Islamic burqa vs Nudity.

[Bluegoat]

I don’t think that in this case nudity and Muslim headcoverings and other religious symbols are analogous. France wants to ban any symbols that show ones religious affiliation in schools because they want schools to be completely secular, in the sense that religious views must be completely private.

(FWIW I think the talk of burqas and terrorism is disingenuous, I think France has been pretty clear in their intentions with regard to any religious symbols).

I think this is not only a wrong idea morally as a religious person, I think it is stupid from even a secular point of view.

Nudity is about modesty. Head-covering and burqas are about modesty too, properly speaking, but in this case they is not being concidered in that contexts, but as simply symbols of religious affiliation.

I am curious though. There are many conservative Catholic women who advocate covering their hair at Mass, or even in all public places. That is more than is normally demanded in Western culture, however, Western culture normally has women covering their breasts. Then there are cultures that have women not cover their breasts. Then there are Muslim women who cover their hair. In all cases these covered body parts are understood to be private in some way.

How is it that we can decide that the burqa is “too much” when there is such variation between what people are culturally conditioned to see as a private body part? (I have some thoughts on this but would like to hear what others say.)

 

[Sam_777]

So what is worse…a woman with scanty clothes who goes about her business…or people with religious clothes who lie and steal and want to infiltrate to take over our country?

KathleenGee, you can not generalize that on every woman who is wearing burqa, at the end those women think they are obeying God, EVEN if they were wrong according to other religions, BUT STILL they think they are obeying GOD, so I see it’s unfair to prohibit what they consider obligation for them and on the other side allowing public nudity and not taking any steps to compact it.

Can’t hide a bomb on a nude body.

Are we going to start covering up the Sistine Chapel with it’s many nudes? Get realistic. Their is nothing wrong with nudity there is something wrong with the sick human mind that sees it as offensive.

Get real nudes pose very little threat to national security no clothes no bomb stapped to their bodies no offense.

:dts:

If a man is going to be totally consumed with lust and cannot control himself simply by seeing a woman’s face, then I agree with Kaninchen, the men should be locked indoors where they won’t be tempted by all the sinfulness of seeing a woman’s face.

BUT we are not speaking about men lust here, Kaninchen understood that wrong, I’m talking about the freedom concept here…

The idea that as those secular countries allow public nudity then they should also allow burqa, as they allow the woman to undress as she likes then they should also allow her to wear whatever she wants…

Muslims do not need to develop WMDs, our women are actually our secret weapon to conquer the planet in the name of Islam.

We know what the human body is meant to be, and it is not a tool to sell magazines or motivate immorality. Society makes it that way because the businesses that produce pornography and filth are obviously not guided by Christian principles. We are! Or at least we are supposed to be.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif, I agree with you, but the issue here between Islam & secularize NOT Islam & Christianity…

How is it that we can decide that the burqa is “too much” when there is such variation between what people are culturally conditioned to see as a private body part? (I have some thoughts on this but would like to hear what others say.)

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif A good question indeed, I think BECAUSE of excess nudity in those secular countries they start seeing burqa as “too much”, the same concept when you put your hand in a cold water then you put it in a medium heat water which would give you the feeling that the second water is too hot…

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, those following God should not be blamed…but those clothes are for Islam in desert countries. There are many Muslims here who do not wear such foreign clothes.

Unfortunately, the clothes are political statements in this country. And we have heard for so many years how Islam hates America…and yet at the same time, we are seeing so many now coming here, having these take over rallies…that it is overwhelming and frightening to many of our people.

Then there is the brutality of Muslim men towards their women and women in general. On another thread, someone just shared about a Muslim woman whose husband left her, took her children away, everything in the house for another woman. What is concerning me as well, is that if this has happened in our country, the moral of our government is now so corrupt and subversive, that this man could get away with what he did inspite of our national laws.

There are just too many bad things happening in our country, the FBI has infiltrated the mosques and 90% have a different face once they are inside. They are intent to subvert our country. And unfortunately, the sign are the clothes.

 

[Kaninchen]

BUT we are not speaking about men lust here, Kaninchen understood that wrong, I’m talking about the freedom concept here…

Except, of course, that covering women up entirely is really about the, apparent anyway, inability of Islamic males to cope with their ferocious libidos - no wonder some Islamic women choose to be totally anonymous, they must be in constant fear that the sight of any part of their bodies will cause all the males around them to explode with lust.

Meanwhile, Sam, one of the key factors in freedom within the ‘rule of law’ is responsibility and total anonymity is a way of avoiding that.

 

[Sam_777]

Except, of course, that covering women up entirely is really about the, apparent anyway, inability of Islamic males to cope with their ferocious libidos

But Kaninchen I’m not taking about lust here, I’m not discussing why Muslim women wear the burqa or whether its allowed in Islam or not, my point is the secular countries and how they approach the freedom concept.

Meanwhile, Sam, one of the key factors in freedom within the ‘rule of law’ is responsibility and total anonymity is a way of avoiding that.

And do you think burqa provides “total anonymity”, I think first we should define “anonymity”, and in which places anonymity is not allowed (buses, schools, etc…)

 

[KathleenGee]

Western people need to be reconverted, and return to their Catholic roots.

 

[Kaninchen]

But Kaninchen I’m not taking about lust here, I’m not discussing why Muslim women wear the burqa or whether its allowed in Islam or not, my point is the secular countries and how they approach the freedom concept.

Oh, I appreciate that, Sam, it’s that the idea that societies with very little freedom of expression for women complainof imperfection in societies with considerable freedom of expression for women on the grounds that they find the epitome of oppression unacceptable is rather amusing.

