Islam

  • Thread starter Thread starter gambinosyn
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
inJesus said:i dont have enough time but you obviously did not differentiate between Jesus the man and Jesus the God.

Hi inJesus,

If you differentiate between Jesus the man and Jesus the God, then it simply means that they are two totally different pesonalities that are compelling you to differentiate.
So, as soon as you are* ready or willing to differentiate* between these two, your idea of Trinity of Perect One Godhead is voilated/contradicted thus you are in fact not any more a true believer in the dogma of Trinity.

But if you say: then well, I don’t want to differentiate between Jesus the man and Jesus the God, then the unification of Jesus, the man and Jesus the God is an impossibility. Why? Because, first, for God who is The Creator, cannot become His own creature. In order for God to become His own creature, the creature must be equal in all respect/dimensions to His Existence. But our Creator is THE CREATOR and not a Creator. THE CREATOR is UNIQUE in all of HIS ATTRIBUTES/DIMENSIONS. But the moment you think THE CREATOR can be transformed or incarnated as a or the man, then you have to answer: who created THE CREATOR? Because after Him becoming a or the man, His Unique attribute of Uniqueness in all resepct/Dimensions is not Unique any more
Now, answer who created THE CREATOR?
 
Quote:
But we don’t find Gospel passages saying Jesus was God.

inJesus replied:

we find plenty unless you want to hear Jesus saying : hey people! am God! worship me!

Hi inJesus,
I do like to hear Jesus saying “I am God, worship me”. Please show me where in the Gospels Jesus said this?
Do you think this question makes no sense? If Jesus was indeed God, he must have said this plenty of time or atleast once in his life time.
 
Peace to you teddybear2000.

This is going to be an uphill task but I guess I just give some time for you and address some of your thoughts.
40.png
teddybear2000:
If you differentiate between Jesus the man and Jesus the God, then it simply means that they are two totally different pesonalities that are compelling you to differentiate.
So, as soon as you are* ready or willing to differentiate* between these two, your idea of Trinity of Perect One Godhead is voilated/contradicted thus you are in fact not any more a true believer in the dogma of Trinity.

But if you say: then well, I don’t want to differentiate between Jesus the man and Jesus the God, then the unification of Jesus, the man and Jesus the God is an impossibility. Why? Because, first, for God who is The Creator, cannot become His own creature. In order for God to become His own creature, the creature must be equal in all respect/dimensions to His Existence. But our Creator is THE CREATOR and not a Creator. THE CREATOR is UNIQUE in all of HIS ATTRIBUTES/DIMENSIONS. But the moment you think THE CREATOR can be transformed or incarnated as a or the man, then you have to answer: who created THE CREATOR? Because after Him becoming a or the man, His Unique attribute of Uniqueness in all resepct/Dimensions is not Unique any more
Now, answer who created THE CREATOR?
Click to expand...
What do you mean by “differentiate”? Is it to make distinct the difference between the dual personalities of Jesus?

We believe Jesus is true God and true man.

Jesus is truly God and truly man, composed of body and rational soul; that he is the same substance with the Father in his divinity, of the same substance with us in his humanity, like us in every respect except for sin. (ref. Council of Chalcedon, A.D. 451).

Jesus possesses two distinct but inseparable natures, the divine and the human, united in one person. How are these 2 natures perfectly joined into one person? This remains a mystery. (Mystery is something greater than human mind can grasp). In essence God is a mystery except for the facts we know about him as been revealed to us.

Chalcedon could declare only that they ARE joined, not how. Creeds and theological definition about God or Jesus can distinguish what is true and what is false, but they can never exhaust the mystery of the reality of God and his plan.

When we speak of Jesus’ two natures, it would be easy to think of Jesus behaving like a split personality – at one moment doing something human, the next moment doing something only God could do. Those who followed Jesus did not perceive him this way because these 2 natures n Jesus worked together in perfect harmony. Jesus human nature and human will were so conformed to his divine nature and divine will that the two were joined into an inseparable harmony so that we can truly say that Jesus was one person, not two, but composed of a divine and a human nature.

