Islam

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Hola Mr Justice2006,
Have you considered Matthew 25:29-30?

Gracias,
Rodrigo

 

[Justice2006]

To All those Judeo-Christians who** often ** pose the following type of questions to the Muslims:

inJESUS:

By the way, muslims quote from the Bible to prove whatever they want; but when they are refuted, they say: but the Bible is corrupt they even go to look for the false prophet in the corrupt Bible

Cyber Knight:

THEN why insist that you are able to interpret the OT (or NEXT NT) according to your own mind when you are not under guidance Holy Spirit? the only thing you should do and settle this dispute is to believe what we explained.

George Waters:

They don’t believe something, but will accept it’s validity to promote their own version.

Let me summerise the essence of all these types of questions/arguments, into one question. What you all basically ask is:

How can Muslims use Judeo-Christian Scriptures against the Jews/Christians when you believe that Judeo-Christian Scriptures are corrupted?

Very good question, and I must appreciate all those who raise this type of question(s) or something to this effect. Unfortunately, you guys don’t use your brian before posing it.

When Muslims, based on their Islamic pointview say: “Judeo-Christian Scriptures are corrupted”, what did they really mean by it, you must know it.

Like for example, if you say Italian Pizza is the best pizza in the world. Then you should know first what an Italian Pizza is all about and the more you know about it the better you can make your claim convinceable. Like if you know what are it’s ingrediant, it’s precise taste and how it is made, etc. Without knowing the whole nine-yards of it, your detail proof is either like splitting the hairs or mental gymnastics without any foundation. Then once you proved that Italian Pizza is the best in the world, does this mean that all other non-Italian pizzas are worthless, gabage and cannot be used to fill your belly?

I am sure you read newspapers every day or atleast get some news from various sources such as TV or Radia etc. Do you think or accept each and every word of news media as infallible or Word of God? Of course not, right??

Then, do you think all media channels are on same level as far as the reliablity of their contents is concerned? Of course not.

Some channels are considered more reliable/trustable and some are not even worthy to look upon.

But those channels which are considered not worthy to pay any attention, are they in fact TOTALLY unreliable? Can you say that each and every word of these unpopular channels is a lie/false/wrong? Of course not, right??

But if I ask you to prove me the unreliablility of a unpopular media channel; how you will prove it to me?

I think:
**-First you will use it’s own contents as an EXHIBIT -A, then compare them with the contents of major/more reliable media reports.

-Then you will pull contradictions in the contents of EXHIBIT-A by using it’s sensable words against it’s non-sensable words. Because obviously each and every word cannot be false/wrong.**

Now, think about theives, robbers and cheaters. Do you think all these are totally unreliable when it comes to dealing with them? A person may be a high ranking liar but that does not mean that he lies every second/all the time and his word is 100% unreliable.

The Scribes and the Pharisees used to accuse Jesus Christ, by misusing the words of the Torah. Does this mean that they were totally 100% liars? When it comes to quoting their Torah’s contents, they were right but the charges against Jesus were not right because what Jesus used to say/claim had nothing to do with their accusations.

There are religions in the world which are not acceptable to you such as Hinduism or Mormonism etc. You disagree with them and believe that there will be** no salvation ** for their followers, unless they all are baptized according to your specific rituals/formula and then believe/act as you do. But this does not mean that Hindu scriptures such as Vedas, Bhagwat Gita or Ramayana or even Manu Shastra do not contain a single word of truth. But if you have to prove the unreliablity of these HIndu books, how you will do it? One way is, you will use the contents of these books and see what makes sense and what does not make sense to the common sense of all people. Thus what makes sense can be used against what does not make sense. This is a natural way first step of reasoning to convince your opponent. But if you say that each and every word of all Hindu scriptures is false/wrong, then no religious or non-religious Hindu will ever bother to listen to you because there is no such relgion/relgious book which is 100% false/filled with 100% lies.

cont.

 

[Justice2006]

cont.

IF there is any such religion/relgious book ever exists that is 100% wrong/false, it can never attract a single reasonable person, let alone a multitude or millions of sincere and reasonable people for centuries.

So when Muslims say the books that Jews/Christains have in their hands, in the name of Holy Bibles, are corrupted, does not mean that each and every word of them is false and worng. Otherwise your books would never have had any impact on lot of people for centuries.

What is really arguable/debatable is:

**- How much is the corruption involved in your Judeo-Christian scriptures and by who and when?

• How we can distinguish between what is truth and what is false in them?
• What is the or a best criteria to make a clear distinction between the falsehood and truth?

