Islam

[Justice2006]

Dear freesoulhope,

I will wait for your officially confirmed answer.

 

[freesoulhope]

Believe it or not, Acording to the catechism of the Catholic church,
Christ died and went down to sheol, which means hell in hebrew, in greek it means hades.
Qoute:
Catechism) paragraph 1.
632. The frequent New Testement affirmations that Jesus was, “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to resurrection. :477
This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s decent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experience death and in his soul, joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he desended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.478

1. Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”- because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical,as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man lazarus who was receieved into " Abraham’s bosom".480" It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited thier savior in Abrahams bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482

634 " The gospel was preached even to the dead".483 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. "484 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by destroying "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.“485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds " the keys of death and hades”, so that " at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. "486

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the king is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began… He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and eve, captive with him-He who is both thier God and the son of eve… " I am your God, who for your sake have become your son…I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."487

I have plenty more please be patient, if you intrested. Other then that i have exausted my mental capacity to teach, i will leave some more text that will awnser your qeustions. if you have any more Qeustions, leave them, i will look it up and give you awnser to the best of my knowledge. Im going to bed.

 

[freesoulhope]

In Brief.

636 By the expression " He descended into hell", the Apostles’ Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil “who has power of death” (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his devine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the “just” who had gone before him.

 

[Justice2006]

freesoulhope:

In Brief.

636 By the expression " He descended into hell", the Apostles’ Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil “who has power of death” (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his devine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the “just” who had gone before him.

Dear freesoulhope,

How the “dead Jesus” went down to the realm of the dead and how he descended into hell?

Did Jesus do all this by his own or someone else took his soul and then take him to hell? If someone took his soul not him, then are you saying that God is not able to take his own soul?
If you say God was taken to the Hell by someone else, then what kind of an Eternal God is this who was taken to the Hell by someone else? And who was that person? An another God? Whoever took your God to the Hell must be more powerfull than your God (Jesus)? No?

Obviously hell is hell not a place to live with peace. No? each and every corner and part of the hell should be filled with fire and various kinds of punishments for various types of criminals such as from ordinary criminals such as theives, robbers to highest level of mass massacring world renowned criminals such as Hitler and Missolini etc. No?

Or is there any palce in hell where it’s dwellers can take some rest or deep breath and then again be ready to get punished?

According to your Catechism, “dead Jesus” descended into hell. Now the question arises, when “dead Jesus” was in hell, did his body received any kind of punishment of hell?
If yes, then what happened to his body after getting punishment of hell? hell is not a joke, keep in mind!
You believe that Jesus was God, right? and you must also believe as per your Church’s teachings that “dead Jesus” must die as a God and not as a man, in order to “carry” your and all of Catholics’ sins, such as the Papacy’s sins who did not allow Jews to live with peace in her ruling lands.
So, if Jesus did indeed die as God Almighty and went to Hell, did he really suffer/taste the punishment of Hell? If not, then what kind of that Hell was? If yes, then do you really believe that Holy God Almighty was punished by His own created Hell which is actually created by Himself to punish various criminals from ordinary thieves and robbers to Hitler or Missolini type criminals?

Please answer to each and every point of my post.
Thankx

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Mr. inJesus,

Koran/Islam respects only those who truly follow the true message of Jesus Christ

First : what are the true teachings of Jesus? do you have manuscripts?

Second : islam disrespects those who consider Jesus the Son of God hence all Christians. Enough said, agree?

and do not defeat the main purpose of sending Prophets/Messengers

Jesus fulfilled the OT…what on earth did mohammad fulfill? absolutly no one prophesized mohammad. Furthermore, he contradicted the previous prophets.

.No Prophet of God came to die for our supposed sins which we did not commit.

you still have a long way with Jesus’ role.

No child is born with sin. All are born sinless. It is only later we choose either to remain sinless or indulge in sinful acts.

why did allah cast Adam from heaven? isnt it coz he sinned? so you mean allah creates you sinless yet puts you in a sinful world and later judges you? what kind of deity is this that creates you with absolutly no guilt yet puts you in a test, knowing that many wont make it?

Jesus did not came to die for people like Hitler or Missulini. All these Christians no matter what they believe, go to the Hell-fire. Now you ask yourself, if they go to the Hell, then for which sins, Jesus “died”?

