Islamic teaching questions

[guanophore]

My experience joined Islamic and Christian websites with arguments, debates, discussions for 10 years. I learned a lot from them.

I am glad you found your research so enlightening. It is clear that you are not here for Catholic answers. You seem to want to convert people to Islam.

 

[Reuben_J]

Those who had existed and died before the birth of Muhammad, they all returned to Allah. “To Allah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.”

Whut?

 

[FreeMe]

FreeMe:

My experience joined Islamic and Christian websites with arguments, debates, discussions for 10 years. I learned a lot from them.

I am glad you found your research so enlightening. It is clear that you are not here for Catholic answers. You seem to want to convert people to Islam.

I am still searching for the truth of all religions, not my goal to turn anyone into either Islam or Christianity

 

[mhmtas63]

What happens to all the human beings that lived before Islam? Were they unacceptable to God?

Islam means submitting to God. In that manner religion of Moses and Jesus and eother prophets were Islam. The worships are same but there are differences in details. Fasting, Salat, Repentance, Charity etc…

But if someone claiming to submit to someone else (for example submit to a prophet or an angel) so it will not be accepted!

 

[guanophore]

I am still searching for the truth of all religions, not my goal to turn anyone into either Islam or Christianity

Your posts have made it clear that you are not seeking anything here like that, FreeMe.

Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

You find ways to discount everything that is said to you, which means you do not have an open heart to faith at all.

 

[mhmtas63]

You find ways to discount everything that is said to you, which means you do not have an open heart to faith at all.

And what about you? Do you have an open heart? Last prophet preached pure faith!

 

[guanophore]

And what about you? Do you have an open heart? Last prophet preached pure faith!

I am not going to a Muslim site, pretending to be interested in learning Islam, when I am really not, no.

 

[FreeMe]

FreeMe:

I am still searching for the truth of all religions, not my goal to turn anyone into either Islam or Christianity

Your posts have made it clear that you are not seeking anything here like that, FreeMe.

Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

You find ways to discount everything that is said to you, which means you do not have an open heart to faith at all.

God doesn’t exist. I have nothing to lose if I do not believe it

 

[guanophore]

God doesn’t exist. I have nothing to lose if I do not believe it

If this is your belief, why are you here on this discussion Board?

You clearly are not interested in 'Catholic Answers", which is fine. Are you interested in getting others to lose their faith also, but throwing out questions to which you really don’t want answers?

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

So you say there is something God cannot know?

No, I am suggesting that; those things that exist in creation both visible and invisible return to dust or are close to disappearing. Simply stated, all things created within space and time does not coexist with God in eternity

What do you mean by “dust”? Dou you mean form of energy? I am a Physicist and not understand that. Could you expound some?

Man and creation remain in a fallen state. All things created will die or return to dust, from which they were created or cease to exist. Thanks be to God, behold all things are made new in Jesus Christ resurrection into eternal life, this is my hope and God’s promise in the resurrection of the dead into new eternal life.

The atoms or subatomic particles are material and matter cannot be dissolved and vanished. They could be transformed into form of energy as Einstein formulated(E=mc^2).

I thought Einstein’s Photoelectric effect supported the existence of atoms? and his theories of special relativity claimed; there is no such thing as absolute concepts of time and size, where reality is different for each observer; whereby his general relativity enables all observers to be equal if they are moving at different speeds. I thought it was Rutherford and Bohr who delved on how atoms behaved in the physical and chemical worlds?
The laws of creation follow God’s command who created all things visible and invisible. My disagreement with you on this particular subject is that those things which obey the divine creation laws of order do not exist with God who is eternal. The divine creation laws which creation follows such as your example of the movement of atoms do not exist with God eternal. God’s Presence and or Essence is eternal thereby, God is not subject to His Own creation or Own Creation law and order. Thus these things do not coexist with God’s divine Essence and Glory, for these things you speak of; give glory and honor to God.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

I say there is a flaw by your definition. Begetting eternally! Why not existing eternally. That would be very easy.

That is not my definition; I proved to you that has been a Christian faith for over 2000 years since Jesus resurrection and it is the definition expressed in the Nicene Creed confirmed by all early Church Fathers, Church councils and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is a heresy to believe that the Son and the Father co-exist eternally, by your definition, which introduces a multiplicity of deities which the Christian would never believe or accept.

