Islamic Prophecy

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hamba2han,

I will assume the pharaoh was killed with his troops in the sea. It really makes no diffrence to me either way. Now what facts with supporting evidence can you present that the pharaoh accepted Islam in the last moments before death and that his body was used as a sign for believers (and why do believers need a sign)? What physical evidence backs up the Quran and your interpratation? Just your belief or is there some hardcore evidence?
 
hamba2han said:
I am confused here.
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Enough said!👍
hamba2han said:
Are Christians and Jews now saying that the Psalms are NOT to be taken as part of this truth??
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There is poetic truth. When the bible talks of the four corners of the earth (Isaiah 41:9), that is a literal truth meaning everywhere, as opposed to real corners that the earth does not have.

Likewise, when Jesus called Peter ‘the rock’, no one expects that Peter was made of feldspar.

It’s simply odd that you continue to insist on a set of parameters that we must abide by in judging our own holy books.
 
George_Waters said:
hamba2han,

I will assume the pharaoh was killed with his troops in the sea. It really makes no diffrence to me either way. Now what facts with supporting evidence can you present that the pharaoh accepted Islam in the last moments before death and that his body was used as a sign for believers (and why do believers need a sign)? What physical evidence backs up the Quran and your interpratation? Just your belief or is there some hardcore evidence?
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It does not really matter that the Pharaoh submitted to Allah moments before his death because Islam teaches that those who repent in the final moments of their life will likely not have their repentance accepted by Allah.

Signs are needed to help strenghten the faith of believers and also to serve as a reminder to those who are not so strong in their faith of the supremeness of their Creator.

The story of the Exodus is NOT supported by scientific facts and so everyone who does believe it would do so on faith alone.

As for hard evidence, Merneptah’s mummified body has indeed been subjected to a proper forensic examination by Dr. Bucaille’s team and while they may not be conclusive, nevertheless the results are consistent with the manner the Pharaoh of Exodus died according to scriptures.

Like I said, science alone cannot prove any part of the Exodus story and in order to believe, we need lots of faith as well.
 
George_Waters said:
hamba2han,

I will assume the pharaoh was killed with his troops in the sea. It really makes no diffrence to me either way. Now what facts with supporting evidence can you present that the pharaoh accepted Islam in the last moments before death and that his body was used as a sign for believers (and why do believers need a sign)? What physical evidence backs up the Quran and your interpratation? Just your belief or is there some hardcore evidence?
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It is actually impossible, from a scriptual point of view, to believe that Pharoah accepted monotheism or Islam in his last moments. After all, we’ve just finished reading how God repeatedly states that He would harden Pharoah’s heart. There’s no indication that this changed during the last instant before the wave hit.
 
hamba2han said:
It does not really matter that the Pharaoh submitted to Allah moments before his death because Islam teaches that those who repent in the final moments of their life will likely not have their repentance accepted by Allah.

Signs are needed to help strenghten the faith of believers and also to serve as a reminder to those who are not so strong in their faith of the supremeness of their Creator.

The story of the Exodus is NOT supported by scientific facts and so everyone who does believe it would do so on faith alone.

As for hard evidence, Merneptah’s mummified body has indeed been subjected to a proper forensic examination by Dr. Bucaille’s team and while they may not be conclusive, nevertheless the results are consistent with the manner the Pharaoh of Exodus died according to scriptures.

Like I said, science alone cannot prove any part of the Exodus story and in order to believe, we need lots of faith as well.
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You just stated in another post that the identity of the pharaoh was not important and now you bring up Merneptah again not only to prove your point, but to keep stating that if we do not agree with what you say we cannot believe in the exodus! Sorry! That does not make any sense.

Whether the pharaoh was killed or not, and exodus does not specify, I don’t see that it in either way validates the Quran. The way I see it, you’re twisting our scripture to fit what you want it to say.You keep beating about the bush.

What conclusive proof do you have that the Quran is true? You get upset if we don’t accept that it is. We keep telling you that there is no compelling evidence for it and you have not provided any either.

Vickie
 
Valke2 said:
It is actually impossible, from a scriptual point of view, to believe that Pharoah accepted monotheism or Islam in his last moments. After all, we’ve just finished reading how God repeatedly states that He would harden Pharoah’s heart. There’s no indication that this changed during the last instant before the wave hit.
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If a lifelong atheist were to fall out of an airplane flying at 30,000 feet, he would very likely yell “Oh Godddddd” and not “Oh nothingggggg”
 
hamba2han said:
I have realised that determining the identity of the Pharaoh of Exodus is no longer the main issue here.

The real question that should be answered is:

Why don’t Christians and Jews believe what the Psalms says about the fate of the Pharaoh?

The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.

The Psalms 136:15
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
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To put it bluntly, I’d never even given it a thought! Exodus does not mention whether he was killed or not! It’s immaterial to me either way and I still don’t see that it’s any proof for the Quran!

Vickie
 
hamba2han said:
It does not really matter that the Pharaoh submitted to Allah moments before his death because Islam teaches that those who repent in the final moments of their life will likely not have their repentance accepted by Allah.

