Islamic prayer

[LilyM]

Muslim:

It takes more time and patience to pray the way Muslims do than just saying some prayer which anyone can do.

If you’d ever been to a Mass or other Christian religious service, or ever ever read a Missal or a Book of Common Prayer, you’d know that there’s much more to the lives of most Christians than ‘just some prayer which anyone can do’

And I’m sure you Muslims can and do say spontaneous prayers outside of the formal ones anyway, just as we can. At least I hope so. Just out of interest how long do all your formal prayers take to say each day?

Anyways, I don’t want to jump down your throat, you seem to be a cut above a lot of the other Muslims on this forum.

 

[Muslim]

LilyM:

If you’d ever been to a Mass or other Christian religious service, or ever ever read a Missal or a Book of Common Prayer, you’d know that there’s much more to the lives of most Christians than ‘just some prayer which anyone can do’

And I’m sure you Muslims can and do say spontaneous prayers outside of the formal ones anyway, just as we can. At least I hope so. Just out of interest how long do all your formal prayers take to say each day?

Anyways, I don’t want to jump down your throat, you seem to be a cut above a lot of the other Muslims on this forum.

a mass or those service is no technically a prayer, its more of a community service, etc. which is still good as you usually have God in your mind. To us, when we pray, we pray individually but in groups and all facing the same direction to show unity (kind of hard to understand).
the typical prayer (the physical part) can take anywhere from 5min to 30min, 5 times a day.
however, if you include where people read the Qu’ran, go to the Mosque to discuss and listen to “sermons” it might take hours and some people even stay the whole night during the month of Ramadan. However, you can come in anytime and leave anytime for those because we have other real life obligations to our family, jobs, etc. i try to say prayers all 5 times per day but its hard cause of school and my work… but you can make it up which i am going to in a little bit anyways

 

[LilyM]

Muslim:

a mass or those service is no technically a prayer, its more of a community service, etc. which is still good as you usually have God in your mind. To us, when we pray, we pray individually but in groups and all facing the same direction to show unity (kind of hard to understand).
the typical prayer (the physical part) can take anywhere from 5min to 30min, 5 times a day.
however, if you include where people read the Qu’ran, go to the Mosque to discuss and listen to “sermons” it might take hours and some people even stay the whole night during the month of Ramadan. However, you can come in anytime and leave anytime for those because we have other real life obligations to our family, jobs, etc. i try to say prayers all 5 times per day but its hard cause of school and my work… but you can make it up which i am going to in a little bit anyways

Sounds awfully like a mass to me - we all stand sit and kneel at the same time, we have the words and a lot of the gestures (especially for the priest) in a set form and said in unison, almost exactly the same regardless of what day it is and what place in the world you may be in. I’ve certainly seen Baptist preachers who regularly talk for two or three hours, and there is such a thing as Perpetual Adoration in a fair few Catholic Churches, meaning people are there most if not all of the day and night.

Interesting to see how the other half does it though … Are you saying, though, that there’s no room for spontaneous prayer?

 

[Cyber_Knight]

8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Muslim:

sure, if it did not contradict the Qu’ran, i have no problem with it.

Nice!!!

 

[Muslim]

LilyM:

Sounds awfully like a mass to me - we all stand sit and kneel at the same time, we have the words and a lot of the gestures (especially for the priest) in a set form and said in unison, almost exactly the same regardless of what day it is and what place in the world you may be in. I’ve certainly seen Baptist preachers who regularly talk for two or three hours, and there is such a thing as Perpetual Adoration in a fair few Catholic Churches, meaning people are there most if not all of the day and night.

Interesting to see how the other half does it though … Are you saying, though, that there’s no room for spontaneous prayer?

Muslims pray all the time. even small prayers such as “Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim” (In the name of God, the most merciful the most beneficial) are done right before most things. thats why when you have these suicide bombers who are so used to saying these things, say it right beforethey blow themselves up… and its as if they are really doing it for God or whatever.
well, like i said its kind of like a mass but much more physical and you dont have to go to a Mosque to pray, you can pray at home if you want to and we dont have anything such as priests or bishops, etc. there is no middleman between you and God.
basically if Catholic Church required you to show up to pray 5 times a day (including at sunrise) , everyday, we will see how many people shows up
i have been to St. Patricks Church and I think its very beautiful but I have never been to a mass. I walked by or stood outside Churches during mass time but problem is that there are so many different types of churches, etc. that its confusing…some have music playing and its like a rock music concert or something…
in our Mosque, its just prayer and thats it.