And do you think burqa provides “total anonymity”, I think first we should define “anonymity”, and in which places anonymity is not allowed (buses, schools, etc…)

We save masks for festivities - carnivale. It’s not in our culture to view blankness as a normal social situation.

 

[hamba2han]

Here is an interesting article explaining why the people who plan to set up the New World Order are the ones who created the women’s lib movement.

There is not much doubt in my mind that the real motive for legislating against Muslim women in Europe and elsewhere is similar to why the women’s lib movement was created i.e to make it a lot easier for the elite to rule over the population.

 

[Kaninchen]

Here is an interesting article explaining why the people who plan to set up the New World Order are the ones who created the women’s lib movement.

There is not much doubt in my mind that the real motive for legislating against Muslim women in Europe and elsewhere is similar to why the women’s lib movement was created i.e to make it a lot easier for the elite to rule over the population.

Ah, Conspiracy Default!

 

[benidict]

Link.

It’s really amazing how those secular countries are taking steps to ban the Islamic burqa (aka., full veil) yet they allow public nudity!!! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

If they want to ban the burqa THEN they should also ban the public nudity , I personally have been to many of those secular countries and I saw many nudity ads in the streets not to mention the nudity on the beaches, yet no remonstration for that!!!:dts:

In general what is more constructive and protective for the societies, banning the burqa or banning the public nudity…

hi sam. maybe you can help me out my friend. ive noticed in strict religions, such as islam, the amish. orthodox Judaism etc. that the burden is always placed on the female to “cover up.” why is this? is the female form shameful? why dont the males in these type of societies also cover up? as far as public nudity, im with ya on that one. but there seems to be a double standard in these stricter faiths and societies. peace

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Didn’t some Imam or Ayatollah say recently that cleavage causes earthquakes? Maybe that’s why Los Angeles has such frequent seismic activity? I’ve always wondered? The San Andreas Fault must be affected by the plastic surgery industry in Hollywood, it just must!

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, that was in Iran, Gurney. Iran, it should be noted, is one of the most seismically active countries in the world. Here is a list of earthquakes in Iran. There must be an awful lot of less-than-modest dressing going on in that country.

 

[Sam_777]

ive noticed in strict religions, such as islam, the amish. orthodox Judaism etc. that the burden is always placed on the female to “cover up.” why is this? is the female form shameful?

In Islam Muslim males also have restrictions on clothing, for example Muslim men should not show their thighs per this hadith:

***Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 20, Number 3134: **
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Do not unveil your thigh, and do not look at the thigh of the living and the dead.
*

سنن أبي داود:
أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تبرز فخذك ولا تنظرن إلى فخذ حي ولا ميت ‏
​

(E) (A)

And in Christianity “1 Corinthians 11:4-16” supports the covering concept:
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

as far as public nudity, im with ya on that one.

 

[KathleenGee]

What purpose, Sam?

Women are by nature emotional and not visual.

It is men who are pornographic users.

 

[Splinker]

If a islamic country can forbid women to be outside without the burka, why can’t a eurpoean country forbid women to wear the Burka while riding public transportation?

 

[KathleenGee]

The usual double standard…I have been reading too much about all sorts of events here in the USA, how Americans are being sued by the newcomer Muslims…it is very trying to have to read all of it, and the injustice that what is good for Muslim men is not allowed for everyone else. They use these young girls as set ups to sue. And our anti-Judeo-Christian judges cater to them.

 

[rikkk1958]

Link.

It’s really amazing how those secular countries are taking steps to ban the Islamic burqa (aka., full veil) yet they allow public nudity!!! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

If they want to ban the burqa THEN they should also ban the public nudity , I personally have been to many of those secular countries and I saw many nudity ads in the streets not to mention the nudity on the beaches, yet no remonstration for that!!!:dts:

In general what is more constructive and protective for the societies, banning the burqa or banning the public nudity…

Who says we condone nudity? Do you know Sam, that in the beginning of the creation, God made Man and Woman without clothes? Do you know that when they disobeyed God, that is when they realized they are ashamed of themselves without clothes? That because of the sin they have committed, they cloth themselves to hide their nudity? This is what happen in the Muslim World, the whole body of a woman must be covered because Muslim men will be so aroused if they can even see even the Woman’s hair.

In our world, although we see the hair of a woman, we felt nothing but we can admire the beauty that God gave them. We are not aroused because of the hair. Men can be aroused with the nudity of the woman but there are also those who do not want to see them nude, and actually despised the situation. To obey God does not mean that men can tell you what one should do but must exercise his own free will if looking for a nude woman is right or wrong. That is up to you Sam, if you want to get aroused or not. It is up to you to follow what is right and what is wrong. You can not listen to Muhammed just because he said so. Don’t you know that he was the number 1 offender of that nature.

 

[KathleenGee]

Men are responsible for their actions, but the reality is that they are visual. So women need to also respect their weakness and dress appropriately. Heard that since I was in grade school.

 

[benidict]

What purpose, Sam?

Women are by nature emotional and not visual.

It is men who are pornographic users.

good point kathleen. of course being an american, and a libertarian, i believe in personal responsibilty, and keeping the government out of my closet, my wallet, my personal life, etc. id say lets let the guys walk around in one of those hot uncomfortable full length outfits for a few days, in 130 degree temps, and see how they like it. i can see moderation in this area. but it should be an individual choice. also in europe, they dont view nudity the same way they do in the west, or in islamic countries. Peace

 

[benidict]

that is true j. however there are many ways europe as a whole is more lax on issues that even americans are more uptight about. however i can see your point. britain im sure would have a problem due to their more reserved nature.Peace