Signs are needed to help strenghten the faith of believers and also to serve as a reminder to those who are not so strong in their faith of the supremeness of their Creator.

The story of the Exodus is NOT supported by scientific facts and so everyone who does believe it would do so on faith alone.

As for hard evidence, Merneptah’s mummified body has indeed been subjected to a proper forensic examination by Dr. Bucaille’s team and while they may not be conclusive, nevertheless the results are consistent with the manner the Pharaoh of Exodus died according to scriptures.

Like I said, science alone cannot prove any part of the Exodus story and in order to believe, we need lots of faith as well.
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SHow me a citation. I’ve yet to read anything from Dr. Bucaille himself that suggests forensic evidence points to drowning. THat is not what he said. He used scriptual evidence to support drowning. That’s all.
 
Booklover said:
You just stated in another post that the identity of the pharaoh was not important and now you bring up Merneptah again not only to prove your point, but to keep stating that if we do not agree with what you say we cannot believe in the exodus! Sorry! That does not make any sense.

Whether the pharaoh was killed or not, and exodus does not specify, I don’t see that it in either way validates the Quran. The way I see it, you’re twisting our scripture to fit what you want it to say.You keep beating about the bush.

What conclusive proof do you have that the Quran is true? You get upset if we don’t accept that it is. We keep telling you that there is no compelling evidence for it and you have not provided any either.

Vickie
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You do not need to believe in the Qur’an in order to believe in the story of the Exodus.

However, what I am asking those who do have faith in the truth of their own scripture is how on earth can they say that the Pharaoh did not perish together with his host?

Their own Bible says as much in the Psalms that the Pharaoh was “overthrown” in the sea along with his host and none of them was left after the sea closed again.

The Qur’an really does not need the support from other scriptures to prove that it is indeed the Word of the Creator because it can do this entirely on it’s own.

I had intended to start a thread on this for a few weeks now but I have not come around to doing it yet.

I still hope to be able to do this fairly soon, God-willing.
 
I don’t need the quran at all for anything. It is chock full of errors.
 
hamba2han said:
You do not need to believe in the Qur’an in order to believe in the story of the Exodus.

However, what I am asking those who do have faith in the truth of their own scripture is how on earth can they say that the Pharaoh did not perish together with his host?

Their own Bible says as much in the Psalms that the Pharaoh was “overthrown” in the sea along with his host and none of them was left after the sea closed again.
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:whistle: Oh, please not this again! We’ve gone over this umpteen times and you are not going to convince anyone here.
The Qur’an really does not need the support from other scriptures to prove that it is indeed the Word of the Creator because it can do this entirely on it’s own.
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What a whopper! If Muslims could prove the truth of the Quran, they would not have to keep attacking the Bible.
I had intended to start a thread on this for a few weeks now but I have not come around to doing it yet.

I still hope to be able to do this fairly soon, God-willing.
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Go ahead and start a thread and tell us why you believe the Quran to be true.

Vickie
 
hamba2han said:
I am confused here.

My understanding is that everything in the Bible is considered to be gospel truth by the faithful.

Are Christians and Jews now saying that the Psalms are NOT to be taken as part of this truth??

If it is not the Biblical truth, then what is it doing in the Bible then?

You know, when I first joined this forum, I had expected to help inform other members of the truth that is found in the Qur’an and hoped that it would persuade them to study it even further on their own.
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I’m afraid you supposed wrong! Muslims get so frustrated when other people do not accept their beliefs! So far you have not proven anything about the Quran other than to say it’s the truth!
My experiences on these boards however have since taught me to considerably lower my expectations in this regard.

It is now my hope that Christians and Jews would start believing in what is written in their own Bible with regard to events that are also told in the Qur’an.

The story of Pharaoh of the Exodus according to the Bible has a great deal to do with the prophecy found in the Qur’an.

Could this then be the real reason why Christians and Jews are so reluctant to accept the truth of how Pharaoh died as told in the Psalms i.e. that it gives credence to Islamic prophecy?
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I doubt that Jews would ever accept an Arab as one of their prophets! And it’s precisely because of my Christian beliefs that I reject Islam with its stultifying beliefs, its fanaticism and superstitions.

If I accept that Jesus Christ is the Son of God I have to reject Muhammad. You can’t have it both ways.

Why did Muhammad have to use violence to enforce belief in Islam? He knew that he could never answer his critics, so he made sure that no one dared question him.

Why can’t you just accept that other people have a right to their beliefs?

Vickie 🙂
 
hamba2han,

As for hard evidence… first you say, “The story of the Exodus is NOT supported by scientific facts…” then you bring up Merneptah who has never been proven to be the pharaoh of Exodus and Dr. Bucaille who’s work has not been verified by anyone else in the scientific community.

So what you are saying is there is no way to confirm this Islamic prophecy what so ever and the only way to believe it is to have faith in Allah, i.e. be a Muslim.