 

[Muslim]

8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Nice!!!

your point?
i am not ignorant like you, i read the Qu’ran with an open mind and try to find the historical background of it and read it in context.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Muslim:

your point?

to show people Quran is the root of terrorism.

i am not ignorant like you, i read the Qu’ran with an open mind and try to find the historical background of it and read it in context.

according to Islam, people who opposite Islam must be ignorant

 

[freedomm]

Cyber Knight:

to show people Quran is the root of terrorism.

according to Islam, **people who opposite Islam must be ignorant **

Dear Cyber Knight:

Before making such nonsensical statement, you should have read/re-visited Matthew Chapter 23, in order to understand what is in fact IGNORANCE.

You may ask why Matthew 23? The reason I said is since you are coming form Catholic background, perhaps this ay help you to increase some common sense since Islam is like a forbidden tree to you and you see no ‘beatitude’ in it.

IMO, Matthew 23 should be an eye opening for you because here Jesus Christ admonishes the people to follow the good doctrine of Righteousness, not the bad example of the scribes and Pharisees. He warns his disciples not to imitate their ambition and denounces divers woes against them for their hypocrisy and blindness.

You may wonder who were those the scribes and Pharisees. ? Well, according to your Douay Rheims Bible:

The scribes were the doctors of the law of Moses.
and
**The Pharisees ** were a precise set of men, making profession of a more exact observance of the law: and upon that account greatly esteemed among the people.

What was the crime of these doctors of the law of Moses and greatly esteemed among the [God’s choosen] people of Israel??? You need to refer to one of the beautitude of Matthew 5, i.e verse 10:

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

And what is righteousness? According to your* The New American Bible* :

9 [10] Righteousness here, as usually in Matthew, means conduct in conformity with God’s will.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew5.htm#foot9 ]
Now this Righteousness which is conduct in conformity with God’s will, is THE KEY to your SALVATION, because Christ is reported to have said:

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 5:20]

Now let’s see who in fact were the scribes (doctors of the law of Moses) and the Pharisees(greatly esteemed among the [God’s choosen] people of Israel) when we hear Jesus speaking to the crowds and to his disciples (in Matthew 23):

2 **"The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. **

3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

4 They tie up heavy burdens 3 (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.

5 All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.

6 **They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, **

7 **greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’ **

8 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.

9 **And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. **

10 **Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. **

11 The greatest among you must be your servant.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Now Christ continues his speech with his SEVEN or EIGHT WOES:

13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven 8 before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.

14 -----( This verse is missing in the New American Bible, but “mysteriously” found in some other manuscripts)-------See my Note at the end-------

​

CONTINUED -------

 

[freedomm]

Dear Cyber Knight:

CONTINUED -------

15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You traverse sea and land to make one convert, and when that happens you make him a child of Gehenna twice as much as yourselves.

Note: condemnation to Gehenna (Hell fire), points to a higher degree of seriousness, as per Matthew 5:22 (N.A.Bible)]

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.'

17 Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred?

18 And you say, 'If one swears by the altar, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gift on the altar, one is obligated.'

19 You blind ones, which is greater, the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?

---

23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others.

24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.

26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.

27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.

28 **Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing./B]

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous,

30 **and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ **

31 Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets;

32 now fill up what your ancestors measured out!

33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna (Hell-Fire)?​

• • • Continued - - - -**

 

[freedomm]

Dear Cyber Knight:

• • • Continued - - - -

The denunciation of scribes and Pharisees ends with this lament over Jerusalem, which has repeatedly rejected and murdered those whom God has sent to her.

37 "**Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! **

38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.

39 I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’"

Note: According to The New american Bible:

Some manuscripts add a verse at or after Matthew 23:12 **“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You devour the houses of widows and, as a pretext, recite lengthy prayers. Because of this, you will receive a very severe condemnation.” **
Cf Mark 12:40; Luke 20:47. This “woe” is almost identical with Mark 12:40 and seems to be an interpolation derived from that text

[usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm#foot9]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm#foot9])

Now the question for you is why those:

The scribes who were the doctors of the law of Moses.
and
**The Pharisees ** who were a precise set of men, making profession of a more exact observance of the law: and upon that account greatly esteemed among the people,
are called by Jesus Christ as:

- hypocrites
- blind guides
- Blind fools
- You blind ones
- full of plunder
- self-indulged
- full of dead men’s bones
- every kind of filth
- evildoers.
- the children of those who murdered the prophets
- serpents
- brood of vipers–???​

---

Here the key word is “BLIND”. What does it mean, Mr./Ms.Cyber Knight??

