Islamic Prophecy

[Angelos]

I cannot believe that I am posting this again:
**
It is clear for any Arabic speaker that the special mention of “in the body” (i.e. bibadanika) means clearly that it is the lifeless body of Pharaoh that was saved and not Pharaoh himself. .**

… and your so-called verse of prophecy somehow promises that Pharaoh himself will be made a SIGN for the mankind, not his dead body!

010: 92 But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee.

The SIGN is Pharaoh, not his body! Besides, the verb preserve (or leave) is mysteriously missing from this verse!

tragic end for Islamic claims indeed

Angelos N.

 

[Valke2]

And who exactly was it who examined his body and determined the cause of death?

I know the answer to this question… do you?

I believe it was a Dr. Smith. And I think I even pasted his quote above.

Grafton Elliot Smith, The Royal Mummies, 1912, Cairo, pp.65-70

 

[George_Waters]

hamba2han,

“A medical examination of this mummy, has, shown that the body could not have stayed in the water for long, because it does not show signs of deterioration due to prolonged submersion.” - The Quran and Modern Science: by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (Edited by Dr. A. A. Bilal Philips)

I found this at whyIslam.org so I guess we can totally rule out being in the water for quite some time, eh?

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han,

“A medical examination of this mummy, has, shown that the body could not have stayed in the water for long, because it does not show signs of deterioration due to prolonged submersion.” - The Quran and Modern Science: by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (Edited by Dr. A. A. Bilal Philips)

I found this at whyIslam.org so I guess we can totally rule out being in the water for quite some time, eh?

And you do not find this strange that the body did not stay in the water for long?

Although not conclusive, this to me would be another indication of divine intervention to save the body from deterioration.

 

[jack_hawkins]

And you do not find this strange that the body did not stay in the water for long?

Although not conclusive, this to me would be another indication of divine intervention to save the body from deterioration.

you’ve twisted what was said
you’ve turned “the body could have not been in the body very long” into “the body did not stay in the water very long”

a cynical observer would say that many many bodies wash up on the shore, and they are not all counted as miracles
the explanation tends to be the tides:thumbsup:

 

[George_Waters]

And you do not find this strange that the body did not stay in the water for long?

Although not conclusive, this to me would be another indication of divine intervention to save the body from deterioration.

This was not the body of a poor man it was the body of a king. I am confident his body would be retrived posthaste. But all that is moot as the archaeological and forensic evidence indicate he did not die of drowning, but of old age.

 

[George_Waters]

This prophesy seems more like it is based on man’s assumption then God’s knowledge. Scholars can’t even agree exactly when the exodus took place let alone who was the pharaoh at the time. I think it was assumed the pharaoh drowned and Mohammed based the information he dictated to his scribes based on that assumption. If it was Merneptah then the evidence does not support drowning. Besides, why would God “lie” to us by giving us evidence contrary to His natural law?

 

[cestusdei]

Appealing to an Egyptian mummy to prove islam…it would be funny if they weren’t serious. In fact it is funny because they are serious. No wonder they eschew reason and Spain prints more books in a year then all the arab world combined.

 

[hamba2han]

As for determining the likely cause of death, I would place far greater faith in the judgment of an eminent medical scientist, surgeon and a member of the French Academy of Medicine like Dr. Mauruce Bucalille who together with his team did indeed performed a proper forensic examination of the mummified body of Merneptah than a non-surgeon like Grafton Elliot Smith, respectable though he may have been as a scientist.

Heck, there was a fist-size hole in the skull of the mummy that Dr. Smith did not even mention as a possible cause of death.

By comparison, Dr. Bucaille found that Merneptah had a massive heart attack and also discovered that the body had other broken bones which is consintent with the manner of death of the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

 

[Valke2]

As for determining the likely cause of death, I would place far greater faith in the judgment of an eminent medical scientist, surgeon and a member of the French Academy of Medicine like Dr. Mauruce Bucalille who together with his team did indeed performed a proper forensic examination of the mummified body of Merneptah than a non-surgeon like Grafton Elliot Smith, respectable though he may have been as a scientist.

Heck, there was a fist-size hole in the skull of the mummy that Dr. Smith did not even mention as a possible cause of death.

By comparison, Dr. Bucaille found that Merneptah had a massive heart attack and also discovered that the body had other broken bones which is consintent with the manner of death of the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

He’s hardly an eminent medical scientest and there’s no proof he ever examined the mummy or what methods he used to examine the mummy. He has/had a medical degree. His books are hardly rely on scientific data, and he’s pretty much a quack.
answering-islam.org/Campbell/s1c2.html

Also, there’s nothing I’ve seen to indicate that he speaks or reads arabic, or that he is even a muslim. So how can his interpetations of Quran be trusted?

 

[hamba2han]

As to the cause of death of the Pharaoh of the Exodus as stated in the Qur’an, it is best that the Qur’an itself explain:

017.101-103
**To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!”
So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him. **

and also:

043.051-56
**And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying: "O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, (witness) these streams flowing underneath my (palace)? What! see ye not then?
"Am I not better than this (Moses), who is a contemptible wretch and can scarcely express himself clearly?
“Then why are not gold bracelets bestowed on him, or (why) come (not) with him angels accompanying him in procession?”
Thus did he make fools of his people, and they obeyed him: truly were they a people rebellious (against Allah).
When at length they provoked Us, We exacted retribution from them, and We drowned them all.
And We made them (a people) of the Past and an Example to later ages.
**

 

[George_Waters]

Correct me if I am wrong, but did not embalmers remove all the internal organs and after treating them place them in canopic jars? How was it determined that he had a heart attack when the heart and been removed and embalmed?

