Islamic Dialogue - Koranic Teachings

[aschaefer]

I have read so many verses of Quran translated into English, it is the same meaning, but it might be put in a simpler way. Arabic is a very rich language, and the translations sometimes don’t match with the beauty of the Quran in its original language.

To answer Sedonaman question, Quran is surprisingly very easy to memorize, and you might be even more surprised to know that so many Muslims memorize the whole Quran from cover to cover in very young ages. Even people who memorize only few parts of Quran can easily complete verses when they hear them, and it happens a lot for me when I listen to Quran recitation, I know what is the next verse even if I don’t really memorize it. So I don’t think it is difficult for non-Arabic speaking Muslims to memorize verses of the Quran. I have seen many Pakistani people for example who read the Quran better than Arabic speaking Muslims and you can’t even till that they are not Arabic speakers, but then when you chat with them in Arabic, they can’t even understand what you are saying! All they know in Arabic is Quran.

Thank you!!

The Moon 54:22. And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

 

[sedonaman]

Where is the foundation of the Muslim teaching that anyone who “apostatizes” from Islam is to suffer the death penalty?

Even if you believe that it has been abrogated.

Which Islamic texts/passages abrogated it?

 

[Jerusha]

I am not saying it has been abrogated-- I am just asking the question in such a way that will not offend the person who chooses to answer it. I have my own agenda.

 

[Kouyate42]

So what? As I stated before, these religions don’t claim that the only valid scripture is in one particular language that can’t be translated into other languages. Only Islam makes that claim. Since it is hardly plausible that the differences between Arabic and other languages are so subtle that “nuances” can create confused misunderstanding between peace and terrorism, it isn’t hard to see through this illogical myth, the real reason for which is that, for the first time, the information age is making the full history and texts of the Islamic religion available to a broader audience, and it is highly embarrassing to both Muslim scholars and their faithful flock. Pretending that different meanings exist in Arabic is a way of finding solace and saving face, and perhaps even appealing to the idea of being a member of an exclusive * club.

Then why are you making an illogical argument? Because the “logic” of Arabic is impossible to translate into English?*

I’ll say this only: Muhammad was given a Qur’an in Arabic. His language was Arabic and the thinking of the whole world of early Islam was in Arabic.

The Qur’an is only the Qur’an when in the original language. Anything else isn’t a Qur’an, it’s a translation of the meaning. A copy of a painting isn’t the painting itself but a copy.

 

[sedonaman]

… A copy of a painting isn’t the painting itself but a copy.

The logical conclusion of this is that the only valid Koran is the one Allah allegedly gave Mohammed, and all others are copies. Even if they are in Arabic and convey the same information as the original, they are not real Korans; they are only copies. Since no one has the Koran that Allah allegedly gave Mohammed, you and all other Muslims have been reading false Korans ever since you all learned to read. How do you know what to believe if you are reading something invalid?

 

[Kouyate42]

The logical conclusion of this is that the only valid Koran is the one Allah allegedly gave Mohammed, and all others are copies. Even if they are in Arabic and convey the same information as the original, they are not real Korans; they are only copies. Since no one has the Koran that Allah allegedly gave Mohammed, you and all other Muslims have been reading false Korans ever since you all learned to read. How do you know what to believe if you are reading something invalid?

Not really. The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

The text of the Qur’an has not changed. It’s the same Qur’an given to Muhammad (saw).

 

[sedonaman]

Not really. The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

The text of the Qur’an has not changed. It’s the same Qur’an given to Muhammad (saw).

Then you used a false comparison between a painting and a writing.

Which is your second language, English, Arabic, or ?

 

[Ontheway]

Regarding the language of the Koran.

Non-Arabic speakers are taught enough Arabic to memorize phrases from that book and to repeat them multiple times daily.
I know native Arabic speakers who read the Koran and admit to not understanding it. They just say that it is beautiful and that’s all that matters. They get the “gist” from the words and partial passages they can actually undrestand and the rest is faith.
Some say that too much understanding is too dangerous.
I have also heard them say that too much science and knowledge is a threat to Islam.

Thus, any exchange of ideas with these folks is difficult at best.
Salaam al leikum

 

[Jerusha]

Where is the foundation of the Muslim teaching that anyone who “apostatizes” from Islam is to suffer the death penalty?