These questions are the actual objective of Muslims and not the one you think due to a false impression/definition of “corruption”.**

The easiest and fast way to make you think and bring towards ultimate Truth of Islam is:

**-To use what is appeared true/makes sense, to the common sense against what makes no sense, within the contents of Judeo-Christrian scriptures.

• To use two different/distinct contradictory statements of the Holy Bibles by keeping in mind the whole concept or main reason/aim of all these relgious books and the context.
• Being critical/objective while reading any book to be fair and balance.**

.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

LOL hey justice2006, please open new thread about the topic you just brought up here. Your are now dealing about bible corruption! jump jump jump!!!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Dear Mr Justice2006,
It seems to me you are avoiding the topic of this thread, which you earlier admitted is ‘Islam’, in preference to other issues which is the textual integrity of the Bible or the character of Jesus Christ, whom I must remind you is also a prophet of Islam.

Please let us know if we should close this thread for lack of interest on your part. I would very much appreciate discussion on clear grounds, rather than this jumping up and down and sideways that you seem to be doing.

Gracias,
Cid

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Mr. Cyber Knight,

Let me tell you this: there is nothng metaphorical with the verse Isaiah 7:20. This verse is clearly telling you that your God of Love is going to shave **the genitals, the heads, the beards and every hair ** of God choosen people-Jews, with **a very specific Razor ** which He will hire not from Americans nor Africans nor Chinese nor Japanses but from Assyrians. There is really something special with that specific Razor that only Assyrians carry.

It is upto you to ask your God of Love directly when you are filled with the Holy Spirit:

**O God of Love, what is so special with that Assyrian Razor?

Why you cannot use any other Razor created by you yourself?

And why you have to HIRE it? Isn’t everything belongs to you?

Are you incapable of creating a more sophistacted RAZOR, better than the Assyrians?

How about using Japanese latest shaving machine? How you are going to shave the genitials of all those millions and billions of Jews?

Are you going to hold their genitals in your hand when shaving?

How you will shave their genitials if you don’t hold their private parts in your hand while shaving to remove every hair of their body?

Obviously, Jews have lot of hairs on their bodies unlike some other nations, then how you will shave every hair of their body such as hairs on their back private areas etc.

And finally, are you only going to shave Jewish men only or their women as well? If women too, then how you shave their women in front of their men, on that Day (the Day of Judgement)?**

Or you can ask your Holy infallible Papacy who is “under the direct guidance” of Holy Spirit; she me clarify it for you after consulting her Holy Spirit, because in her mind only she is under the inspiration of Holy Spirit thus she won’t allow any other un-infallible, non-Catholic to interpret her version of the Holy Bible.

Mr. Cyber Knight, you may be thinking I am joking, No…please read your Catholic Catechism, to make sure what I just said. Here I will qoute something for your convenience:

**Catholic Catechism…Lesson 14: ** Interpreting The Bible

Question 1. Is the meaning of the Bible so clear that anyone reading it, can readily understand it?
The Bible is by no means so easily understood: St. Peter himself tells us that it contains many things: “… hard to be understood …” (II Pet. III,16).

Question 2. Whom do we have to interpret the Bible for us?
**The Catholic Church interprets the Bible for us. **

Question 3. Is it natural that we should have a guide in interpreting the Bible?
**Quite natural, just as in America, we have the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution of the United States. The difference is that the Church is infallible and the Supreme Court is not! **

Question 4. So the Church cannot make mistakes in interpreting the Bible?
**No, for she is under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. **
drbo.org/catechism.htm#lesson14 ]

As to whether I found “any violent and strange verses in the NT”, see my next post.

.

you are a joker. We are telling you it metaphorical and you keep insisting by which authority? did you ever read in history that God shaved hairs? pathetic , just pathetic. Learn the idioms of 3500 back and stop making a joke of your posts.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Mr. Cyber knight,

Lets see what Jesus Christ is reported to have said by Saint Luke, under his Holy Spirit’s inspiration in the New Testament.

Gospel According to Saint Luke
Chapter 19 verse 26-27

26 But I [Jesus] say to you, that to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: and from him that hath not, even that which he hath, shall be taken from him.

27 But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.

Douay Rheims Bible
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 19]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 19])

Do you think, here:

**Jesus is lying or

Saint Luke is reporting wrong or

he was not under the inspiration of Holy Spirit, when he wrote the above verses?**

How can you reconcile the above statement of Jesus with your concept of Jesus being a “God of Love” and “non-voilent”** all the time?**

And also when Holy “infallible” Papacy was on a bloody compagain to get rid of innocent Children of God-Jews:

**was she under the guidance and inspiration of same Holy Spirit, at that time/period? and

Under what Testament’s instructions**()**, she made the lives of innocent Jews, miserable that they either had to get converted to Christainty or get killed or leave their homes/land forever and take refuge in Muslims/Arabs land?
**()**-----as per The Old Testament or the New Testament?!!