Jesus died instead of all people…people, being sinful, cannot make it to heaven only by their deeds…they had to pay for their sinfulness which should have been death if it were not for Jesus.

Your attitude is worst than those Scribes and the Pharisees who gave hard time to Christ and he had to use so many WOES and even the very harsh words such as “ye snakes” Ye fools"…and repeatedly "woe to you Scribes and Pharisees…

if you knew the Pharisees’, they are just like muslims.I am not muslim, thank you Lord.

Did we not say enough with Christianity on this thread? do you really want the Moderator to put limits ?

 

[inJESUS]

Dear freesoulhope,

Is that the reason the bulk of the Jews did not

accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah and they are still waiting for their Messiah, who in thier minds, is to come for the first time and give them what they deserve? many Jews did not accept him and many did…the first ones to accept were jews…besides, it is irrelevant…if the Jews did not accept Jesus, it is because they expected a literal king, not a religious one…so whether all Jews accepted or not it is irrelevant…Jesus is The Messiah.

Is that the reason, the Papacy in the past make Jews’ life miserable by either mass massacring them or throwing them out from their homes from Christian “peaceful” lands that these poor God Choosen People

had to take refuge in Muslims/Arab lands where they were sheltered and honored as their cousins/people of the book? irrelevant.

Is that the reason your peaceful civilised Christian terrorist Adolf Hitler killed millions of Jews based on his religious convictions?

Hitler loved islam more than Christianity coz Christianity did not give him a trigger for what he was doing but Islam did…read history.

Who honored Jews with the titles such as “Christ-killers” and “Killers of our Saviour”?

your point exactly?

Do you think Jews really believe that Christ was God?

millions yes.

What are you talking? Which reliable Jewish source agree with the crucifixion of Christ?

many non-Christians wrote about the crucifixion which is a historical fact.

 

[inJESUS]

Dear freesoulhope

The ideas that “we are all born sinners” or “born without grace of God” are actually teachings/results of false reading

of your own Books (Old and New Testament). do not change the words of the Bible…Jesus himself said we are all sinners…Genesis is the account of man thrown out from God’s presence because of his sin.

An objective, honest, impartial, sincere reasearch of the Bible gives totally different view than what you guys have been indoctrinted by your church from your childhood.

Which religious Jewish group believes in the filthy idea of all babies being born with sin which they did not commit?

Christianity is the fulfilment of Judaism…the OT says we are all sinners.

Jews have their own theology based on the Old Testament and other books, such as Misnah, Talmud. And the funny thing is you don’t follow the Laws of Torah yet you keep Old Testament with your Bibles, just to “prove” the so-called Godhead of Jesus by hook or by crook.

we follow Jesus’ interpretation and fulfilment of the OT…by the way, allah quoted the Talmud, why?

Do Jews believe that Jesus was God?

Jewish-Christians yes…orthodox Jews no.

No one is born with sin.

thats why you were cast from heaven? if we are sinless, why are we on earth instead of with God?

Are you saying all babies who died soon after their birth or in their childhood will burn in Hell forever because they were born with a sin, which they never committed?

no.

Are you saying that the Most Mercifull and Most Beneficient God let babies born with sins?

sin= original sin= our detachment from God.

 

[inJESUS]

Even if you blame all Muslims for the supposed bombings/killings (which is nothing comparing to the more than 50 million killings of so-called “Christ-Killers” [Jews] and others…by a Catholic–Adolf Hitler and the mass massacring of “Killers of your Saviour” by your Holy “Infallible” Papacy), does not make all babies sinfull.

Hitler apreciated Islam for its violence…Hitler was a pro- violence, pro-Islam, according to his biographer.

Babies are babies…they are like angels.

thats why mohammad ordered their killing as per hadith…or is it corrupt?

What this question has to do with emotions, Dear freesoulhope?

Lets say you were dead right after your birth, you think you will burn in Hell forever for a sin/crime you never committed?

we dont say that.

And also, do you think even Jesus was born with sin because he too was 100% man?

Jesus was born miraculously, without sin.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice, for the LAST TIME i tell you, this thread is about islam…if you have questions about Christianity, you can answer them in the Catholic threads not here. If you insist on digression, i’ll have to ask the moderator to put you on track.

