Islamic Dialogue - Koranic Teachings

[Marybeloved]

This is easy. Muhammad (saw) had his scribes write down the Qur’an and was very strict in ensuring that the copies made of his holy revelation were EXACTLY what he had been given by Allah. Being illiterate, this did not stop him from having texts read to him and from his literate companions from writing down corrections and also their own copies of the texts.

As to Uthman, this is also easily explained. Given that Arabic even today has many forms and dialects, the Qur’an of the Uthmaan era also suffered from the same problem. Different tribes and groups often spoke their own dialect of the Arabic language and this affected their Qur’anic text, and often serious mistakes were heard in recitations and in written texts, along with serious arguments as to whose Qur’an recitation and interpretation was the correct one.

So the decision of Uthman was to set up a SINGLE version of the Qur’an, correctly written and recited for all Muslims to learn and use, This was in the Qurayshi dialect, the one used by the Prophet (saw) himself and this was done with the aid of the Companions of the Holy Prophet (saw) who had learnt it from him.

This copy was sent to the major cities and all other copies were burnt. And it is more than possible to read two of these Uthman Qur’an today, with one in Turkey and the other in Tashkent.

Weren’t there close “companions of the Holy Prophet who had learnt it from him” who themselves had different compilations of the qur’an that disagreed with that of that man Zaid whose version Uthman picked as the right one?

 

[sedonaman]

Given that some of these articles are from very learned 'aalim, who study Qur’an and hadith, along with Islamic history, pretty much all day every day, I doubt this very much.

You see? It’s just a matter of belief. They say it because they believe it too.

… Different Arabic countries and even tribes/communities have their own slight differences in language.

So? If they are different, you can’t say they are “EXACTLY” the same “down to the last letter”. Face it. You have painted yourself into a corner. On the one hand, in order for your Qur’an to be the “perfect word of Allah” it has to have remained unchanged from the original “down to the last letter” for the last 1,400 years. Any differences call into question the “perfect word of Allah” claim and are hence consequential. This is an impossible requirement to meet, so, you come up with an alternate theory that any differences are inconsequential. So which is it? Are they consequential or inconsequential? Or are they both?

 

[Kouyate42]

This is pointless. The Qur’an is clear that some can be told the Qur’an and its truth, but their ears are closed shut and their hearts shut off.

(BTW, this is not an attack on your faith, as you are equally a People of the Book as Muslims.)

I suggest you read this article: themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm

And this one: alislam.org/quran/quranp.html

And this one: quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_preserved.htm

And a final one: allahsquran.com/quran_divine_book.php

All of these talk about the preservation of the Qur’an at length and with more knowledge than I have at present. And I have made an error in what I said in this thread, then may Allah show His mercy and forgiveness towards me.

 

[exoflare]

This is pointless.

I’ll say.

 

[Reuben_J]

If the fundamental meaning of the passage is not changed, such minor variations are largely irrelevant.

Been away from the Forum for quite a while, and while at it, I liked to discuss about the Islamic religion.

You are shooting yourself on the foot with above justification with regards to the Quran. Muslims claim that there is no variation in the Quran, not even a minor one. It is suppose to be words of Allah transmitted verbatim. It is like putting on a tape recorder and recording everything Allah said and Mohammad was simply a playback. Of course this is impossible task even if anything, the present Quran was added with vowels and punctuations. In arabic it is such that even putting the comma in a different place, let alone different vowels, will change the meaning of the word.

You should not have admitted the variation for this discussion. You are back pedaling and contradicting yourself and the claim of Muslims on this subject.

 

[Marybeloved]

This is pointless. The Qur’an is clear that some can be told the Qur’an and its truth, but their ears are closed shut and their hearts shut off.

(BTW, this is not an attack on your faith, as you are equally a People of the Book as Muslims.)

I suggest you read this article: themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm

And this one: alislam.org/quran/quranp.html

And this one: quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_preserved.htm

And a final one: allahsquran.com/quran_divine_book.php

All of these talk about the preservation of the Qur’an at length and with more knowledge than I have at present. And I have made an error in what I said in this thread, then may Allah show His mercy and forgiveness towards me.

You obviously picked your religion based on sheer blind faith and not any objective study of the truth. Every time you’re asked direct questions you claim you need to study more, here and on other threads. But no amount of studying can get rid of the lack of any solid basis for Muslim claims of a supernatural origin for their faith apart from the sheer blind faith they place in Muhammad and his claims.