.

you either quoted this passage from stupid sites, or you just do not have the capacity to understand what a parable is…read verse 11 of the same passage:

11 As they were hearing these things, he added and spoke a **parable, ** because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately be manifested.

So neither Luke is a liar nor Jesus violent , it is just a parable…but as St. Paul said : speaking in them of
these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[inJESUS]

cont.

IF there is any such religion/relgious book ever exists that is 100% wrong/false, it can never attract a single reasonable person, let alone a multitude or millions of sincere and reasonable people for centuries. lets talk about the compilation of quran, agree?

So when Muslims say the books that Jews/Christains have in their hands, in the name of Holy Bibles, are corrupted

, does not mean that each and every word of them is false and worng. Otherwise your books would never have had any impact on lot of people for centuries. but mohammad attested to the Bible of Christians and Jews at his time and said that allah preserves his word whether Bible or Quran.

If allah only preserves the quran and allows the others to be corrupt, then he is a pathetic discriminator who loves to see people in hell.
If allah was not able to preserve the Bible just as he said, then he is not omnipotent.

The dead Sea Scrolls proved allah/mohammad a deceiver.

What is really arguable/debatable is:

The easiest and fast way to make you think and bring towards ultimate Truth of Islam is:

**-To use what is appeared true/makes sense, to the common sense **

against what makes no sense, within the contents of Judeo-Christrian scriptures. this passage makes absolutely no sense coz you cannot understand God by human “sense”…not to say that in quran as well there are things that make absolutely no sense.

• To use two different/distinct contradictory statements of the Holy Bibles by keeping in mind the whole concept or main reason/aim of all these relgious books and the context.

there are no contradictions…it is only testimonies from various writers who used different words to different audiance…to get a full idea , you must read them all…If they had the intention to write absolutely the same thing they would have done it…the fact that they did not yet had the same teachings proves their sincerity & truthfulness. I believe all these witnesses and not a book given to a single person to start a new religion coz the Biblical God NEVER did this with any biblical prophet…thats NOT how the Biblical God revealed His message for 3500 years. A single person who ONLY HIMSELF heard a strange spirit is suspect of great doubt coz this was never God’s way with His people.

• Being critical/objective while reading any book to be fair and balance.

that’s why we found dozens of passages in quran taken from jewish/Christian folklores & myths…Rodrigo will debate you on this topic if you want. And if you know arabic just tell me coz i got a great historical book for you.

 

[inJESUS]

Rodrigo Bivar:

I know, why don’t we talk about Islam? That’s the name of the thread, isn’t it?

Nos vemos después,
Rodrigo

let’s talk about islam, Justice, agree?

 

[Myangel]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Dear Mr Justice2006,
It seems to me you are avoiding the topic of this thread, which you earlier admitted is ‘Islam’, in preference to other issues which is the textual integrity of the Bible or the character of Jesus Christ, whom I must remind you is also a prophet of Islam.

Please let us know if we should close this thread for lack of interest on your part. I would very much appreciate discussion on clear grounds, rather than this jumping up and down and sideways that you seem to be doing.

Gracias,
Cid

You are not going to get your answers fron Justice2006, he has changed the subject so many times that he probably cant remember what the original questions are! :banghead:

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Myangel:

You are not going to get your answers fron Justice2006, he has changed the subject so many times that he probably cant remember what the original questions are! :banghead:

Justice2006 think we are stupid wanted to follow what he said and post lol without keep the original track and insist him to stay on it. Rodrigo was right…his debating standrard has drop to the level zero…and that is sad. Hope to see him on other forum in serious manner.

 

[freesoulhope]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Hola freesoulhope,
I don’t think competition is the cause of oppression. I don’t think capitalism is the cause of oppression. For the simple reason that the West competes against itself and against all third-world countries. But only Muslims feel oppressed.

Do poor non-Muslim Africans or South Americans not feel similarly oppressed by the West to become suicide bombers? No. Only Muslims do that because they have religious reasons to do so.

I also don’t think Muslim leaders simply interpret the Quran for their own nefarious ends. That would be putting too much onus on the powerful and absolving the less powerful of responsibility for evil acts. There is no reason for ordinary Muslims to be hoodwinked about their own religion by their own leaders. After all, they can just as readily read the Quran for themselves to find out if their leaders are lying to them or not. The truth is, all such acts of violence committed by Muslims can be justified by the Quran and hadiths.

