Islamic Prophecy

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hamba2han said:
To those who are asking for more proof that the body is really that of the Pharaoh of the Exodus, let me ask you this question:

Can you show me proof that the Exodus really happened?

Anyone who believes in the Exodus and the parting of the sea is basing his belief on faith alone because as far as I know, there are no facts to prove that it really happened according to the way scriptures describe it or that there is any truth to the story at all.

Like I said, deciding on what we accept as historical truth is largely a matter of faith.

This sign of the Pharaoh’s body is only for those who believe… and it helps that there is forensic and scientific evidence to back up this belief that Merneptah is indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

Those who refuse to believe this evidence from Dr. Bucaille and his forensic team should instead focus their efforts on finding evidence of their own that the Exodus really did happen to begin with.
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First, there is no forensic evidence to back up the belief. At least, you haven’t shown us any cite that discusses this. Dr. Bucaille and his forensic tead DID NOT conclude that the mummy they examined died from drowning. THey made a RELIGIOUS conclusion that, because Exodus says Pharoah drowned (it doesn’t), that the mummy probably died from drowning. Not forensic evidence at all.

Second, what is the point of making a sign for those who already believe? Miracles fall into two categories – signs and wonders. This one is clearly meant to be a sign, but a sign of what? That Exodus happened? Hardly His best work, if that is the intent. If anything it muddies the waters instead of clearing them. Since we’d expect pharoah’s body to have been lost at sea and not mummified, alleging that we have his mummy makes exodus less, not more, likely.

However, reading the passage as God sparing pharoah’s life so that he could live with his failure and be a sign to everyone of God’s power in delivering the Jews from Egypt… that makes sense.
 
hamba2han said:
To those who are asking for more proof that the body is really that of the Pharaoh of the Exodus, let me ask you this question:

Can you show me proof that the Exodus really happened?

Anyone who believes in the Exodus and the parting of the sea is basing his belief on faith alone because as far as I know, there are no facts to prove that it really happened according to the way scriptures describe it or that there is any truth to the story at all.

Like I said, deciding on what we accept as historical truth is largely a matter of faith.

This sign of the Pharaoh’s body is only for those who believe… and it helps that there is forensic and scientific evidence to back up this belief that Merneptah is indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

Those who refuse to believe this evidence from Dr. Bucaille and his forensic team should instead focus their efforts on finding evidence of their own that the Exodus really did happen to begin with.
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This is an unacceptable & unreasonable suggestion because the so-called prophecy of Pharaoh’s lost body in your Scripture is not directly associated with the incident of Exodus! Be sure that we do not have to believe in your supposed prophecy or sign to prove the historic reality of Moses’ related miracle. That’s not essential to our faith, being an additional story derived from wishful thinking.

(This is why even Mohammed’s scribes referred to Pharaoh’s alleged conversion to Islam only once although they always laid emphasis on his death through drowning! Consequently, those scribes did not regard Allah’s - or someone else’s - words to Pharaoh as a significant or indispensable part of the story of Exodus)

I guess it is high time some Muslim scholars focused their efforts on demonstrating that the Islamic Scripture endorsed the existence of two different Pharaohs throughout Moses’ life instead of tampering with vague verses like 10: 92 to fabricate prophecies.

Peace,

Angelos N. (ex-Muslim)
 
You know hamba2han, there are three of us now that are willing to accept that the sign was the use of His power to free the Hebrews in spite of Pharaoh and his army and allowing the pharaoh to live so he, and subsequent generations, would know it was the work of God.

You keep arguing points of evidence that are not convincing accept to those who want to believe. Wanting to believe is really the same as not wanting to believe. Both are cases of a closed mind in spite of or in the face of the evidence.

Why not agree to disagree and discuss another Islamic prophecy?
 
George_Waters said:
hamba2han,

The choice to believe or not to believe is not the only factor. If someone is not willing to believe then you are correct, no evidence will sway them. However if someone is willing to believe, but the evidence does not support that belief then they will not believe. That is due to a lack of compelling evidence, not a lack of desire to believe.

The attitude that I must accept things that the evidence does not support was one thing I did not like about Islam when I considered it for my own faith back in the mid-eighties. I was willing to believe, but the evidence was lacking (to me) and not compelling enough for me to accept the belief.
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That is the crux of the matter! Very well put. What actual proof do Muslims have that Muhammad was really a prophet? And to claim that the Quran is the word of God simply because Muhammad said so or because of its “beauty”??