The divine nature of Jesus Christ is perceived by us only as it is reflected through the fullness and perfection of his human nature. As a man, Jesus came to do the will of his Father, God. As the Son of God, he alone was capable of doing this perfectly, being the only – begotten divine person, the Son of God incarnate.

The eternal son also assumed a rational, human soul (CCC 471). Jesus possesses two wills, divine and human, which cooperate so perfectly that Jesus in perfect obedience to the Father and his plan of salvation, always will humanly whatever his divine will dictates.

Rational human soul also means he had a human mind and knowledge as the Son of God. How these 2 “minds” work together do puzzled Christians. What did Jesus, as one person, really know when he was on earth? How could his human knowledge, naturally limited, be reconciled with his omniscience as the Son of God?

In becoming man, the eternal Word of God truly did empty himself – just as he accepted the limitation of a human body, he also accepted the limitation of a human mind. In his human nature, Jesus had to grow in knowledge and learn many things from experience, since he was like us in all things except sin.

Yet, the Bible testifies that Jesus spoke of things that only God would know, such as his intimate knowledge of his Father in heaven (see Mt 11:27, Mk 14:36, Jn 1:18, 8:55). How do we reconcile these?

Simply. “By its union to the divine wisdom, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal” (CCC 474).

A clear example of the latter is found in Mk 13:22. In this text, Jesus was asked directly when the fulfillment of God’s Kingdom would come about. He answered that not even the Son knows this, but only the Father.

God bless.
 
40.png
Muslima:
I know that you are capable of bringing 70 other Hadiths that talk about hating christians and jews, but I reviewed all these hadiths and their origins with many shiekhs and I found that all these hadiths are fabricated and Rasoul Allah never uttered them, they were added even in Bokhary and Moslem by either radicals or haters of Islam.
Click to expand...
Are you saying to us that you are denying the Hadiths? Sorry if this question sound simplistic, but this is new to me, to hear a Muslim saying this.
40.png
Muslima:
These words goes for both, we are ordered to behave in well manners with every one, either Moslem or Non Moslem. When Islam spread in Syria, Egypt, Jerusalem, Iraq and all the Islamic countries since 1400 years. The rule of these countries turned out to the Muslims instead of Romans or Persians but the people were left every one to beleive what he likes, but the people of these countries embarced Islam gradually when they trated Moslems and saw the manners of Islam.
Click to expand...
And how was Islam spread? From what we know, it was uninvited by Christian countries like Eygpt, North Africa and Asia Minor. Not to mention their death at the hands of the ‘peaceful’ invaders! One of the biggest Christ churches, the Hagia Sophia was not given to Muslims voluntarily to be converted to a mosque. I think we see history with different visions here.
40.png
Muslima:
The Aya of killing the non beleivers it was also about a special tribe that fought the Prophet, they were like the outlaws in today’s society.
Click to expand...
Just a note. Jesus never asked his followers to kill non-believers. Something is not right here, if Muhammad was supposed to be the confirmation of the prophets before him.
 
40.png
teddybear2000:
Let me be clear to you, God never became a man nor there is a need to become a man. He chooses good people among men to guide the whole humanity.
Click to expand...
You need to learn history of God and His people. From the perspective of the Quran, yes you are right. But then again, does Quran have a history? No, it does not. So how does it understand God and His activities and promises with humans? I can understand why you say God never became a man or the need to, because Quran does not know the earlier history of God.
40.png
teddybear2000:
Because if someone thinks that God can become a man but not animal, then a clever man will ask: Can people spit on God who came to earth as 100% man?
Can sinners beat and kick God with their feet, who came to earth as 100% man?
I would say: see these are very serious questions. I cannot imagine God who is Holy and Good and Powerfull, can be beaten and spitten by the sinners.
Click to expand...
By the same token then Quran does not know the nature of God either.