My questions are still not answered :

Jesus’ crucifixion according to quran
2- If allah preserves his books, why didnt he preserve the OT and the NT.
3- why did mohammad attest of the truthfulness of the Bible at his time
4- if mohammad came to confirm the previous prophets, why did he oppose their teachings.

**
PS: please everyone on this forum, do not respond to Justice’s answers about Christianty coz this thread is about Islam.**

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Justice, for the LAST TIME i tell you, this thread is about islam…if you have questions about Christianity, you can answer them in the Catholic threads not here. If you insist on digression, i’ll have to ask the moderator to put you on track.

My questions are still not answered :

Jesus’ crucifixion according to quran
2- If allah preserves his books, why didnt he preserve the OT and the NT.
3- why did mohammad attest of the truthfulness of the Bible at his time
4- if mohammad came to confirm the previous prophets, why did he oppose their teachings.

**
PS: please everyone on this forum, do not respond to Justice’s answers about Christianty coz this thread is about Islam.**

Mr.inJesus, your questions are in Red and my reply is in Black:

Jesus’ crucifixion according to quran

Koran is from the same God who sent His Revelations to the previous Prophets of God (may God’s peace be upon them all).

It is only God who knows the exact past happenings. Thus He informed in the Koran that those who tried to crucify and kill Prophet Jesus (pbuh) have no certain knowledge, it was only appeared to them so. In fact they killed him not.

Now when you read Biblical narrations, you will find contradictory statements which proves the Koran’s claim more and more.

2- If allah preserves his books, why didnt he preserve the OT and the NT.

OT and NT are not Books revealed by God thus there is no question of God preserving them.

Revelations were given to the previous Prophets of God such as Torah was revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) and in it there were laws/commandments of God about living a peacefull and just life.

The whole purpose of revealations of God was to guide humanity.
God tested human beings in different ways. It is for God to do/carry out His business/Wisdom the way as He likes. It is not for us, as His creatures to dictate Him or expect from Him as we wish. He is not bound by our laws/expectations.

People of previous Prophets did not preserve the revelations given to them in purity/pure form. They started distorting them as soon as their Prophets were gone from this world. They used to write things from their own by mixing some words of God and attributing their corrupted work to God for various reasons. It was like Tabloid newspaper stories or bias Media’s false reports to deceive ignorant people and to control or have power.

Thus we see there is not a single Gospel in Jesus’ own mother tongue. There is no certain way to find out what exactly Prophet Jesus (pbuh) preached or say. You don’t even know what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) said when he was about to “die” on the cross. Did he say ELI, ELI or ELOI, ELOI ?

All four Gospels (three synoptics and Johns’) give contradictory and different statements about Prophet Jesus (pbuh). Because all these are not the Word of God per se.

God atleast know what is His Name.

It is inconceiable that God revealed/inspired His Name as Eli to one author of the Gospel and Eloi to another one.

God is Eternal, Everlasting…He doesn’t die. The one who says that God died is not God’s revelation. Even a child with basic knowledge can understand this.

So when people did not preserve the Word of God of their national/local Prophets, then God sent His Final and Last Messenger whose Message is meant for whole Mankind thus this Final Message which is called the Koran, has to be preserved and it is preserved since 14 hundred years.

.

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

3- why did mohammad attest of the truthfulness of the Bible at his time
4- if mohammad came to confirm the previous prophets, why did he oppose their teachings.

Mr.inJesus, your questions are in Red and my reply is in Black:

continued from my last post…

3- why did mohammad attest of the truthfulness of the Bible at his time

Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did not attest truthfulness of the Bible.

Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) attested only the fact that God did reveal His revelations to the Prophets prior to him. Such as Prophet David (pbuh) was given Zaboor, Prophet Moses (pbuh) was given Taurait (Torah), and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was given Injeel.
All Muslims believe in this fact as a principle that all these revelations were from God Almighty and this belief is part of every Muslim’s main articles of faith. Without this declaration, no Muslim is a Muslim.

But what Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did not attest is what Christians/Jews have in their hands in the name of *The Holy Bible * because this which contains OT and NT is not the Word of God per se. There are some portions of lost revelations of God in it but the whole truth is lost by those who tried to re-write after it was either destoyed/lost.
Most authors of the Books of New Testament are still unkown to the Christian experts of the Bible. The truth is lost in the falsehood of the unknown writers of the books of the Bible.