But if Son is God so he would be able to exist by himself. Why did he need to be begotten?

Again, your carnal understanding of God begetting the Son is heretical and is never a Christian belief and understanding. This is where you and the Quran are mistaken about the Christian faith in the eternal begetting.

1. The Quran declares that God never begets a Son. I agree, what the Quran declares here is heretical.
2. The Church declares that the Father eternally begets the Son. Never God begets a Son.
3. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit is One God eternal divine Essence.
   The Father is the principle of eternal divine revelation. The Father is God eternal Presence. Because the Father eternal begets the Son, declares that God lives and that the Father (God’s eternal Presence) eternally proceeds divine revelation through His Word who is Son.
4. The Son who is (God’s Presence) God’s Word proceeding divine revelation into space and time or creation. When scripture confirms that God created all things with His Word and gave life to the living with His Breath who is God the Holy Spirit.
5. The Son is God’s Presence and Jesus did make His Presence known in the incarnate Word of God.
6. The blessed Trinity are three distinct persons in divine Presence, One God in divine Essence.
7. The Trinity is never three different deities. Each Presence of God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit are distinct in Presence and divine revelation proceeding. The Father (eternal God’s Presence) is the principle of divine revelation who eternally begets the Son who proceeds (God’s Presence) divine revelation into space and time, the Holy Spirit (Gods Presence) proceeds divine revelation from the Father ( who eternal begets, speaks, sends) and the Son (who is the Word of God) proceeds divine revelation or creates and the Holy Spirit who is God, Who gives life to the living in space and time.
   What I stated above does not attempt to define the Trinity.

There are never “three gods, or three distinct divine persons as eternally,” Your quote above here, is heretical and is never a Christian belief or profession of faith.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

First of all where in Gospel God say “I begot Son eternally”? Where does tale of “begetting” emerge?

The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, is revealed from Genesis creation story, the prophets and the New Testament.

The following is the translation from the Original Greek.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Only God can beget God. When God begets God, God begets God eternally. For the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father (Jesus incarnate) is eternally begotten made present in space and time.

The Begetting is divinely revealed by the first century Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Qur’an is divine revelation. God created(revealed) divine revelation into Arabic words. Qur’an as meaning is eternal in eternal knowledge of God. We could know when it was created(revealed).

You can’t prove the Quran is divine revelation from your Islamic religion. Because, Your Quran never has God proceeding divine revelation into space and time. If you can’t believe that God the Father cannot eternally beget God the Son, or God the Father cannot proceed eternal divine revelation into space and time through His Word =Son.

By your rejection of God cannot eternally (beget God the Son) proceed divine revelation into space and time. Then the Quran cannot be divine revelation because the God of the Quran cannot eternally proceed divine revelation (or eternally beget God the Son or Word of God) into space and time, because the God of the Quran cannot speak a Word into space and time, or the God of the Quran cannot ever give divine revelation because the God of the Quran never proceeds divine revelation eternally or in space and time.
Please don’t tell me that the God of the Quran never has the power to come down to us?, or how does the God of the Quran reveal his presence in space and time?

 

[mhmtas63]

. My disagreement with you on this particular subject is that those things which obey the divine creation laws of order do not exist with God who is eternal. The divine creation laws which creation follows such as your example of the movement of atoms do not exist with God eternal. God’s Presence and or Essence is eternal thereby, God is not subject to His Own creation or Own Creation law and order. Thus these things do not coexist with God’s divine Essence and Glory, for these things you speak of; give glory and honor to God.

The cognitional existence of God knowledge is eternal. That existence is not physical as we think. Knowing is one of attribute of God and it is eternal. God did not learn something later. God knows everyting eternally that means God knows everything without time and space. When God’s power create somthing so existence in eternal knowledge become manifest and come to physical existence.

You are right that particles which obey order of God do not exist with God eternally. And I did not say those particles have eternal existence. I said God as eternal knowledge know every action of those particles. Knowing of God is not material to have a physical existence. Knowing is one attribute of God and it is eternal or is an eternal action.