The fact that it disgust you even to imagine that man can spit on God, it will tell you the enormity of the suffering of Jesus who, no sins of his own had to endure this humiliation in obedient to his Father, so that you and I can be saved from our sins and death. You (the Quran) think that on your own you can save yourself from the sins you committed. What do you think of God’s glory is? Is your effort in repentance sufficient to ‘pay’ God so that you will be accepted to heaven? Nothing we do can compensate what God does to us in his forgiveness. (Sorry, you don’t believe this. This is Christian belief)
40.png
teddybear2000:
God forbid to mention all these “possibibilities”.

It is really a very SERIOUS question, we all should think the implication of beleiveing that god can become a man (his creature).
Click to expand...
As far as we are concerned, it will be those who don’t believe who will face the consequence.

.
40.png
teddybear2000:
It is true that Pleaseanswer question is a Very Serious Question.

But If you think God can become a man and 100% perfect man, then can he commit sins or atleast a sin?
Click to expand...
If he wants to, yes, why not? But sins are hated by God and they don’t come from Him. Sins come from the evil one. And that’s serious blasphemy indeed, if we think that God would do the seeds of the Devil. God hates sins.
40.png
teddybear2000:
You would say no. Then I would ask: Well if God cannot commit sin then does he atleast have the ability to commit sin(s)?
Click to expand...
What hypothetical question! Look like it’s coming from one who is ignorant about God. And I’m sure that’s not like you. So your question is not sincere, my friend.
40.png
teddybear2000:
If you say yes God has the ability to commit sin but never sinned. Then I would ask: So atleast God has the weakness of commiting sin though he never sinned. Then God was not a 100% perfect man because he indeed had the weakness of commiting sin(s).
Click to expand...
Jesus has weaknesses as any human would have. The only exception is he DOES NOT sin.
40.png
teddybear2000:
If you say: well, he did not have the weakness of sin.
Click to expand...
Don’t know what you mean here?. He has weaknesses; I’m sure, as a human.
40.png
teddybear2000:
Then I would say God was not the man. Because the defintion of a man is the one who can commit sin and has the ability or weakness of commiting sin(s).
Click to expand...
The Quran may be telling you that. Your definition of a man has got nothing to do with Jesus. He is man with exception, like he does not sin. He was born of a virgin.

.
 
My friend, you are speaking from an Islamic mind. You are scandalized to hear what we believe which are abominations to you. So I can understand why you are saying the things you said. Just remember this – we don’t agree with Quranic/Islamic’ teachings and concepts, so what you’re saying are non-issue to us. You seem to be unable to reason independently outside the confinement of the concept of the Quran. If this assessment is correct, then I think you will have problem here discussing inter-religious issues.

A Christian here, sometime back rightly summed this up – we don’t ask you to agree or believe our doctrines, but at least to understand what they really are. They can be stupid or blasphemous to you, and that’s your opinion or the teaching of your religion that says so. But it’s important to understand our concept first. I don’t think it’s too difficult that it’s above your intelligence. Then discussion or argument would be smoother. We’ll not be wasting unnecessary time clarifying obvious misunderstandings and even if we do, it will be minimal.

May God bless you. Hope you will have fruitful and profitable time here in this forum. I’m sorry if some of the things I say may hurt your feeling. No offence meant.

Peace.

Reuben
 
Jesus Christ is true God and true man. As a man He has the “ability” to commit a sin. He has all the equipment, so to speak. He has a human will which has the ability to choose to follow God’s will or not. But since He is also truly God, obviously He is not going to commit a sin. His human will is completely aligned with the will of God.

The “ability” to commit sin is called free will. It is not a weakness. It is a gift and a glory. The problem with the human race is that we abused our free will to sin. Jesus Christ, being fully human and fully divine, realigns the human will with the divine will in His own person. There’s no “weakness” in the fact that He has a free will. Nor is there a lack of full humanity in the fact that His will is continually aligned with the will of God.