Jeremias 8:8 ** How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.**
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=8&l=8&f=s#x ]

There are stories in the books of the Bible that are half told, incomplete and make no sense. And not to mention the contradictions, inconsistencies, improbabilities which resulted thousands of different denominations, sects and cults in the world of Christiandom and they all use the various versions of the Bible to blaspheme eachother and condemn their opponents to Hell-fire.

4- if mohammad came to confirm the previous prophets, why did he oppose their teachings.

Confriming the fact that God did select some people among us to be His Prophets and revealed His law/commandments, does not mean that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is obliged to confirm the corrupted text of the Bible, which is not the Word of God per se.

Since Bible is not the Word of God per se, thus there is no question of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) attesting it’s whole contents because the Bible is not from God Almighty. There may be some portions of Previous revelation of God in it. But in order to find out you need to use the Koran as a Standard and yard-stick because the Koran is **the Final and Last ** uncorrupted Book of God.

Now, Mr. inJesus, if you suspend my membership of this forum, I won’t be surprised because you are a disgrace and a bad name to your faith.
I would rather like to discuss with other Catholic members who are sincere and can represent their faith to the best of their abilities and make this dialogue a dialogue instead of a confrontation with your sheer ignorance and bias attitude and unncessary shoutings with hollow claims.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Koran is from the same God who sent His Revelations to the previous Prophets of God (may God’s peace be upon them all).

It is only God who knows the exact past happenings. Thus He informed in the Koran that those who tried to crucify and kill Prophet Jesus (pbuh) have no certain knowledge, it was only appeared to them so. In fact they killed him not.

so they killed someone else? quran is the final revelation from allah…how come it failed to clarify A BIG MISCONCEPTION OF US BLASHPEMERS?

Now when you read Biblical narrations, you will find contradictory statements which proves the Koran’s claim more and more.

Wishful thinking…are you a fan of answering-christianity by chance?

2- If allah preserves his books, why didnt he preserve the OT and the NT.

OT and NT are not Books revealed by God thus there is no question of God preserving them.

Revelations were given to the previous Prophets of God such as Torah was revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) and in it there were laws/commandments of God about living a peacefull and just life.

the Torah is the OT…why didnt allah preserve it?

The whole purpose of revealations of God was to guide humanity.
God tested human beings in different ways. It is for God to do/carry out His business/Wisdom the way as He likes. It is not for us, as His creatures to dictate Him or expect from Him as we wish. He is not bound by our laws/expectations

irrelevant…

People of previous Prophets did not preserve the revelations given to them in purity/pure form. They started distorting them as soon as their Prophets were gone from this world. They used to write things from their own by mixing some words of God and attributing their corrupted work to God for various reasons. It was like Tabloid newspaper stories or bias Media’s false reports to deceive ignorant people and to control or have power.

why did allah allow that his true words be corrupted?

Thus we see there is not a single Gospel in Jesus’ own mother tongue. There is no certain way to find out what exactly Prophet Jesus (pbuh) preached or say. You don’t even know what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) said when he was about to “die” on the cross. Did he say ELI, ELI or ELOI, ELOI ?

why did allah allow that Jesus’ message disappeare from this world and why on earth didnt he tell you what this true message is ? as for Eli and Eloi it is because of different language?

All four Gospels (three synoptics and Johns’) give contradictory and different statements about Prophet Jesus (pbuh). Because all these are not the Word of God per se.

sure…you might open a new thread on that…i see so far you did not open a new thread, why?

God atleast know what is His Name.

sure bro…allah just like the aramaic word Allaha

It is inconceiable that God revealed/inspired His Name as Eli to one author of the Gospel and Eloi to another one.

loool its not his name!!!

God is Eternal, Everlasting…He doesn’t die. The one who says that God died is not God’s revelation. Even a child with basic knowledge can understand this.

sure open a thread as well.

So when people did not preserve the Word of God of their national/local Prophets, then God sent His Final and Last Messenger whose Message is meant for whole Mankind thus this Final Message which is called the Koran, has to be preserved and it is preserved since 14 hundred years.

back to our question : why did allah allow the corruptness of his previous 3000 years message and not quran?

.