 

[Valke2]

How do we know that the mummy dicovered was that of Pharoah of the Exodus??

Read the link which I provided, particularly the following excerpt:

**Merenptah’s tomb is number KV 8 located in the Valley of the Kings on the West Bank of Luxor (ancient Thebes). The king probably died around 1202 BC, but his mummy was not found within his tomb. In the 19th century, this apparently added to the speculation about him being the Pharaoh of the Exodus, since that king’s body would have probably been washed away in the Red Sea. However, that theory was confounded when, in 1898, his mummy was discovered among 18 others in the mummy cache discovered in the tomb of Amenhotep II (KV 35). **

In think it would be best that we leave the identification of the mummy to the experts.

If these scientists say that this is indeed the body of the said Pharoah, then is there a reason why we should dispute their conclusion?

Yes, they are saying it is the body. No, they are not saying the pharoah in question died by drowning. IN fact, I’d like to see the quote by Bucile that says this.

 

[George_Waters]

As to the cause of death of the Pharaoh of the Exodus as stated in the Qur’an, it is best that the Qur’an itself explain:

017.101-103
To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!”
So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.

and also:

043.051-56
And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying: "O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, (witness) these streams flowing underneath my (palace)? What! see ye not then?
"Am I not better than this (Moses), who is a contemptible wretch and can scarcely express himself clearly?
“Then why are not gold bracelets bestowed on him, or (why) come (not) with him angels accompanying him in procession?”
Thus did he make fools of his people, and they obeyed him: truly were they a people rebellious (against Allah).
When at length they provoked Us, We exacted retribution from them, and We drowned them all.
And We made them (a people) of the Past and an Example to later ages.

But the forensic evidence does not support that the pharaoh you claim is the pharaoh of the exodus died by drowning.

 

[Valke2]

BTW, the good doctor in his writings, at least those that I could find, does not even allege that the cause of death was drowning. To be specific, he does not allege that, in his medical opinion, the mummy he examined died from drowing. So truthfully, his opinion adds nothing to your belief. Other than he thinks that the mummy is the pharoah of Exodus. This is a conclusion that he is free to make. It doesn’t prove anything.

To recap:

1.examination of the mummy reveals it died of old age related illness.

1. Your Dr. Bucaille offers no medical opinion that contradicts number 1.
2. If relying on scripture, there is a question as to whether Pharoah himself died at the sea.
3. There is no conclusive proof as to who was the pharoah of Exodus.
4. Pharoah’s were routinely mummified and, even if this is the right pharoah, the scripture itself implies that the body was not in the water for a great deal of time. So, in a best case scenario, the prophecy we are discussing is based on the “fortelling” that the pharoah’s body would be discovered and mummified. Pretty safe bet.

 

[Valke2]

1. The Doctor acknowledges that the mummy has deteroraited significantly between the time of its discovery and 1975. What happened to the miracle of preservation? Yes, he gives what I assume are correct scientific explanations for the deteroration, but that doesn’t change the fact that this seems to go against the prophecy.
2. He admits that the examination did not provide conclusive evidience of the cause of death.
3. He admits that the damage to bones may have been done after death.
4. then he concludes likely cause of death – drowning. But he bases this on the Scriptual narrations. Not his examination.

 

[Angelos]

As to the cause of death of the Pharaoh of the Exodus as stated in the Qur’an, it is best that the Qur’an itself explain:

017.101-103
To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!”
So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.

and also:

043.051-56
And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying: "O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, (witness) these streams flowing underneath my (palace)? What! see ye not then?
"Am I not better than this (Moses), who is a contemptible wretch and can scarcely express himself clearly?
“Then why are not gold bracelets bestowed on him, or (why) come (not) with him angels accompanying him in procession?”
Thus did he make fools of his people, and they obeyed him: truly were they a people rebellious (against Allah).
When at length they provoked Us, We exacted retribution from them, and We drowned them all.
And We made them (a people) of the Past and an Example to later ages.

As everyone can see and read, 10:92 is the only Koran verse that lacks the verb “drown” and singles out Pharaoh after replacing the word EXAMPLE in 43: 56 with the word SIGN! No interesting or significant addition to change the focus from Pharaoh’s death to his lost body or its future discovery!

So why all this racket about the so-called prophecy?

Angelos N.

 

[hamba2han]

As everyone can see and read, 10:92 is the only Koran verse that lacks the verb “drown” and singles out Pharaoh after replacing the word EXAMPLE in 43: 56 with the word SIGN! No interesting or significant addition to change the focus from Pharaoh’s death to his lost body or its future discovery!

Read the verses again carefully.

Verse 43:56 refers to the people of the Pharaoh as an example whereas verse 10:92 refers specifically to the body of the Pharaoh of the Exodus as a sign.

 

[hamba2han]

To recap:

1.examination of the mummy reveals it died of old age related illness.

1. Your Dr. Bucaille offers no medical opinion that contradicts number 1.

Dr. Bucaille and his team were given permission to examine two mummified bodies i.e. that of Merneptah and also that of his father, Rameses II.

It was very probably the body of Rameses II which revealed evidence of death due to “old age related illnesses”.

 

[Valke2]

Dr. Bucaille and his team were given permission to examine two mummified bodies i.e. that of Merneptah and also that of his father, Rameses II.

It was very probably the body of Rameses II which revealed evidence of death due to “old age related illnesses”.

Why do you say that? Every thing I can find says Merneptah died of old age related illnessess. Only Dr. Bucaille even hints at something else. And he does not state that his investigation led him to believe the pharaoh died from drowning. His conclusion of drowning is based on scripture, not medial examination. He does not state that his conclusion is based on any evidence adduced at his examination.