Jesus Christ is the perfect man precisely because He did not sin. What He was by nature, we are called to be by grace. You are right in singling this out as a difficult, paradoxical point in Christianity. But it is precisely because of this paradox that we are Christians. We have a God who became man, and who thus understands our every weakness from the inside, even though He consistently chose to use His free will for good. We have a priest (Jesus) who can truly mediate between human beings and God because He is fully human and fully divine.

Apparently you feel no need for such a God. Perhaps some day the Holy Spirit will lead you to feel differently–to long for a God who loves you enough to unite Himself to your very nature. Until then, peace be upon you.

The first Muslim with whom I ever had a religious conversation asked me this question. It was an important moment in the development of my own faith, because I realized that this is indeed the key question between Christians and Muslims.

Yes, I worship a God who excreted and urinated. I worship a God who created the material world and loves it so much that He entered into it. I worship a God who is not afraid of dirt and humiliation. That is a God worth living and dying for.

Because Jesus Christ is fully human as well as fully divine. As God He does not need to go to the toilet, obviously. But there is nothing about going to the toilet that is incompatible with divinity. It is not evil, it is not unworthy in any way. It’s just physically dirty and disgusting. But God is not afraid of that. God identifies with our weakness, with our dirtiness. God enters into every nook and cranny of our human life and transforms it.
 
No, because God *was *invisible when the Torah was written. God became visible to us in Jesus. He is not visible to us outside the person of Jesus. His essence remains invisible. But Jesus is the radiance of God’s glory made flesh. He is a real man who sweated and broke wind and went to the toilet. That is what God looks like when God becomes visible.

Yes, if you want to remain with the religion of the Old Testament. But Christians take the faith of the Hebrews one step further. We believe that the God whom the Torah describes as walking with human beings, entering into covenant with them, etc., went to the extent of sealing His covenant with us by taking on a human nature. This is an outgrowth of what the Torah tells us, not a contradiction of it. In the Old Testament, to be human did mean to lie, because all humans were sinful. But Jesus Christ broke that mold and showed us what being human really meant. He did not abolish the Torah, but He brought it to completion. The Torah was made for sinners and speaks to a world in which everyone is a sinner. Jesus Christ shows the way to a world in which to be human does not mean to be a sinner. Do you want to live in that world or not?

Here’s the real difference between us:
A God who is sheer power, incapable of weakness, is not a God I find worthy of worship. And frankly, while I recognize that the Muslims who riot and commit suicide bombings etc. to not speak for all Muslims, it does look to us Christians as if your worship of power has some unpleasant consequences. You can’t imagine a God who would be weak and humble, who would be despised and spat on. So it makes sense that your cultures tend to be based on honor and respect, and that any kind of disrespect is met with vicious violence.

I know quite well that Christians have also been violent on many occasions, and sometimes still are. But we have a very strong strand in our tradition, coming from Jesus Himself, that tells us to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies, to overcome evil by mercy and humility and forgiveness.

I don’t see that in Islam, and one of the reasons is that you reject the weakness and foolishness of the Incarnation. You can’t stand the idea of God on the cross, God being spat on, God going to the bathroom. So you have a religion in which God is great and terrible and distant, and human beings are God’s servants. We are God’s servants, but we are also His children and His friends. Our faith teaches us to have the courage to bear suffering and reproach without responding in violence; to identify with the weak and oppressed rather than the strong and triumphant; to love even those who insult and hate our faith itself. Yes, we rarely live up to this. But it remains an ideal that always calls us away from violence and revenge.

Please understand that I respect many things about Islam. I recognize that Islam teaches justice and mercy towards the poor and oppressed. I recognize that Islam places limits on war and violence. I recognize that Islam has a powerful mystical tradition that teaches that human beings can find union with God (though it seems to me that modern mainstream Islam has less room for Sufism than previous centuries did, and this bothers me). So what I’ve said above needs to be nuanced in all sorts of ways. I’m making this contrast simply to show you what I think the implications are of our belief in the Incarnation. When you reject the idea that God could be weak or despised, I can’t help but link that with the tendency of many Muslims to respond to even the slightest disrespect with violence.