 

[jakasaki]

Been away from the Forum for quite a while, and while at it, I liked to discuss about the Islamic religion.

You are shooting yourself on the foot with above justification with regards to the Quran. Muslims claim that there is no variation in the Quran, not even a minor one. It is suppose to be words of Allah transmitted verbatim. It is like putting on a tape recorder and recording everything Allah said and Mohammad was simply a playback. Of course this is impossible task even if anything, the present Quran was added with vowels and punctuations. In arabic it is such that even putting the comma in a different place, let alone different vowels, will change the meaning of the word.

You should not have admitted the variation for this discussion. You are back pedaling and contradicting yourself and the claim of Muslims on this subject.

Oh WOW Reuben - how I’ve missed you so much.!!! Nice to see you back.

 

[sedonaman]

This is pointless. …

On the contrary, it is of vital importance. Muslims claim that the Qur’an is the “perfect word of Allah” which is further alleged to be evidenced by the fact that it has not changed “down to the last letter” in 1,400 years. If differences can be found, and you admit there are differences, then the “perfect word of Allah” claim is false. This calls into question the very idea that Islam is true, and this question is a result of statements by Muslims themselves.

 

[Kouyate42]

You obviously picked your religion based on sheer blind faith and not any objective study of the truth. Every time you’re asked direct questions you claim you need to study more, here and on other threads. But no amount of studying can get rid of the lack of any solid basis for Muslim claims of a supernatural origin for their faith apart from the sheer blind faith they place in Muhammad and his claims.

I am not an Islamic encyclopedia and indeed I have only been a Muslim for a few weeks. Plus, I have a life outside of this forum. I cannot spend all my time in study. I’m not an 'alim.

You also might want to consider your own faith is based on pure blind faith too. You have probably less proof for your faith than I do for mine, and I could give you a list of problems with Christianity and Catholicism the length of my abaya.

 

[sedonaman]

I am not an Islamic encyclopedia and indeed I have only been a Muslim for a few weeks. Plus, I have a life outside of this forum. I cannot spend all my time in study. I’m not an 'alim.

You also might want to consider your own faith is based on pure blind faith too. You have probably less proof for your faith than I do for mine, and I could give you a list of problems with Christianity and Catholicism the length of my abaya.

You don’t have the time to respond to questions, but you have time to produce a long list of problems with Christianity and Catholicism? Perhaps you should limit yourself to fewer threads.

 

[Armyvet007]

I am not an Islamic encyclopedia and indeed I have only been a Muslim for a few weeks. Plus, I have a life outside of this forum. I cannot spend all my time in study. I’m not an 'alim.

You also might want to consider your own faith is based on pure blind faith too. You have probably less proof for your faith than I do for mine, and I could give you a list of problems with Christianity and Catholicism the length of my abaya.

The problem is that your faith in Islam isn’t based on blind faith. Based on your prior comments, its based on the “beauty” of how it is written, that an illiterate/poorly educated man could create it, that it has scientific knowledge it shouldn’t have, that said author couldn’t possibly have access to said knowledge, etc. All points brought to your attention and ignored by you [and yes “I’m still researching it” is ignoring it when you go on to answer more complex/partially related questions].

As for problems with Christianity and Catholicism, please start a new thread [don’t want to derail this one] and we can discuss them.

 

[Marybeloved]

I am not an Islamic encyclopedia and indeed I have only been a Muslim for a few weeks. Plus, I have a life outside of this forum. I cannot spend all my time in study. I’m not an 'alim.

You also might want to consider your own faith is based on pure blind faith too. You have probably less proof for your faith than I do for mine, and I could give you a list of problems with Christianity and Catholicism the length of my abaya.

I’m sorry to disappoint, but my faith is not based on blind faith. Anyone who knows anything about Catholicism knows that fideism (religion based simply on blind faith) is very much a non-Catholic idea- Look up the encyclical"faith and reason" by Pope John Paul II or the Summa by St. Thomas Aquinas. Ours is a faith based on reason and the farthest thing from fideism which is what Islam is. There is definitely a LOT of reason behind the Catholic faith, behind belief in Christ and the historicity of the Gospels. Nothing at all in Islam compares.

No need to suddenly play the “Oh, I’m not an Encyclopedia for Islam card”- I’ve seen posts where you boasted about a lot of studying of Islam and about your degree, meant to show us how knowledgeable you are about Islam- Now, you don’t know as much as you boasted? Rather, the truth is, you have zero to support Islam on the points raised to you.