I read an article on FFI recently of a westerner who embraced Islam and eventually left, who once questioned something about its teachings and the iman practically attacked him! What makes Muslims act so irrationally? What are those imams afraid of? That if Muslims are allowed to question freely their beliefs, they might come to the conclusion like the Muslim convert, that Muhammad was a totally evil man and that Allah was just a figment of his imagination? One Muslim friend once told him that he “thought” too much! So does the whole thing amount to something becoming true because we want it to be so? :rolleyes:

By the way, the westerner who left Islam and was so disillusioned with religion, that’s he’s become an atheist.

The other day a French teacher was killed by her students for throwing a copy of the Quran on the floor! Is that normal behavior?? Are they all mad or what? That’s what comes of blindly emulating someone who does not deserve such devotion.

If I said that Charles Manson was my hero and I wanted to be just like him, what kind of person would I be? A monster! Can someone follow someone evil and be good?
I saw a program on Nova awhile back and I am not so sure all the royal mummies have been found. Would you kindly cite your source that all the pharaoh’s remains have been discovered? Thanks.
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Akhenaton hasn’t been found for one. I’m sure there are probably many others.

Vickie
 
George_Waters said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but did not embalmers remove all the internal organs and after treating them place them in canopic jars? How was it determined that he had a heart attack when the heart and been removed and embalmed?
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You’re correct! The organs were placed in canopic jars.

Vickie
 
Valke2 said:
However, reading the passage as God sparing pharoah’s life so that he could live with his failure and be a sign to everyone of God’s power in delivering the Jews from Egypt… that makes sense.
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George_Waters said:
there are three of us now that are willing to accept that the sign was the use of His power to free the Hebrews in spite of Pharaoh and his army and allowing the pharaoh to live so he, and subsequent generations, would know it was the work of God.
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For those who say that the Pharaoh survived the sea crossing, I need to ask:

Don’t you believe what your own Bible is saying??

Exodus 14:28
And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
*
The Psalms 136:13-15*
To him which divided the Red sea into parts:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
and made Israel to pass through the midst of it:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
for his mercy endureth for ever.

These Biblical verses clearly point out that “there remained not so much as one of them”, “there was not one of them left” and “but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea”.

How on earth can those who believe in the truth of the Bible have any doubts at all that Pharaoh also perished in the Red sea?

Does it make sense to you that according to The Psalms 136:15, Pharaoh was overthrown in the Red sea together with his host but now according to yourselves, he alone somehow miraculously survived the ordeal and yet it did not even merit a mention in the Bible?

If you are going to doubt what your own scripture states about the fate of the Pharaoh, then why should you believe the story of the Exodus in the first place?
 
hamba2han, how have you managed to twist it so that by not believing your odd claims about some Pharaoh’s body you claim we shouldn’t or can’t believe that the Exodus happened?
That’s just bizarre - that’s a definite non sequitur.
I think you need to think a bit more before posting to be honest, that’s not being nasty just some good advice:thumbsup:
 
hamba2han said:
For those who say that the Pharaoh survived the sea crossing, I need to ask:

Don’t you believe what your own Bible is saying??

Exodus 14:28
And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

The Psalms 106:11
**And the waters covered their enemies: **
there was not one of them left.

The Psalms 136:13-15
**To him which divided the Red sea into parts: **
for his mercy endureth for ever:
**and made Israel to pass through the midst of it: **
for his mercy endureth for ever:
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
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You are misreading these passages. They say nothing about the fate of the Pharaoh. The first two refer to the Pharoah’s soldiers and horses.

Regarding the Psalms passage, na’ar simply means “shook off.” So the verse states that God “shook off” the Egyptians in their chase after the Israelites. It says nothing as to who drowned in the sea.

Archeologists have already proven that Amenhotep II, the Pharaoh of Exodus, lived well beyond these events.
 
Jews believe the Exodus occurred, but they don’t believe in the quran.
 
hamba2han said:
For those who say that the Pharaoh survived the sea crossing, I need to ask:

Don’t you believe what your own Bible is saying??

Exodus 14:28
And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
*
The Psalms 136:13-15*
To him which divided the Red sea into parts:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
and made Israel to pass through the midst of it:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
for his mercy endureth for ever.

These Biblical verses clearly point out that “there remained not so much as one of them”, “there was not one of them left” and “but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea”.

How on earth can those who believe in the truth of the Bible have any doubts at all that Pharaoh also perished in the Red sea?

Does it make sense to you that according to The Psalms 136:15, Pharaoh was overthrown in the Red sea together with his host but now according to yourselves, he alone somehow miraculously survived the ordeal and yet it did not even merit a mention in the Bible?

If you are going to doubt what your own scripture states about the fate of the Pharaoh, then why should you believe the story of the Exodus in the first place?
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To begin with, when I say it makes sense, I don’t mean that it makes sense within the context of my scripture. I don’t follow the Quran, but the explanation that pharoah lives makes sense to me if you are trying to explain that particular verse in Quran. To try to explain it as a prophecy that pharoah would be mummified makes no sense and acts as no sign.