---

 

[LilyM]

Freedomm, what on earth does your post have to do either with the topic of the thread (which is Islamic prayer) or cyberknight’s comment, which was about the Quran supporting terrorism? It is totally unclear - and whatever your point is you absolutely should make it without such a long and tedious post consisting almost entirely of verbatim quotes of the Bible.

 

[freedomm]

Dear LilyM:

Becase our dear Cyber Knight, seems to have very similar problem as those Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ time had, when it comes to understanding the word **IGNORANCE (Jahiliyyah) and comparing to Islam.

** So my qouting all the SEVEN or EIGHT WOES of Jesus are not in vain, if it were Okay with Jesus Christ while addressing to **The scribes ** who were the doctors of the law of Moses and The Pharisees who were a precise set of men, making profession of a more exact observance of the law and upon that account greatly esteemed among the people.

Obviously our dear Cyber Knight, seems not as learned/expert in Law, as those Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ time once were.

So, let our dear Cyber Knight, ponder on the rationale behind the SEVEN or EIGHT WOES and the following words uttered by Jesus:

** - hypocrites

• blind ** guides
• Blind fools
• You blind ones
• full of plunder
• self-indulged
• full of dead men’s bones
• every kind of filth
• evildoers.
• the children of those who murdered the prophets
• serpents
• brood of vipers–???

---

Here the key word is “blind”. What does it mean, Mr./Ms.Cyber Knight??​

---

 

[Cyber_Knight]

LilyM:

Freedomm, what on earth does your post have to do either with the topic of the thread (which is Islamic prayer) or cyberknight’s comment, which was about the Quran supporting terrorism? It is totally unclear - and whatever your point is you absolutely should make it without such a long and tedious post consisting almost entirely of verbatim quotes of the Bible.

See Lily… he claims that I am blind (ignorant) look what he has done here and there jumping like a monkey in a cage, spread bible verses… keep doing tu quoque… he doesnt seem to understand what tu quoque mean… too bad… oh well… he is a… ya’know

 

[LilyM]

Cyber Knight:

See Lily… he claims that I am blind (ignorant) look what he has done here and there jumping like a monkey in a cage, spread bible verses… keep doing tu quoque… he doesnt seem to understand what tu quoque mean… too bad… oh well… he is a… ya’know

whatever freedomm is, if he can’t be it in a less wordy manner, he’s going to be out on his ear pretty soon :yup:

 

[freedomm]

Cyber Knight:

See Lily… he claims that I am blind (ignorant)…

Dear Cyber Knight:

Why don’t you just answer my questions?

My reply (*consists of 3 posts *) was in response to your posed foolish and ignorant question.

Had you not displayed such IGNORANCE in your post(s), I would not have qouted those beautiful 7 or 8 WOES and WORDS meant for those high esteemed Jewish Scribes and the Pharisees, uttered by your Lord Jesus Christ, as “reported” and “inspired by the Holy Spirit” to St. Matthew (if St. Matthew did infact write the “Gospel” attributed to his name and was not a tax-collector, and if he infact was a disciple of Jesus and not a guilty of plagearising St. Mark’s Gospel freely–on wholesale basis…this is another subject to discuss, though)

---

 

[George_Waters]

freedomm:

Dear Cyber Knight:

Why don’t you just answer my questions?

My reply (*consists of 3 posts *) was in response to your posed foolish and ignorant question.

Had you not displayed such IGNORANCE in your post(s), I would not have qouted those beautiful 7 or 8 WOES and WORDS meant for those high esteemed Jewish Scribes and the Pharisees, uttered by your Lord Jesus Christ, as “reported” and “inspired by the Holy Spirit” to St. Matthew (if St. Matthew did infact write the “Gospel” attributed to his name and was not a tax-collector, and if he infact was a disciple of Jesus and not a guilty of plagearising St. Mark’s Gospel freely–on wholesale basis…this is another subject to discuss, though)

---

The Bible is corrupt right? So why are you quoting from something that is obviously false? Oh, that’s right, because it seemingly supports your case so that verse isn’t corrupt!