Yours truly,

Edwin
 
40.png
Contarini:
Jesus Christ is true God and true man. As a man He has the “ability” to commit a sin.

The “ability” to commit sin is called free will. It is not a weakness.

We have a God who became man, and who thus understands our every weakness from the inside, even though He consistently chose to use His free will for good.

We have a priest (Jesus) who can truly mediate between human beings and God because He is fully human and fully divine.

Apparently you feel no need for such a God.

Yes, I worship a God who excreted and urinated.

I worship a God who is not afraid of dirt and humiliation. That is a God worth living and dying for.

Because Jesus Christ is fully human as well as fully divine. As God He does not need to go to the toilet, obviously. But there is nothing about going to the toilet that is incompatible with divinity.
Click to expand...
Hello Contarini,

This a WONDERFUL reply, I’ ve ever read/heard.

Congratulations !!
 
To All Members,

But my question is where are teddybear2000 and pleaseanswer ?

Are they still here or banned from the forum, so that they should not reply?

If they are banned, then it is really sad and unfair. I would like to read their responses to Reuben J and Contarini’s recent posts. I am sure teddybear2000 and pleaseanswermust have some good answers in their baskets.
 
40.png
Contarini:
** Yes, I worship a God [Jesus] who excreted and urinated.

As God He [Jesus] does not need to go to the toilet, obviously.**
Click to expand...
So, when Christ used to go for call of nature or to urinate, at that moment he was a human being and not God.

In other words there were moments, several moments I must say, in the earthly life of Christ when Christ was not God. Or was he at those moments too?

I am really confused now, would you please clarify?

I appreciate your time. I really want to know what in fact you believe. The more I know direct from you, the better I can understand your position.

God Bless you all.
 
40.png
Rational:
So, when Christ used to go for call of nature or to urinate, at that moment he was a human being and not God.

In other words there were moments, several moments I must say, in the earthly life of Christ when Christ was not God. Or was he at those moments too?

I am really confused now, would you please clarify?

I appreciate your time. I really want to know what in fact you believe. The more I know direct from you, the better I can understand your position.

God Bless you all.
Click to expand...
I’LL quote Reuben J again :

Chalcedon could declare only that they ARE joined, not how. Creeds and theological definition about God or Jesus can distinguish what is true and what is false, but they can never exhaust the mystery of the reality of God and his plan.

What do you believe in, if any?
 
Respected inJesus,
May God bless you. But I would like to hear from Contarini as I qouted his/her words and not yours.

If I qoute your words, then please feel free to reply in defense.

I appreciate your effort, though.God Bless you.
 
Reuben J:
Are you saying to us that you are denying the Hadiths? Sorry if this question sound simplistic, but this is new to me, to hear a Muslim saying this.

And how was Islam spread? From what we know, it was uninvited by Christian countries like Eygpt, North Africa and Asia Minor. Not to mention their death at the hands of the ‘peaceful’ invaders! One of the biggest Christ churches, the Hagia Sophia was not given to Muslims voluntarily to be converted to a mosque. I think we see history with different visions here.