Even if you believe that it has been abrogated.

Nevermind. I found it. Surah 9, v. 5, 11, 12 and 84-85.

answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

 

[Augustine3]

Not really. The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

The text of the Qur’an has not changed. It’s the same Qur’an given to Muhammad (saw).

Hi,

It should be noted with all respect there are some minor variations:

“The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree” – Sura 33:6

Abdullah Yusif Ali comments on this text in paragraph 3674 “In some Qiraats, like that of Ubai ibn Kab, occur also the word “and he is a father to them…”

I acknowledge this does not change the fundamental message, I just wanted to bring this up because many Muslims believe the Quran they have in their hands today is absolute and unchanged word for word. Clearly this is not the case.

God bless,

 

[sedonaman]

Not really. The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

The text of the Qur’an has not changed. It’s the same Qur’an given to Muhammad (saw).

There is no evidence of this. In fact, there is evidence that it has changed. See the Yemeni Koran theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5445.

 

[Augustine3]

There is no evidence of this. In fact, there is evidence that it has changed. See the Yemeni Koran theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5445.

Muslims place strong emphasis on their recorded chain of transmission. I haven’t investigated this personally but it’s something they are very proud and confident about.

God bless,

 

[Kouyate42]

Hi,

It should be noted with all respect there are some minor variations:

“The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree” – Sura 33:6

Abdullah Yusif Ali comments on this text in paragraph 3674 “In some Qiraats, like that of Ubai ibn Kab, occur also the word “and he is a father to them…”

I acknowledge this does not change the fundamental message, I just wanted to bring this up because many Muslims believe the Quran they have in their hands today is absolute and unchanged word for word. Clearly this is not the case.

God bless,

If the fundamental meaning of the passage is not changed, such minor variations are largely irrelevant.

There is no evidence of this. In fact, there is evidence that it has changed. See the Yemeni Koran theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5445.

It has not and I can supply many articles from Muslim sources refuting this claim of textual change or error.

Muslims place strong emphasis on their recorded chain of transmission. I haven’t investigated this personally but it’s something they are very proud and confident about.

God bless,

Yes, there are isnads or chains of transmission. These are especially important for the hadith, which are subject to their own special branch of study, called ulum ul-hadiith, as to their validity and reliability.
That said, there are some minor disputes over some transmissons and specific people within the chain of transmission.

 

[jakasaki]

There is no evidence of this. In fact, there is evidence that it has changed. See the Yemeni Koran theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5445.

I’ve known about the Yemeni koran for many years now, and it begs the question that when Uthman burned the 7 different variants of the existing koran back in his time, how did he miss this one.

The koran the muslims have today is Uthmans, not Mohamads.

 

[Augustine3]

If the fundamental meaning of the passage is not changed, such minor variations are largely irrelevant.

I agree, I just wanted to emphasize it isn’t absolutely word for word.

I would like to ask is there any surahs in the Quran that state the bible is corrupt?

God bless,

 

[sedonaman]

… It has not and I can supply many articles from Muslim sources refuting this claim of textual change or error.

Which would be merely personal beliefs and not real proofs.

… The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

If the fundamental meaning of the passage is not changed, such minor variations are largely irrelevant.

You are back-peddling.

 

[Marybeloved]

Not really. The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

The text of the Qur’an has not changed. It’s the same Qur’an given to Muhammad (saw).

Which qur’an hasn’t changed from day one? And which “day one” do you mean? After Moh’d received it, or after Uthman destroyed the competing versions of the qur’an after Moh’d’s death? You mean the Quran that survived the destruction ordered by the Kaliph sometime after Moh’d died and Muslims started disputing among themselves about the fact that they recited DIFFERENT versions of the qur’an? That Qur’an? Yes, that Qur’an has not changed.

Also, did Uthman receive a divine revelation from Angel Jibril when he picked the version he picked as the true Qur’an among the competing versions or was that just a lucky guess?

 

[Kouyate42]

Which qur’an hasn’t changed from day one? And which “day one” do you mean? After Moh’d received it, or after Uthman destroyed the competing versions of the qur’an after Moh’d’s death? You mean the Quran that survived the destruction ordered by the Kaliph sometime after Moh’d died and Muslims started disputing among themselves about the fact that they recited DIFFERENT versions of the qur’an? That Qur’an? Yes, that Qur’an has not changed.

