Islamic prayer

[cestusdei]

5 times a day Muslims do salat ie. prayer. It is a highly complex ritual beginning with ablutions ie. wudu. It is formal and must be done properly and in Arabic. It is one of their pillars of faith.

BUT where in the Quran does it specify exactly how to pray and dictate that this is the way to do it. Sure it might say you should pray, but it doesn’t say how. If the Quran is perfect and all you need to follow God then why isn’t it all spelled out? Why can’t Muslims just pray however they want? Why do they need clerics to tell them what it means and how to do it? I thought they prided themselves on not needing clergy and each Muslim is free to do his own thing? Muhammed prayed in a certain way, but so what. No Muslim should have to slavishly obey his example. That would make him more then they say and would be shirk. It appears to me that they are inconsistant at best.

 

[George_Waters]

Good observation. Let us see what is said by the Muslim members of this forum.

 

[LilyM]

What is the deal with the prayers having to be in Arabic? I think I read somewhere that the Arabic version of the Koran is also supposed to be better somehow?!? As if God only speaks Arabic! At least we Catholics have learned the lesson that using an unfamiliar language can actually be a hindrance to worship rather than a help.

 

[MrS]

LilyM:

What is the deal with the prayers having to be in Arabic? I think I read somewhere that the Arabic version of the Koran is also supposed to be better somehow?!? As if God only speaks Arabic!** At least we Catholics have learned the lesson that using an unfamiliar language can actually be a hindrance to worship rather than a help**.

oh-oh… you have just incurred the wrath of charismatics world wide

However… a follow-up question to the topic at hand …

Why do muslims kneel when they prayer but don’t claim that Allah is actually present there (very unified and reverent, and at multiple times each day)…

and Catholics too often don’t/won’t kneel in reverence but **do **claim that Jesus is really present there (un-unified, and irreverent) when do can make it once a week to Sunday Mass??

 

[inJESUS]

5 times a day Muslims do salat ie. prayer. It is a highly complex ritual beginning with ablutions ie. wudu. It is formal and must be done properly and in Arabic. It is one of their pillars of faith.

BUT where in the Quran does it specify exactly how to pray and dictate that this is the way to do it. Sure it might say you should pray, but it doesn’t say how. If the Quran is perfect and all you need to follow God then why isn’t it all spelled out? Why can’t Muslims just pray however they want? Why do they need clerics to tell them what it means and how to do it? I thought they prided themselves on not needing clergy and each Muslim is free to do his own thing? Muhammed prayed in a certain way, but so what. No Muslim should have to slavishly obey his example. That would make him more then they say and would be shirk. It appears to me that they are inconsistant at best.

i guess many stuff are taken from hadith…and no the quran isn’t complete by itself…they need the hadith to understand it.

 

[LilyM]

MrS:

oh-oh… you have just incurred the wrath of charismatics world wide

However… a follow-up question to the topic at hand …

Why do muslims kneel when they prayer but don’t claim that Allah is actually present there (very unified and reverent, and at multiple times each day)…

and Catholics too often don’t/won’t kneel in reverence but **do **claim that Jesus is really present there (un-unified, and irreverent) when do can make it once a week to Sunday Mass??

I did say CAN hinder … after all we had mass in Latin for a good 1500 years and more, I’m sure the majority of people didn’t understand THAT. However, I don’t want to start fights with Charismatics or TLM diehards.

I kneel every mass I attend. at the appropriate times (consecration, distribution of Communion etc), and I couldn’t care less who else does or doesn’t. AND I do the double genuflection (bit hard on the knees though!) when the Eucharist is exposed for Adoration or Benediction, no matter who else does or doesn’t.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Bukhari 1.660:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Isn’t he who raises his head before the Imam afraid that Allah may transform his head into that of a donkey or his figure into that of a donkey?”

 

[cestusdei]

I notice that none of the Muslims here have touched this thread. Hmmm…

 

[Cyber_Knight]

cestusdei:

I notice that none of the Muslims here have touched this thread. Hmmm…

there is an active one, but he’s busy evangelizing catholics about bible verses here and there… I dont know what he is talking about. I see Lily learned so much so now she is good as whistling.

 

[MrS]

LilyM:

I did say CAN hinder … after all we had mass in Latin for a good 1500 years and more, I’m sure the majority of people didn’t understand THAT. However, I don’t want to start fights with Charismatics or TLM diehards.

I kneel every mass I attend. at the appropriate times (consecration, distribution of Communion etc), and I couldn’t care less who else does or doesn’t. AND I do the double genuflection (bit hard on the knees though!) when the Eucharist is exposed for Adoration or Benediction, no matter who else does or doesn’t.

 

[inJESUS]

Cyber Knight:

Bukhari 1.660:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Isn’t he who raises his head before the Imam afraid that Allah may transform his head into that of a donkey or his figure into that of a donkey?”

you must be kidding :ehh:

 

[Faith101]

5 times a day Muslims do salat ie. prayer. It is a highly complex ritual beginning with ablutions ie. wudu. It is formal and must be done properly and in Arabic. It is one of their pillars of faith.

BUT where in the Quran does it specify exactly how to pray and dictate that this is the way to do it. Sure it might say you should pray, but it doesn’t say how. If the Quran is perfect and all you need to follow God then why isn’t it all spelled out? Why can’t Muslims just pray however they want? Why do they need clerics to tell them what it means and how to do it? I thought they prided themselves on not needing clergy and each Muslim is free to do his own thing? Muhammed prayed in a certain way, but so what. No Muslim should have to slavishly obey his example. That would make him more then they say and would be shirk. It appears to me that they are inconsistant at best.