What do you think Muslims do when they grow up? They learn their religion. The inordinate amount of time spent by Muslims learning Islam would astonish most Westerners. If you have lived in a Muslim country you would realize the all-consuming all-pervading influence of Islam on the daily lives of Muslims. One can’t even go to the toilet without reference to the Sunnah.

You did mention earlier that you think it is the Devil that corrupts some people to commit evil. I ask you why the Devil is having so much success with Muslims as compared to Hare Krishnas and Buddhists and anti-war pacifists?

Chau,
Rodrigo

I dont think capitilisom is the cause of opresion either but it most definetly supports it, and inflames it. Now, it is true that people make choices, and i dont think that oppresion is an excuse, but you dont see rich people abundently throwing themselfs off buildings and blowing up buses. I have only read the koran once out of respect for a my muslim freind who helped me out once, but i found alot of anti christian messages in it, mixed with religous and moral teaching. Alot of it had no factual surport, it just said that you must believe what they are saying. Thankfully im now a Catholic, but i cant say that islam is intentionaly violent when i dont know that it is. I know there in competion against Christianity and jews,( they want to establish islam as the true religion of god and take over the world) and they will use any means at thier disposal, but is suicide bombing apart of that? isnt it every religions purpose to convert the world? I dont know, but i dont want to cause of prejidice.

 

[Booklover]

I’ve asked this several times now, and don’t get a satisfactory answer:

The Quran states that the sun sets in a murky spring and that the stars were created as missiles to chase devils away.

Are these the words of God? Can the Quran be the real word of God?

Justice2006 replied that the Quran is only the Word of God in arabic and that translators in other languages have altered its meaning!

I think this is a very lame excuse, because if this were true Muslims would have complained about these erroneous translations.

That reply made by Justice2006 and my reply have both been deleted. I realize that I was tired by that time and my reply was sarcastic, therefore the deletions.
Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

Quran 18: 90 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…

Quran 37: 6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

Can someone who knows arabic please give me an answer. It seems strange that “Allah” in his wisdom would send a message in a language that is practically untranslatable!

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

Justice, i already warned you about digression. You wrote:

Mr. inJESUS,

I know you are keep talking about Dead Sea Scrolls (while ignoring Nag Hammadi ) but unfortunately they are not a proof of validity/genuineness of OT nor NT. Contents of Torah were already corrupted before the period of Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

so mohammad was confirming a corrupt book ?

If the Torah and other books of the Prophets were not corrupted then there was no need to appoint Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Jesus NEVER claimed this…again, mohammad attested to the Bible, and even asked for one…so was he attesting to a corrupt book? Furthermore, allah promised to keep the Bible, is he a liar?

Jeremias 8:8
How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.

loooool…you don’t even understand what Jeremias was talking about do you?

Now as to what Dead Sea scrolls are, I will recommend you a book -DEAD SEA SCROLLS DECEPTION by Michael Baigent & Richard Leigh --but it is not available for free ONLINE, you must buy it and see the game played by those who concealed scrolls for decades:

oh don’t worry…this book has been refuted by other books…i have the 3 set books about the Dead Sea Scrolls and you can learn about them online they took photos of them so no one can corrupt them… the book talked about hiding stuff, not that the OT was proven corrupt coz no one can sorry bro, but they prove the truthfulness of the OT.

 

[inJESUS]

Thats right inJESUS,…those who follow a self-created relgion such as Christianity are not the true People of the Book because Prophet Jesus (pbuh) did not preach Christianity nor he himself was a Christian. He was a Servant of God, a Prophet of God, a man approved of God, just like how all other Prophets of God were.

nop, the people of the book are the heretical nasara of mohammads time. Did you ever wonder why mohammad calls them nasara and not masihiyyin?

22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. ----(Matthew 7:22-23)

i already explained this passage…how many times should one explain a simple passage like this?

Thus Christ will return to fix those Many of his so-called followers who in their minds think doing good works such as prophecying, casting out devils and performing miracles (tricks) but in fact all these Many are not following the true essence of Peophet Jesus message . They are followers of his staunch enemy, a self-appointed apostle Saint Saul. Because these people are actually lip servicing followers of Christ and follow not what actually Jesus preached:

but Paul lived and preached at the same time with Peter and Luke…mmm

8 This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.
9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men. —(Matthew 15:8-9)

oh, don’t tell me you don’t know who Jesus is talking about !

So, do you know arabic or not?

and what about allah calling permissable ( that a woman can return to her husband only after she marries someone esle),what God calls shameful?