Also, did Uthman receive a divine revelation from Angel Jibril when he picked the version he picked as the true Qur’an among the competing versions or was that just a lucky guess?

This is easy. Muhammad (saw) had his scribes write down the Qur’an and was very strict in ensuring that the copies made of his holy revelation were EXACTLY what he had been given by Allah. Being illiterate, this did not stop him from having texts read to him and from his literate companions from writing down corrections and also their own copies of the texts.

As to Uthman, this is also easily explained. Given that Arabic even today has many forms and dialects, the Qur’an of the Uthmaan era also suffered from the same problem. Different tribes and groups often spoke their own dialect of the Arabic language and this affected their Qur’anic text, and often serious mistakes were heard in recitations and in written texts, along with serious arguments as to whose Qur’an recitation and interpretation was the correct one.

So the decision of Uthman was to set up a SINGLE version of the Qur’an, correctly written and recited for all Muslims to learn and use, This was in the Qurayshi dialect, the one used by the Prophet (saw) himself and this was done with the aid of the Companions of the Holy Prophet (saw) who had learnt it from him.

This copy was sent to the major cities and all other copies were burnt. And it is more than possible to read two of these Uthman Qur’an today, with one in Turkey and the other in Tashkent.

 

[Kouyate42]

Which would be merely personal beliefs and not real proofs.

Given that some of these articles are from very learned 'aalim, who study Qur’an and hadith, along with Islamic history, pretty much all day every day, I doubt this very much.

You are back-peddling.

Not really. Read my last post too.

In English, no-one disputes that ‘pavement’ and ‘sidewalk’ are two different dialectical words for the same thing, so why the difference in Arabic? Different Arabic countries and even tribes/communities have their own slight differences in language.

 

[sedonaman]

This is easy. Muhammad (saw) had his scribes write down the Qur’an and was very strict in ensuring that the copies made of his holy revelation were EXACTLY what he had been given by Allah. Being illiterate, this did not stop him from having texts read to him and from his literate companions from writing down corrections and also their own copies of the texts.

As to Uthman, this is also easily explained. Given that Arabic even today has many forms and dialects, the Qur’an of the Uthmaan era also suffered from the same problem. Different tribes and groups often spoke their own dialect of the Arabic language and this affected their Qur’anic text, and often serious mistakes were heard in recitations and in written texts, along with serious arguments as to whose Qur’an recitation and interpretation was the correct one.

So the decision of Uthman was to set up a SINGLE version of the Qur’an, correctly written and recited for all Muslims to learn and use, This was in the Qurayshi dialect, the one used by the Prophet (saw) himself and this was done with the aid of the Companions of the Holy Prophet (saw) who had learnt it from him.

This copy was sent to the major cities and all other copies were burnt. And it is more than possible to read two of these Uthman Qur’an today, with one in Turkey and the other in Tashkent.

… The text of the Qur’an hasn’t changed since day one, and I could easily take my Qur’an and check it with the earliest Qur’ans in the world. It would match down to the last letter.

But the “earliest Qur’ans” wouldn’t be the originals.

Islamic tradition relates that Muhammad received his first revelation in the Cave of Hira during one of his isolated retreats to the mountains. Thereafter, he received revelations over a period of twenty-three years. According to hadith and Muslim history, after Muhammad emigrated to Medina and formed an independent Muslim community, he ordered a considerable number of the sahabah to recite the Qur’an and to learn and teach the laws, which were revealed daily. Companions who engaged in the recitation of the Quran were called Qari. Since most sahabah were unable to read or write, they were ordered to learn from the prisoners-of-war the simple writing of the time. Thus a group of sahabah gradually became literate. As it was initially spoken, the Qur’an was recorded on tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds. Most chapters were in use amongst early Muslims since they are mentioned in numerous sayings by both Sunni and Shia sources, relating Muhammad’s use of the Qur’an as a call to Islam, the making of prayer and the manner of recitation. However, the Qur’an did not exist in book form at the time of Muhammad’s death in 632.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koran

In order to make the claims you do, you would have to have the originals that were written on “tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds” and compare your Qur’an to those.