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cestusdei
Guest
I am dumbfounded anyone could believe in the quran. So I guess we are even.
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Valke2
Guest
All I can tell you is that Jews are not shy about writing commentary on the scripture. I’m sure I’ll come up with something, but my initial research is that it is not clear as to whether pharoah himself drowned in the reed sea.
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Valke2
Guest
The Pharaoh’s army pursues, but a miraculous event at the “Reed Sea” (not the Red Sea) saves the people from recapture. As is usually the case, the oldest account, the “Song of Moses” (Ex. 15:1-18) is the least detailed. This poem, whose archaic Hebrew suggests it is one of the oldest compositions in the Bible—it may have been composed as little as a century or a century and ahalf after the crossing—only says that "Pharaoh’s chariots and his host he cast into the sea; and his picked officers are sunk in the Red Sea.
bahai-library.com/unpubl.articles/judaism.bahai.html
bahai-library.com/unpubl.articles/judaism.bahai.html
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jack_hawkins
Guest
The Psalms are not meant to be authoritative history, they are lyrical and full of metaphors and poetic language - therefore to say because a Psalm states that “not one remained” therefore Pharaoh was killed is to not take into account the context.
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Montalban
Guest
When I was in 8th grade a Brother (Christian Brother) told us that the Red Sea could have been rendered Reed Sea because in Hebrew there’s no vowels. However this theory of his works only if the Hebrew words for Red and Reed are equally similar.
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Valke2
Guest
The Hebrew yam suph is used. “yam” usually means “sea”, or any large body of water. “Suph” means reeds or rushes. It is the same word used to describe where Moses’ baby basket was placed in the Nile, earlier in the story.
So if you are looking for a literal explanation, you have to go with Sea of Reeds.
There’s a thread on this subject floating around somewhere.
So if you are looking for a literal explanation, you have to go with Sea of Reeds.
There’s a thread on this subject floating around somewhere.
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Montalban
Guest
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George_Waters
Guest
hamba2han,
Like I said, I believe in the truth that God freed the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt in spite of the pharaoh and destroyed the pharaoh’s army in the process. That is the whole point. You claim there is little room for doubt or ambiguity, but by your own statement you recognize there is at least some room for doubt. Honestly, does it really matter if Pharaoh died or not? Wouldn’t it make more sense that God allowed him to live so in his defeat he would be a sign of the one true God’s power?
Perhaps this is a difference between Muslim and Judeo/Christian thought. You are looking for evidence in every line; we are looking at what the narrative is telling us about God.
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George_Waters
Guest
Very good point Sir. Poetry & allogory are common to both the Bible and the Quarn, this should be no surprise to anyone.
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hamba2han
Guest
Christians and Jews really should be applying the same standards of accuracy to the Bible as they so obviously do when they are examining and analysing the accuracy of the Qur’an and the Hadeeth.
And BTW, the phrase “there remained not so much as one of them” comes from Exodus 14:28 and not from the Psalm.
Also, we shouln’t be questioning the intentions of the Creator on why He does the things that He does for there is a reason why the Exodus happened and there is a reason too why Pharaoh and his host perished in the sea.
We as the creations should learn the true significance of these epic events in human history and we really should never even attempt to trivialise these lessons by suggesting “better” ways in which the Creator could have gone about it.
And BTW, the phrase “there remained not so much as one of them” comes from Exodus 14:28 and not from the Psalm.
Also, we shouln’t be questioning the intentions of the Creator on why He does the things that He does for there is a reason why the Exodus happened and there is a reason too why Pharaoh and his host perished in the sea.
We as the creations should learn the true significance of these epic events in human history and we really should never even attempt to trivialise these lessons by suggesting “better” ways in which the Creator could have gone about it.
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Valke2
Guest
but the verse that you highlighted is discussing pharoah’s army…
The waters turned back and covered teh chariots and the horsemen-- Pharaoh’s entire army that had followed after them-- into the sea; not one of htem remained.
I would think that if Phaorah was included, the verse would have been more specific, as the Torah generally records the deaths of rulers who were adverse to Israel.
The waters turned back and covered teh chariots and the horsemen-- Pharaoh’s entire army that had followed after them-- into the sea; not one of htem remained.
I would think that if Phaorah was included, the verse would have been more specific, as the Torah generally records the deaths of rulers who were adverse to Israel.