The Quran tells us how important prayer is, how important modesty is, how important haj is…etc…but doesnt tell us exactly how to do most of these things. This is why Allah tells us that Muhammad is a beautiful model, and that we should follow him. In fact, Allah says that if you love Allah, then follow his messenger. Why? Because Mohamed is the Quran in action. When someone asked Aisha (Mohamed’s wife) about the character of theprophet, she replied that it was the Quran.

We obey his example because this is what Allah tells us to do.

As to Muslims praying however they want…well anyone can pray however they want…but we choose to worship God on His terms and not ours. As for praying in arabic, the prayers consist of reciting verses from the Quran, which was revealed in Arabic. It’s not a big deal, i think its great that all 1 billion of us pray the same exact way, reciting the same exact way…i think its a unity that no other religion has. Also, any supplication can be said in any language.

Again, you implied that Mohamed is divine…he is not, both the Quran and hadith make this clear. Have you ever read the Quran or the biography of the Prophet?

 

[Faith101]

LilyM:

What is the deal with the prayers having to be in Arabic? I think I read somewhere that the Arabic version of the Koran is also supposed to be better somehow?!? As if God only speaks Arabic! At least we Catholics have learned the lesson that using an unfamiliar language can actually be a hindrance to worship rather than a help.

The Quran was revealed in Arabic…and we believe that it is the direct word of God, therfore any translation by any human being renders it not divine.

Over 85% of Muslims are not Arabs. You dont have to understand Arabic to be a pious Muslim, as Mohammed said in his last sermon “no arab is superior over a non-arab…except in piety”. Many non-arabs do learn Arabic though, its really not that hard…i learned it.

 

[LilyM]

Faith101:

The Quran was revealed in Arabic…and we believe that it is the direct word of God, therfore any translation by any human being renders it not divine.

Over 85% of Muslims are not Arabs. You dont have to understand Arabic to be a pious Muslim, as Mohammed said in his last sermon “no arab is superior over a non-arab…except in piety”. Many non-arabs do learn Arabic though, its really not that hard…i learned it.

As if God speaks better or more fluently or more ‘divinely’ in one language as opposed to another, seriously! All human languages are just that - human inventions, God speaks to children as well, even before they’ve learned language. It’s this sort of literal slavish copying that makes me a bit suspicious of Islam. Mind you I’ve read one or two posts from devotees of the old Latin Mass who are almost as bad …

 

[cestusdei]

Faith,
At least you tried to respond. So you admit the quran does not contain everything we need. It never says how to pray or even that we should do exactly as Muhammed did in prayer. There is no clear instruction on how to pray and even Muslims disagree on certain details. And why should we need a mere man, like Muhammed, to tell us how to pray? Muslims don’t need intercessors or clergy right?

Therefore, if you are really Muslim you don’t have to pray 5 times a day in a certain prescribed fashion. You just have to pray when you feel led to do so. And you can pray whichever way you like. If another Muslim says you are wrong and must do it some other way then you can ignore him. You don’t need anyone to tell you what to do.

Even more importantly it should lead you to question the quran. If it is silent on such an important matter then maybe it really isn’t the greatest revelation. Maybe it is inadequate. Something to think about.

PS: Yes, I’ve read the quran.

 

[Muslim]

cestusdei:

Faith,
At least you tried to respond. So you admit the quran does not contain everything we need. It never says how to pray or even that we should do exactly as Muhammed did in prayer. There is no clear instruction on how to pray and even Muslims disagree on certain details. And why should we need a mere man, like Muhammed, to tell us how to pray? Muslims don’t need intercessors or clergy right?

Therefore, if you are really Muslim you don’t have to pray 5 times a day in a certain prescribed fashion. You just have to pray when you feel led to do so. And you can pray whichever way you like. If another Muslim says you are wrong and must do it some other way then you can ignore him. You don’t need anyone to tell you what to do.

Even more importantly it should lead you to question the quran. If it is silent on such an important matter then maybe it really isn’t the greatest revelation. Maybe it is inadequate. Something to think about.

PS: Yes, I’ve read the quran.

there are MINOR variations of the prayer but as a Muslim we are supposed to read the Qu’ran and the Hadiths that are AUTHENTICATED and does not contradict with the Qu’ran.
but yes, every Muslim virtually prays the same way and also it takes more time and patience to pray the way Muslims do than just saying some prayer which anyone can do.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Muslim:

there are MINOR variations of the prayer but as a Muslim we are supposed to read the Qu’ran and the Hadiths that are AUTHENTICATED and does not contradict with the Qu’ran.
but yes, every Muslim virtually prays the same way and also it takes more time and patience to pray the way Muslims do than just saying some prayer which anyone can do.

I noted Bukhari is a sahih hadith. Then may I ask if you believe this hadith ? Just answer YES or NO :

Bukhari 1.660:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Isn’t he who raises his head before the Imam afraid that Allah may transform his head into that of a donkey or his figure into that of a donkey?”

 

[Muslim]

Cyber Knight:

I noted Bukhari is a sahih hadith. Then may I ask if you believe this hadith ? Just answer YES or NO :

Bukhari 1.660:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Isn’t he who raises his head before the Imam afraid that Allah may transform his head into that of a donkey or his figure into that of a donkey?”

if the Prophet said it, then why not?

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Muslim:

if the Prophet said it, then why not?

so whatever prophet say you would do it?

 

[Muslim]

Cyber Knight:

so whatever prophet say you would do it?

sure, if it did not contradict the Qu’ran, i have no problem with it.