, but was not hell.
if you have been watching the news, the church are saying that they simply dont no, and that they are in the mercy of god, and that we should trust in god, that he will do what is according to his will which is good. A baby is born a sinner, but that sin is due to condition not actions. there for if the child doesnt have a fair chance, then the child will be freed from the sins of are first parents, “original sin”. i will studie some more and come back so you know exactly what the Church feels about it.

 

[Justice2006]

Dear freesoulhope,
I will appreciate if you let me know the exact position of your Church.

 

[freesoulhope]

Justice2006:

So according to you, those who were born and died prior to Jesus’ birth are not saved and all of them except babies, will go to the Hell since they did not believe in Jesus nor Jesus was with them?

How about all those Prophets of God prior to the birth of Jesus? They too go to the Hell?

please wait for me to do some studying to find out what the church “exactly” teaches on this matter. Or you can go to Catholic.com.
if you want to find error, its better that you find error at the site i have just given you. Any error you find by asking me qeustions will
only be due to my ignorance, not the fualt of the church.