As to whether pharaoah actually drowned, the scripture is unclear. Psalm 136 uses the word na’ar which means “shook off”. This is the same word used in Exodus 14:27. God shook off the Egyptians chasing the Jews.

IN Exodus 14:28 the waters cover all of pharoahs army. It does not expressly say Pharoah was covered. When we look at 15:19, it also does not say Pharoah or his personal horse was drowned in the sea. In short, as I had said earlier, whether Pharoah himself drowns is not clear.
 
hamba2han said:
For those who say that the Pharaoh survived the sea crossing, I need to ask:

Don’t you believe what your own Bible is saying??

Exodus 14:28
And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
*
The Psalms 136:13-15*
To him which divided the Red sea into parts:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
and made Israel to pass through the midst of it:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
for his mercy endureth for ever.

These Biblical verses clearly point out that “there remained not so much as one of them”, “there was not one of them left” and “but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea”.

How on earth can those who believe in the truth of the Bible have any doubts at all that Pharaoh also perished in the Red sea?

Does it make sense to you that according to The Psalms 136:15, Pharaoh was overthrown in the Red sea together with his host but now according to yourselves, he alone somehow miraculously survived the ordeal and yet it did not even merit a mention in the Bible?

If you are going to doubt what your own scripture states about the fate of the Pharaoh, then why should you believe the story of the Exodus in the first place?
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Exodus 14:28
And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

You will see in the area highlighted in blue that it was the chariots and the horsemen and all the HOST of Pharaoh that were wiped out. It does not say Pharaoh was killed.

The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.

Again there is no mention of Pharaoh and remember the Psalms are not written as history.

The Psalms 136:13-15
To him which divided the Red sea into parts:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
and made Israel to pass through the midst of it:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
for his mercy endureth for ever.

“Overthrew” is NOT synonymous with killed. Many world leaders have been overthrown, but not all were killed.

”How on earth can those who believe in the truth of the Bible have any doubts at all that Pharaoh also perished in the Red sea?” Because nothing says the Pharaoh was killed and frankly it is a moot point to Jews and Christians. Only Muslims will find this an issue.

”If you are going to doubt what your own scripture states about the fate of the Pharaoh, then why should you believe the story of the Exodus in the first place?” No doubt here. See above.
 
I’ll say this much for this thread. At least it gave me something to raise at the seder (did pharaoh drown?). I guess you could say Islam has enriched my understanding of Judaism. 😉
 
Valke2 said:
I’ll say this much for this thread. At least it gave me something to raise at the seder (did pharaoh drown?). I guess you could say Islam has enriched my understanding of Judaism. 😉
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This thread has made me more interested in the history of the exodus myself. I have to hand it to hamba2han, at least he is staying on topic and and he is persistant.
 
Valke2 said:
I’ll say this much for this thread. At least it gave me something to raise at the seder (did pharaoh drown?). I guess you could say Islam has enriched my understanding of Judaism. 😉
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Valke2,

Would you be so kind as to let us know what you find out?

Thank you.
 
The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.

Are you saying here that Pharaoh was NOT their enemy but all of his host were and therefore this would explain why none of them were left and only Pharaoh who was not their enemy survived??

The Psalms 136:15
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:

Are you saying here that both Pharaoh and his host were “shook off” in the middle of the sea but it was only Pharaoh alone among all of his host who managed to survive the onslaught of the towering waves coming at them from both sides??

Does the term “there remained not so much as one of them” mean anything more than what it is supposed to mean??

To all who have faith in the truth of the Bible:

Why are you so intent on putting yourselves through so much pain and anguish???

It is not Muslims who are making you disbelieve your own scripture, it is you yourselves who are doing it all on your own.
 
hamba2han said:
It is not Muslims who are making you disbelieve your own scripture, it is you yourselves who are doing it all on your own.
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hamba2han,

I do not believe anyone here (Jew or Christian) is disbelieving our own scripture. We believe what it says. We are OK with what it says. You don’t believe it, but seem to be quite upset by what it says and does not say.

The whole point is that God delivered the Hebrews out of Egypt in spite of the Pharaoh. That’s it. If the pharaoh died or not is not an issue to us. It is only an issue to you to prove this Islamic prophacy.

Agree to disagree and let it go.
 
George_Waters said:
You don’t believe it, but seem to be quite upset by what it says and does not say.
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I am not upset, just dumbfounded that people who profess faith in the truth of the Bible have chosen not to believe some things written within it which does not really leave much room at all for doubt or ambiguity.
 
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