OK fine, as you have eliminated any room for discussion on this prophecy do you want to suggest one we can discuss (if any) or will they all be simply a matter of faith and as we are Jews and Christians we are obviously all wrong and hell-bound anyway?
 
Montalban said:
Circular logic
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Due to a lack of responce about any other Islamic prophecies they must all be based on circular logic and are there for not really prophecies.

Well, this thread was fun while it lasted and has caused me to really begin studying the exodus. Thanks all for that. 👍
 
On a related note concerning the story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh, there are also to be found other verses in the Qur’an which while not quite a prophecy perhaps, nevertheless is another poignant reminder of the amazing prophetic accuracy of the Qur’an.

**“And Pharaoh said: O Haman! Build for me a tower that haply I may reach the roads, The roads of the heavens, and may look upon the god of Moses, though verily I think him a liar. Thus was the evil that he did made fairseeming unto Pharaoh, and he was debarred from the (right) way. The plot of Pharaoh ended but in ruin. **(Quran 40:36-7)

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

For well over a thousand years, the only ‘Haman’ that was mentioned outside Islamic texts was a Babylonian courtier from the story of the Tower of Babel. Academics derided his mention in the Quran, citing it as proof of Muhammad’s supposedly inaccurately borrowing from the bible; mixing up the Babylonian legend with the much earlier story of the Exodus.

Then, in 1799, one of Napoleon’s captains in Egypt discovered a dark grey-pinkish granite stone in the port city of Rosetta. He showed it to General Abdullah Jacques de Menou, a convert to Islam, who sent it off to Cairo to be studied. The Rosetta Stone, which dated back to 196 BC, was inscribed in three scripts: Hieroglyphic, Demotic and Greek. Its discovery meant that scholars the world over were finally able to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. One result was the decoding of an inscription on a Pharaonic stela from the Mosaic period in Vienna’s Hof-Museum. Curiously, the name ‘Haman’ was inscribed on the stela, his given title: ‘chief of the stone quarry workers’. Precisely the man whom a Pharaoh would ask to build a high tower!

From the above, we can see that the Qur’an has once again been proven to be perfectly correct even though it took well over a thousand years after it’s revelation before the evidence came to light.
 
hamba2han said:
From the above, we can see that the Qur’an has once again been proven to be perfectly correct even though it took well over a thousand years after it’s revelation before the evidence came to light.
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Wow! www.islamreligion.com has proven the perfect correctness of the Quran! :rolleyes:

One question, how can the Quran be perfectly correct when it talks about the sun setting in a muddy spring and stars being missles to hurl at the Jinns? Yeah… so much for being “perfectly correct”.
 
hamba2han said:
On a related note concerning the story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh, there are also to be found other verses in the Qur’an which while not quite a prophecy perhaps, nevertheless is another poignant reminder of the amazing prophetic accuracy of the Qur’an.

**“And Pharaoh said: O Haman! Build for me a tower that haply I may reach the roads, The roads of the heavens, and may look upon the god of Moses, though verily I think him a liar. Thus was the evil that he did made fairseeming unto Pharaoh, and he was debarred from the (right) way. The plot of Pharaoh ended but in ruin. **(Quran 40:36-7)

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

For well over a thousand years, the only ‘Haman’ that was mentioned outside Islamic texts was a Babylonian courtier from the story of the Tower of Babel. Academics derided his mention in the Quran, citing it as proof of Muhammad’s supposedly inaccurately borrowing from the bible; mixing up the Babylonian legend with the much earlier story of the Exodus.

Then, in 1799, one of Napoleon’s captains in Egypt discovered a dark grey-pinkish granite stone in the port city of Rosetta. He showed it to General Abdullah Jacques de Menou, a convert to Islam, who sent it off to Cairo to be studied. The Rosetta Stone, which dated back to 196 BC, was inscribed in three scripts: Hieroglyphic, Demotic and Greek. Its discovery meant that scholars the world over were finally able to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. One result was the decoding of an inscription on a Pharaonic stela from the Mosaic period in Vienna’s Hof-Museum. Curiously, the name ‘Haman’ was inscribed on the stela, his given title: ‘chief of the stone quarry workers’. Precisely the man whom a Pharaoh would ask to build a high tower!

From the above, we can see that the Qur’an has once again been proven to be perfectly correct even though it took well over a thousand years after it’s revelation before the evidence came to light.
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that’s pretty cool. But I did a little research and there’s a big question mark on whether it is actually true. This information is basically given by that same Dr. Burcille (sp?). Based on a consultation of the Dictionary of Personal Names of the New Kingdom, by Ranke… we learn that Haman’s profession was the Chief of workers in the Stone Quarry."

According to a website I found, there’s just one problem. No such book exists, according to the LIbrary of Congress.
There are some similar named online books, and Haman isn’t mentioned in any of them.

The website could be wrong. Do you have any citations that show Haman is revealed by the Rosetta Stone to be pharoah’s quarry worker?
 
hamba2han,

In all seriousness why use a website as a source that will be rejected outright due to it’s very nature? It’s like going to a Muslim forum (or sometimes even this one) and citing answeringislam.com.
 
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