 

[inJESUS]

Mr.inJesus, your questions are in Red and my reply is in Black:

continued from my last post…

3- why did mohammad attest of the truthfulness of the Bible at his time

Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did not attest truthfulness of the Bible.

Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) attested only the fact that God did reveal His revelations to the Prophets prior to him. Such as Prophet David (pbuh) was given Zaboor, Prophet Moses (pbuh) was given Taurait (Torah), and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was given Injeel.
All Muslims believe in this fact as a principle that all these revelations were from God Almighty and this belief is part of every Muslim’s main articles of faith. Without this declaration, no Muslim is a Muslim.

But what Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did not attest is what Christians/Jews have in their hands in the name of *The Holy Bible * because this which contains OT and NT is not the Word of God per se. There are some portions of lost revelations of God in it but the whole truth is lost by those who tried to re-write after it was either destoyed/lost.
Most authors of the Books of New Testament are still unkown to the Christian experts of the Bible. The truth is lost in the falsehood of the unknown writers of the books of the Bible.

Jeremias 8:8 ** How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.**
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=8&l=8&f=s#x ]

There are stories in the books of the Bible that are half told, incomplete and make no sense. And not to mention the contradictions, inconsistencies, improbabilities which resulted thousands of different denominations, sects and cults in the world of Christiandom and they all use the various versions of the Bible to blaspheme eachother and condemn their opponents to Hell-fire.

· sura 5:43 ‘How come they to you for judgement when they have the Torah, wherein are contained the commandments of God?’

· s5:44 ‘We [God] did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and light…’

· s5:46 ‘We sent Jesus…confirming that which was revealed before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and light…’

· s5:68 ‘[Jews and Christians] have no guidance until you observe the Torah and the Injil [Gospel]’

· s4:136 ‘Believe in God and His messenger [Muhammad], and the Scripture which He revealed to His messenger [the Qur’an] and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime [the Bible]’

· s10:91 ‘If you [Muhammad] are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before you’

· s15:9 ‘We reveal the Reminder, and Lo! We truly are its Guardian [ie the Bible is guarded against corruption by God]’

· s6:34 ‘There is none to alter the Words of Allah’; s10:64 ‘There is no changing of the Words of Allah.

Do you really mean that the Bible at mohammads time did not exist when mohammad himself is asked to read them?

4- if mohammad came to confirm the previous prophets, why did he oppose their teachings.

Confriming the fact that God did select some people among us to be His Prophets and revealed His law/commandments, does not mean that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is obliged to confirm the corrupted text of the Bible, which is not the Word of God per se.

Since Bible is not the Word of God per se, thus there is no question of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) attesting it’s whole contents because the Bible is not from God Almighty. There may be some portions of Previous revelation of God in it. But in order to find out you need to use the Koran as a Standard and yard-stick because the Koran is **the Final and Last ** uncorrupted Book of God.

Now, Mr. inJesus, if you suspend my membership of this forum, I won’t be surprised because you are a disgrace and a bad name to your faith.
I would rather like to discuss with other Catholic members who are sincere and can represent their faith to the best of their abilities and make this dialogue a dialogue instead of a confrontation with your sheer ignorance and bias attitude and unncessary shoutings with hollow claims.

So you mean that the teachings of Moses and Jesus disappeared from this planet?? why would people corrupt the teachings?and why did allah allow that billions follow false teachings?

I wont suspend you coz am not a Moderator! this is the third time i say this!!! should i repeat it a thousand times? yes go ahead, post your answers and others will answer you.

 

[inJESUS]

If it was corrupted, was this by Jews or Christians? Since neither were on speaking terms with each other (s2:113 ‘The Jews say the Christians follow nothing [true] and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing [true], yet both are readers of the Scripture’, see also 5:82), how could they agree to alter every single Bible identically?

The New Testament books were widely distributed as soon as they were written. By the 6th century, there were 230 biblical manuscripts in existence, translated into 8 languages (Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Gothic, Nubian, Georgian and Ethiopic). How could a conspiracy to change each Bible have been logistically possible? Why was there no record of this happening, and why did nobody try to stop it or hide authentic Bibles?

The ‘Jesus Papyrus’ of Matthew 26, displayed in Magdalene College and recently dated to AD 68, was found in Egypt. Presumably Matthew was still alive when it was written - so why did he not try to correct it if it had been tampered with? Why did the Christians not remove embarrassing stories like Peter’s denial of Christ (Matt 26:69-75) or Paul and Barnabas’ disputation (Acts 15:39)?