 

[sedonaman]

…As for problems with Christianity and Catholicism, …

Why do I get the feeling he knows more about the “problems” with Christianity than the good things about Islam?

 

[Simon62]

Hi, I don’t know if I can post the writing of another author here or not, but I think it’s worth reading in light of the OP’s original question.
This was written by a woman born in Egypt as a Muslim.
This is not hearsay, and it will scare the life out of you.

Joys of Muslim Women By Nonie Darwish

In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year
old and have sexual intimacy with this child. Consummating the
marriage by 9. The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the
woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private
parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.
Even though a woman is abused she can not obtain a divorce.
To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses. Often after a
woman has been raped, she is returned to her family and the family
must return the dowry.
The family has the right to execute her (an honour killing) to restore
the honour of the family.
Husbands can beat their wives ‘at will’ and he does not have to say why he has beaten her. The husband is permitted to have (4 wives) and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.
The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life
of the woman. In the Western World ( America and Britain ) Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her.
It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters
attending American Universities and British Universities are now
marrying Muslim men and submitting themselves and their children
unsuspectingly to the Shariah law.

Continued>

 

[Simon62]

Although going away from topic this is also an eye opener for all those who fail to see the real agenda.

Ripping the West in Two…

Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and
liberty in two.
She recently authored the book, Cruel and Usual Punishment: The
Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law.
Darwish was born in Cairo and spent her childhood in Egypt and Gaza
before immigrating to America in 1978, when she was eight years old.
Her father died while leading covert attacks on Israel . He was a high-ranking Egyptian military officer stationed with his family in Gaza . When he died, he was considered a “shahid,” a martyr for Jihad. His posthumous status earned Nonie and her family an elevated position in Muslim society.
But Darwish developed a sceptical eye at an early age. She questioned her own Muslim culture and upbringing.
She converted to Christianity after hearing a Christian preacher on television.
In her latest book, Darwish warns about creeping Sharia law - what it is, what it means, and how it is manifested in Islamic countries.
For the West, she says radical Islamists are working to impose Sharia
on the world. If that happens, Western civilization will be destroyed.
Westerners generally assume all religions encourage a respect for the
dignity of each individual.
Islamic law (Sharia) teaches that non-Muslims should be subjugated or
killed in this world. Peace and prosperity for one’s children is not
as important as assuring that Islamic law rules everywhere in the Middle East and eventually in the world.
While Westerners tend to think that all religions encourage some form of the golden rule, Sharia teaches two systems of ethics - one for
Muslims and another for non-Muslims.
Building on tribal practices of the seventh century, Sharia encourages
the side of humanity that wants to take from and subjugate others
While Westerners tend to think in terms of religious people developing
a personal understanding of and relationship with God, Sharia
advocates executing people who ask difficult questions that could be
interpreted as criticism.
It’s hard to imagine, that in this day and age, Islamic scholars agree
that those who criticize Islam or choose to stop being Muslim should
be executed.
Sadly, while talk of an Islamic reformation is common and even assumed
by many in the West, such murmurings in the Middle East are silenced
through intimidation.
While Westerners are accustomed to an increase in religious tolerance
over time, Darwish explains how petro dollars are being used to grow
an extremely intolerant form of political Islam in her native Egypt
and elsewhere.
(In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U.S. and
Britain To elect the President by themselves! Rest assured they will
do so… You can look at how they have taken over several towns in
the USA . Dearborn Mich. is one… And there are others.)
( Britain has several cities now totally controlled by Muslims)
It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and
Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful. Some may be but they
have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam. The
peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of
patriotism to their religion.
While America and Britain is getting rid of Christianity from all
public sites and erasing God from the lives of children, the Muslims
are planning a great Jihad on America . ( Britain , Canada and
probably Australia ) .

 

[Simon62]

Dear all
As an addendum to the above script on Islam, as a Catholic I believe the only way to bring about peace in the world is to pray the rosary, especially for the conversion of Russia, (communism is spreading its errors like never before). Likewise for the end of Islam and the conversion of all moslems to our Holy Mother Church, along with Freemasons and all our separated and lost brothers and sisters in the world. As Catholics it is our duty to bring to them the Gospels so they may hear the Word and Truth of Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ.
I fear dialoguing is going to be pretty much a waste of time with non believers as is also discussing the Koran with moslems.
Pray the rosary and in the end The Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph. But as she said, it will be late and the Church and the Holy Father will suffer much.
Another suggestion: Instead of dialogue, why not each of us offer up the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for the conversion of Islam for starters.
Simon

 

[Amoon]

It seems that Non-Muslims will try hard to prove that Quran is not the Words of God, and Muslims will always defend the Holy Quran as the final revelation that cannot be corrupted.