Just a note. Jesus never asked his followers to kill non-believers. Something is not right here, if Muhammad was supposed to be the confirmation of the prophets before him.
Click to expand...
  1. Moslems, differenciate between Quran and Hadiths, The Quran was collected right after the death of Prophet, it is the word of Allah, the Moslems were receiting it and they wrote it down and made their children recite it so it went from one generation to another without change. During the life of the prophet no one wrote the Hadiths of the Prophet and after his death the Khalivas forbade the people to write the Hadiths in fear that at that early stage while they are still collecting the Quran and writing it down peole would start confusing and mixing Hadith with Quran, so the true word of Allah would have come changes. So, writing the Hadiths of the prophet began after 150 years of his death, it was collected through Rwat Al Ahadith, (Hadith tellers), When one of them heard of a Hadith, he must make sure of its sanad, sanad means the thread of those who told the Hadith from one generation to another, and then to make sure these people could truly have heard this, for instance some one may come and say I heard from X who heard from Y who heard from Z who heard from Abou Bakr (for example) that the prophet said so and so. Many Ahadith was written then by people who were aiming to harm Islam, they just say any thing and put it on the tongue of Prophet, so our sheikhs made us strict rules for making sure that the Hadith is right. For instance, you must find out the thread of tellers, in our case (x y z Abou Bakr) some times, it turns out by going back to history that y never met z or lived at his own age , or that x is no body any scholar new about him. The Hadith Sahih should be told by different 10 people, and these 10 should agree on the thread of tellers. Then the words of Hadith themselves are compared with the Quran, if these words contradict an aya or a Quranic command then its a false Hadith. So books of Hadith are filled with many Hadith that were connected to Prophet, but he never said them. This is something every Moslem knows. Enemies of Islam nowadays try to use such Hadiths to prove any thing they wish about Islam.
Of course, people of Minor Asia, Egypt, Syria, … other countries did not invite moslems to their countries, I would say this again, Moslems were comanded to make the word of Allah the upper word, means that no other AUTHORITY (again authority not people) would be higher than the authority of Allah, this is for the sake of not controlling the destiny of Moslems and their religion and accordingly the words of Allah by another power (Romans, Persians. Americans), that is what Moslems should fight for. But when war is over and Islam takes power, no civilian is ordered to be a Moslem or killed, Hagia Sophia church is only one case, it has circumstances, and the ruler at that time who did so was not obeying God, but hundreds of churches in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, North Africa goes back to the Roman age, no body turned them into mosques. In reading the history, the coptics in egypt, eastern christians in syria, lebanon and palistine welcomed the Moslems as they saved them from the torment and presecution of the Roman empire.
  1. Muhammad ordered to kill non beleivers if they are only corruptors, or making riots.
    2:193: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
    Mohamed followed Jesus in the main frame of his religion, but what Islam added is legalisation which is not found in the bible.
Peace be Upon You
Moslema
 
40.png
Muslima:
Mu
Mohamed followed Jesus in the main frame of his religion, but what Islam added is legalisation which is not found in the bible.

Peace be Upon You
Moslema
Click to expand...
can you elaborate please?
 
Reuben J:
My friend, you are speaking from an Islamic mind. You are scandalized to hear what we believe which are abominations to you. So I can understand why you are saying the things you said. Just remember this – we don’t agree with Quranic/Islamic’ teachings and concepts, so what you’re saying are non-issue to us. You seem to be unable to reason independently outside the confinement of the concept of the Quran. If this assessment is correct, then I think you will have problem here discussing inter-religious issues.

A Christian here, sometime back rightly summed this up – we don’t ask you to agree or believe our doctrines, but at least to understand what they really are. They can be stupid or blasphemous to you, and that’s your opinion or the teaching of your religion that says so. But it’s important to understand our concept first. I don’t think it’s too difficult that it’s above your intelligence. Then discussion or argument would be smoother. We’ll not be wasting unnecessary time clarifying obvious misunderstandings and even if we do, it will be minimal.

May God bless you. Hope you will have fruitful and profitable time here in this forum. I’m sorry if some of the things I say may hurt your feeling. No offence meant.

Peace.

Reuben
Click to expand...
Dear brother Reuben,
I highly appreciate what you are saying, I am completely aware that we are different, you regard many of my beleifs as wrong, the same way I regard many of your beliefs wrong too, this is normal and I am not at all offended by it. I am just trying to explain that the image that that many non moslems are having nowadays for Islam is not true and does not express the true Islam. I do not blame you for this. On the contrary, I am blaming Moslems themselves because they gave a bad image about themselves and their religion. I am just trying to say we may be different in beliefs but we are not bad and we do not see you bad.

Peace be upon you
Muslema
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top