Significantly, the early Muslim commentators (eg. Bukhari, al-Razi) were all agreed that the Bible could not be changed since it was God’s Word and several centuries passed before Muslims claimed that the Bible had been changed, when they carefully read the stories in the Qur’an and noted that they were different from those in the Bible

For example s2:42 ‘Confound truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth’ was said to have come to Muhammad after two Jews were brought to him for judgement, having committed adultery. The other Jews wanted to test him to see if he, as a prophet of God, knew what was in the Torah. So he asked for a Torah and got a boy to read the punishments for disobedience. When the boy reached Lev 20:10 (‘if a man commits adultery with another man’s wife…both must be put to death’) the Jew accused of adultery slammed his hand over the verse so the boy could not read it (source: Abu Dawood 4449 (Arabic) or 4432 (English)). A far cry from corrupting the text of the Bible.

Other verses say that a group of Jews used to listen to Scripture then change it - but (i) it was only a group, not all the Jewish people around the world let alone in Mecca; (ii) they must have had the original genuine copies in order to have been accused of changing it; and (iii) they did not change the written text, but simply told Muhammad that it said things which were not there, in order to mislead him

If you say ‘Your Bible has been corrupted’, we should challenge you to prove it, by asking when, how and why. if our muslim friend cannot support his accusation, it must be withdrawn.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice, ever read about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Here is a summary for you :

The Dead Sea Scrolls (copied between 130 B.C. and A.D. 70) consist of 40,000 fragments. Five hundred books have been reconstructed from them, one hundred of which are from the Old Testament in Hebrew. The only book of the Old Testament not represented is the book of Esther. Included is a complete manuscript of the Hebrew text of the book of Isaiah copied in 125 B.C., which is almost identical to the Masoretic text of A.D. 916 (the Leningrad Codex of the prophets), indicating the unusual accuracy of the Masoretes as copyists over the period of one thousand years.4

This great discovery proved that the OT we have now is the same one written thousands of years ago…which proves muslims’ claim DEADLY WRONG

 

[Justice2006]

Development of Christianity

The Catholic Church claims that it has received its doctrine directly from Simon Peter, who gave it to Paul, whose missionary work forms the basis of the religion. This is all completely untrue. The fact of the matter is that Peter stayed loyal to the Jerusalem Church, who were to come to be known as Gnostics, and that Paul stole, corrupted, and misinterpreted their traditions.

First of all, it is important to note that Paul never knew Jesus in life, and had never heard his name until after the crucifixion. It is claimed that Paul’s conversion occurred while he was persecuting Christianity, but this was not a goal of the empire during his time. It is more likely that he was working to eliminate the remaining elements of the Jewish independence movement, in which Jesus was heavily involved, as I have shown. At any rate, he had opportunity to come into contact with James the Just, as it is James who he is introduced to immediately after “being struck blind” (Acts 22:14).

From James he would have learned the secrets of the teachings of Jesus, but as a properly Hellenized Roman citizen, he lacked the proper context for those teachings. He turned the Gnostic ritualised ressurection10 into a literal reality for Jesus, and this created incredible friction between the two sects. Simon Peter refuted the idea by saying, “Wherefore observe the greatest caution, that you believe no teacher, unless he brings from Jerusalem the testimonial of James, the Lord’s brother.”

The Dead Sea Scrolls document the contention of James and Paul from the point of view of James’ supporters, calling him the “Teacher of Righteousness” and giving Paul the name "The Spouter of Lies."11 For Paul’s part, he was unabashed about his activities, “I made myself a Jew to the Jews to win the Jews…To those who have no law I was free of the law myself…I made myself all things to all men” (1 Corinthians 9:20-25). Paul’s goal was to make his new religion available to all people, Jewish and Gentile. It was this accessibility that led to its success.