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Valke2
Guest
Also, in Chapter 15, which opens with the song Moses and the Israelites sang (which as I mentioned in a previous post, is believed to be the oldest part of the Torah), it expressly states that Pharoah’s chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the pick of his officers are drwoned in the Sea of Reeds.
Why specifically mention the officers and then fail to mention pharoah himself? A likely reason would be that pharoah did not drown with his army and officers.
Why specifically mention the officers and then fail to mention pharoah himself? A likely reason would be that pharoah did not drown with his army and officers.
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hamba2han
Guest
As I mentioned, you really should be analysing the Bible with the same standard of accuracy as you do when analysing the Qur’an.
If the Psalms says that Pharaoh was “shook off” in the middle of the sea together with his host, then the phrase “there remained not so much as one of them” in Exodus 14:28 would surely mean that he too would be included among the dead.
You cannot be having it both ways i.e. either the Pharaoh perished together with his host… OR … he survived and this of course would mean that the Psalms 106:11 verse “And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left” is wrong.
Which is which here?.. Is Exodus correct and the Psalms wrong?
Like I said, you cannot have it both ways.
If the Psalms says that Pharaoh was “shook off” in the middle of the sea together with his host, then the phrase “there remained not so much as one of them” in Exodus 14:28 would surely mean that he too would be included among the dead.
You cannot be having it both ways i.e. either the Pharaoh perished together with his host… OR … he survived and this of course would mean that the Psalms 106:11 verse “And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left” is wrong.
Which is which here?.. Is Exodus correct and the Psalms wrong?
Like I said, you cannot have it both ways.
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George_Waters
Guest
You are correct! The same standard should be used which means Muslims need to recognize the nuances of language and allegory in the Bible as well.
You are taking a section of the verse to meet your own agenda. I thought you recognized this should not be done to the Bible or the Quran.
At this point I would be forced to say you are attempting to trivialize the lesson by adding things that are not there.
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jonfan
Guest
Actually the Quran didn’t even exist before the 8 the century unless of course you can find me inscriptions or texts that agree with eachother before the 7th century. Same with the Hadith.
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Montalban
Guest
No! Christians and Jews should start applying the rules appropriate to those books.
One does not claim that the Bible is the word for word translation of the speaking God.
Further, different instances in the Bible have different intent. So that although David may have had his general killed so he could take his wife, there’s no “Thou shalt act like this…” before it, so it’s not an example for us to follow, but a recounting of what did happen to happen!
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Valke2
Guest
Except that Exodus 14:28 is clearly dealing with Pharoah’s army. Not Pharoah himself.
Psalms are not inconsistent with Exodus. You are a big fan of translation issues. I’m telling you that you are dealing with a translation issue here.
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George_Waters
Guest
hamba2han,
The Psalms were not written to be historical accounts, but liturgical songs. Not everything in the Bible is literal and intended to relate detailed facts. You know this.
You believe that the sun sets in a muddy spring right? That’s what it says in the Quran and if we are going to apply the same standards that you seem to insist on doing to the Bible then all Muslim must believe this… contrary to the facts of our solar system.
C’mon man! Let this go! This is a discussion not a contest.
I do want to thank you for tweaking my curiosity about this subject. I plan on doing more reading on the subject this weekend and have had some good discussions with some family members.
Are there any other Islamic prophecies you’d like to discuss?
The Psalms were not written to be historical accounts, but liturgical songs. Not everything in the Bible is literal and intended to relate detailed facts. You know this.
You believe that the sun sets in a muddy spring right? That’s what it says in the Quran and if we are going to apply the same standards that you seem to insist on doing to the Bible then all Muslim must believe this… contrary to the facts of our solar system.
C’mon man! Let this go! This is a discussion not a contest.
I do want to thank you for tweaking my curiosity about this subject. I plan on doing more reading on the subject this weekend and have had some good discussions with some family members.
Are there any other Islamic prophecies you’d like to discuss?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Drowned or not, Merneptah or not, there were other royal mummies found so it seems unlikely that a royal mummy would be evidence of anything other than the fact that the ancient Egyptians practised mummification of their dead.
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Booklover
Guest
I’m still waiting patiently for a Muslim to explain why God would state that the stars were created as missiles to throw at the jinns!
No takers on the Mahdi??
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