If your claims were true, we would have had so many different versions of Quran nowadays, but the fact that all Muslims in the world have the exact same Quran, is a proof that God preserved the Quran from being corrupted.

People who think Quran was corrupted, have to provide us with the verses that they think are not from God, or they have to find the new verses that were removed from Quran. If there are no such things, that means the Quran is not corrupted.

Muslims don’t really have problems believing that Quran is the true Words of God, because God Himself promises to protect it from corruption. Al Hijr 15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

The Quran was memorized by many companions of Prophet Mohammed, so it was not that one or two persons compiled it themselves, when so many people memorize the Quran, if one makes mistakes, others will correct him!

 

[sedonaman]

It seems that Non-Muslims will try hard to prove that Quran is not the Words of God, and Muslims will always defend the Holy Quran as the final revelation that cannot be corrupted.

If your claims were true, we would have had so many different versions of Quran nowadays, but the fact that all Muslims in the world have the exact same Quran, is a proof that God preserved the Quran from being corrupted.

People who think Quran was corrupted, have to provide us with the verses that they think are not from God, or they have to find the new verses that were removed from Quran. If there are no such things, that means the Quran is not corrupted.

Muslims don’t really have problems believing that Quran is the true Words of God, because God Himself promises to protect it from corruption. Al Hijr 15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

The Quran was memorized by many companions of Prophet Mohammed, so it was not that one or two persons compiled it themselves, when so many people memorize the Quran, if one makes mistakes, others will correct him!

You are new to this forum. We have discussed these points many times over, but you are the first I can recall who said that “all Muslims in the world have the exact same Qur’an, is a proof that God preserved the Qur’an from being corrupted.” How do you know they’re all “exactly” the same? Have you seen them all? Have you compared them to the Yemeni Qur’an? theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5445 Even if they were all “exactly” the same, how is that proof of anything?

We know the Qur’an is corrupt because it doesn’t contain one of Jesus’ important teaching: The Sermon on the Mount.

 

[Armyvet007]

It seems that Non-Muslims will try hard to prove that Quran is not the Words of God, and Muslims will always defend the Holy Quran as the final revelation that cannot be corrupted.

If your claims were true, we would have had so many different versions of Quran nowadays, but the fact that all Muslims in the world have the exact same Quran, is a proof that God preserved the Quran from being corrupted.

People who think Quran was corrupted, have to provide us with the verses that they think are not from God, or they have to find the new verses that were removed from Quran. If there are no such things, that means the Quran is not corrupted.

Muslims don’t really have problems believing that Quran is the true Words of God, because God Himself promises to protect it from corruption. Al Hijr 15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

The Quran was memorized by many companions of Prophet Mohammed, so it was not that one or two persons compiled it themselves, when so many people memorize the Quran, if one makes mistakes, others will correct him!

So accurate transmission over time constitutes it being from God and uncorruptable? Ok, but you better go find a Rabbi and convert to Judaism.

 

[Amoon]

But once the Sana’a findings are published in details, Islam will not be the same as it was for fourteen centuries.

I didn’t find the “new verses” in the article, where can I find them? Are they still not published?

But do they really expect that Muslims will believe these so called “Sana’s scriptures” to be Quranic just because a German man found it to be so!

Aren’t Arab and Muslim scholars the most knowledgeable about the Arabic language?

Isn’t it possible to be the same verses that already exist in Quran but written in a specific Arabic style that westerners could not comprehend!

To be able to convince Muslims of these claims, trusted Muslim scholars have to agree on it!

But please don’t have high expectations, and I assure you, with or without these claims, Islam will spread, and followers of Islam will increase around the world.

We know that our confidence that Quran is the true Words of God bothers so many people, and we know that they will not stop their attempts to prove the opposite, because if they don’t do that, then they have no choice but to accept Islam as the true and final revelation from God.

It is interesting how Non-Muslims are working hard to prove Quran is not Words of God which shows how powerful and strong this book is. These attempts make us more confident in our faith, and if they really believed that Quran was produced by other than God, they wouldn’t have given it that much attention!

9: 23-33. Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the unbelievers may detest (it). It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest (it).