 

[inJESUS]

The Quran tells us how important prayer is, how important modesty is, how important haj is…etc…but doesnt tell us exactly how to do most of these things.

strange…it threatens us kaffir a thousand time with a billion repetitive verse but it fails to address such important issues…

In fact, Allah says that if you love Allah, then follow his messenger. Why? Because Mohamed is the Quran in action.

but mohamad had privileges that apply only to him…like money and women. So you cannot immitate him a lot coz you are not as privileged as him.

As to Muslims praying however they want…well anyone can pray however they want…but we choose to worship God on His terms and not ours. As for praying in arabic, the prayers consist of reciting verses from the Quran, which was revealed in Arabic. It’s not a big deal, i think its great that all 1 billion of us pray the same exact way, reciting the same exact way…i think its a unity that no other religion has

is it great that millions recite what they don’t understand? is allah more happy cuz a muslim prays in arabic even if he understands nothing?

Also, any supplication can be said in any language.

so supplication is fine but prayer is not cuz allah’s preferred language is arabic…i see…am pretty sure allah was an arab

Anyway, allah was not very sure as to which direction muslims should pray…he started first to Jerusalem ( to please the jews and convince them) but later changed to Mecca…

 

[inJESUS]

The Quran was revealed in Arabic…and we believe that it is the direct word of God, therfore any translation by any human being renders it not divine.

so technincally, since the quran was written without vowels and grammatical marks, it means that when vowels and marks were added LATER, it became no more divine ? and how do you make sure that those who wrote it did not err since humans err?

Over 85% of Muslims are not Arabs. You dont have to understand Arabic to be a pious Muslim,

how can you feel what you are saying if you don’t understand it?

as Mohammed said in his last sermon “no arab is superior over a non-arab…except in piety”.

just a question : are you sure this hadith is authentic ? i read it in a muslim link that it is not…

 

[freedomm]

George Waters:

The Bible is corrupt right? So why are you quoting from something that is obviously false? Oh, that’s right, because it seemingly supports your case so that verse isn’t corrupt!

Dear George Waters:

As far the corruption of the**New Testament’s ** books, what could be the best source for YOU, to know other than your Catholic Encyclopedia, which tells you this:

IV. TRANSMISSION OF THE TEXT [OF THE NEW TESTAMENT]

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author–all have been in some way altered. The material conditions under which a book was spread before the invention of printing (1440), the little care of the copyists, correctors, and glossators for the text, so different from the desire of accuracy exhibited to-day, explain sufficiently the divergences we find between various manuscripts of the same work. To these causes may be added, in regard to the Scriptures, exegetical difficulties and dogmatical controversies. To exempt the scared writings from ordinary conditions a very special providence would have been necessary, and it has not been the will of God to exercise this providence. More than 150,000 different readings have been found in the older witnesses to the text of the New Testament– which in itself is a proof that Scriptures are not the only, nor the principal, means of revelation. In the concrete order of the present economy God had only to prevent any such alteration of the sacred texts as would put the Church in the moral necessity of announcing with certainty as the word of God what in reality was only a human utterance.
[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: New Testament]](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14530a.htm#IV])

Since you (Catholics) still hold your Gopels as inspired Word of God/Holy Spirit, thus it makes sense to ask you or Mr./Ms. Cyber Knight, what he/she understood by the word** ‘blind’** or all those Seven or Eight WOES, reported to have “uttered” by Jesus Christ, because it is you who have a complete faith in your Gospels.

As far my view, I will answer it later in detail. First I want to hear from Mr./Ms. Cyber Knight.

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

Dear Cyber Knight:

Why don’t you just answer my questions?

My reply (*consists of 3 posts *) was in response to your posed foolish and ignorant question.

Had you not displayed such IGNORANCE in your post(s), I would not have qouted those beautiful 7 or 8 WOES and WORDS meant for those high esteemed Jewish Scribes and the Pharisees, uttered by your Lord Jesus Christ, as “reported” and “inspired by the Holy Spirit” to St. Matthew (if St. Matthew did infact write the “Gospel” attributed to his name and was not a tax-collector, and if he infact was a disciple of Jesus and not a guilty of plagearising St. Mark’s Gospel freely–on wholesale basis…this is another subject to discuss, though)

---

did Uthman plagirize the quran as well and burnt all the original copies? or maybe the people who added the vowels and marks later ? but were they able to find some verses in the belly of the goat that ate allah’s words as per little Aisha?