The followers of both sects would continue to gain converts, as well as spite each other, clear up until the mid-4th century. At that time Emperor Constantine I, himself a member and head of the cult of Sol Invictus until his deathbed, began looking for a way to keep his fracturing empire together. Seeing that the hodge podge of cultures and religions in the empire contibuted to its weakness, Constantine decided that a single state religion would be the best way to control the people, and he settled on Christianity.
By this time Christianity was the most popular cult in all Roman lands, thanks to the missionary work of Paul and his work to make it accessible to all peoples. It was beset by its own problems, however, as no single doctrine could be agreed upon, so Constantine called the Council of Nicae in 325. After several months of wrangling, a concensus was formed, and the Catholic canon was produced. Constantine then sponsored the eradication of all heresies, including Gnosticism, until the form of Christianity that we know today was the only religion left in the Western world. It should come as no suprise that no copies of the books of the Bible predate the fourth century, as the Church proceeded to edit them at this time to suit its needs.
[courtesy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A213247#back9 ]

 

[inJESUS]

Development of Christianity

The Catholic Church claims that it has received its doctrine directly from Simon Peter, who gave it to Paul, whose missionary work forms the basis of the religion. This is all completely untrue. The fact of the matter is that Peter stayed loyal to the Jerusalem Church, who were to come to be known as Gnostics, and that Paul stole, corrupted, and misinterpreted their traditions.

First of all, it is important to note that Paul never knew Jesus in life, and had never heard his name until after the crucifixion. It is claimed that Paul’s conversion occurred while he was persecuting Christianity, but this was not a goal of the empire during his time. It is more likely that he was working to eliminate the remaining elements of the Jewish independence movement, in which Jesus was heavily involved, as I have shown. At any rate, he had opportunity to come into contact with James the Just, as it is James who he is introduced to immediately after “being struck blind” (Acts 22:14).

From James he would have learned the secrets of the teachings of Jesus, but as a properly Hellenized Roman citizen, he lacked the proper context for those teachings. He turned the Gnostic ritualised ressurection10 into a literal reality for Jesus, and this created incredible friction between the two sects. Simon Peter refuted the idea by saying, “Wherefore observe the greatest caution, that you believe no teacher, unless he brings from Jerusalem the testimonial of James, the Lord’s brother.”

The Dead Sea Scrolls document the contention of James and Paul from the point of view of James’ supporters, calling him the “Teacher of Righteousness” and giving Paul the name "The Spouter of Lies."11 For Paul’s part, he was unabashed about his activities, “I made myself a Jew to the Jews to win the Jews…To those who have no law I was free of the law myself…I made myself all things to all men” (1 Corinthians 9:20-25). Paul’s goal was to make his new religion available to all people, Jewish and Gentile. It was this accessibility that led to its success.

The followers of both sects would continue to gain converts, as well as spite each other, clear up until the mid-4th century. At that time Emperor Constantine I, himself a member and head of the cult of Sol Invictus until his deathbed, began looking for a way to keep his fracturing empire together. Seeing that the hodge podge of cultures and religions in the empire contibuted to its weakness, Constantine decided that a single state religion would be the best way to control the people, and he settled on Christianity.
By this time Christianity was the most popular cult in all Roman lands, thanks to the missionary work of Paul and his work to make it accessible to all peoples. It was beset by its own problems, however, as no single doctrine could be agreed upon, so Constantine called the Council of Nicae in 325. After several months of wrangling, a concensus was formed, and the Catholic canon was produced. Constantine then sponsored the eradication of all heresies, including Gnosticism, until the form of Christianity that we know today was the only religion left in the Western world. It should come as no suprise that no copies of the books of the Bible predate the fourth century, as the Church proceeded to edit them at this time to suit its needs.
[courtesy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A213247#back9 ]

irrelevant am afraid.

 

[inJESUS]

Let me just clarify something. Paul, Peter, Luke , Barnabas and James wrote letters and preached at the same time…so if one was wrong, the others should have rebuked him…yet we see them attesting. Now we can go back to our previous discussion.

I noticed that you havent posted your answers under any new thread; here it wont work coz it is name Islam…otherwise the Moderator will ask you to be on track.

 

[Justice2006]

Mr. inJesus,
It is you who is raising irrelevant questions and in order to refute your basless accusations I had to respond you with counter questions and proof.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Mr. inJesus,
It is you who is raising irrelevant questions and in order to refute your basless accusations I had to respond you with counter questions and proof.

what does your previous post has to do with :
1-Jesus’ crucifixion
2- mohammad attesting the Bible
3-mohammads claim to confirm yet oppose
4- allah who preserves his books.