 

[mhmtas63]

The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, is revealed from Genesis creation story, the prophets and the New Testament.

The following is the translation from the Original Greek.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Only God can beget God. When God begets God, God begets God eternally. For the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father (Jesus incarnate) is eternally begotten made present in space and time.

The Begetting is divinely revealed by the first century Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

mhmtas63:

1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1

Those words are from John but not from Jesus. So these comments could not be regard as pure revelation.

Secondly let’s try to understand what John means by “begotten Son”. You think that beggeting must be eternal because God’s action in essence is eternal. But you ignore that God also begot me and you and every humanbeing and every creature eternally. I means God selected us from absence to come into existence eternally. Can you say God could not know eternally that God would cretae me and you? As knowledge God knows without time and space that God would create us or beget Son. I think John use word “begetting” because Jesus were born without a father. And Jesus were used to call God as Father. So Jesus as servant of God call God as Father.

Thirdly God do not beget another god. That thought conflict with Deity.

 

[mhmtas63]

You can’t prove the Quran is divine revelation from your Islamic religion. Because, Your Quran never has God proceeding divine revelation into space and time. If you can’t believe that God the Father cannot eternally beget God the Son, or God the Father cannot proceed eternal divine revelation into space and time through His Word =Son.

By your rejection of God cannot eternally (beget God the Son) proceed divine revelation into space and time. Then the Quran cannot be divine revelation because the God of the Quran cannot eternally proceed divine revelation (or eternally beget God the Son or Word of God) into space and time, because the God of the Quran cannot speak a Word into space and time, or the God of the Quran cannot ever give divine revelation because the God of the Quran never proceeds divine revelation eternally or in space and time.
Please don’t tell me that the God of the Quran never has the power to come down to us?, or how does the God of the Quran reveal his presence in space and time?

Qur’an is revelation and is in time and space!

God can beget a Son(create a human without a father) eternally but that do not make Son eternal or God! Here begetting is an order or knowledge or decision of God. So for God begetting is eternal but for Son begetting is not because Son come into being in time and space. Before God created Jesus there was no Jesus as physically but just a cognitive existence in eterna knowledge of God.

 

[mhmtas63]

Again, your carnal understanding of God begetting the Son is heretical and is never a Christian belief and understanding. This is where you and the Quran are mistaken about the Christian faith in the eternal begetting.

I did not say any thing about carnal begetting! Begetting could be one action of God in eternal wisdom. As I said God know everything as eternal wisdom. God begot Muhammad eternally to be a prophet. Beggetting as action for God is eternal but for Muhammad being begotten is material bceause that action is happened in time and space. Before God’s creating there was no Muhammad. But God knows Muhammad eternally before the world were created.

There is one God!

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

You are right that particles which obey order of God do not exist with God eternally. And I did not say those particles have eternal existence. I said God as eternal knowledge know every action of those particles. Knowing of God is not material to have a physical existence. Knowing is one attribute of God and it is eternal or is an eternal action.

Congratulations your beginning to understand spiritual realities described in spiritual terms. Your words I placed in bold, agrees with God eternally begetting a Son, because you have God “knowing”, “an eternal action” is God proceeding divine revelation, when God begets God the Son to make known divine revelation in space and time.

Yet the Quran does not teach it comes from God by divine revelation. It only makes the claim.

peace be with you

 

[Niblo]

In a previous post I pointed out that the Church teaches two internal divine processions within the Trinity.

You replied: ‘I don’t know about your two processions. What you relate to here is not speaking of two distinct orders but of ONE eternal procession, in short I believe your confusing theology with faith………’

Anyone who teaches that there is only ‘ONE eternal procession’ has skated into heresy. Here’s why:

According to the Catholic Church there are several grades of theological certainty; the highest of which (identified as ‘De fide’ – ‘Of the Faith’): ‘Appertains to the immediately revealed truths (and are) based on the authority of God Revealing; and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that (such a) truth is contained in Revelation, one’s certainty is then based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church.’ (Ludwig Ott - ‘Fundamental of Catholic Dogma’; Page 9).

The First Vatican Council declared: ‘Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in Her Ordinary and Universal Teaching Power (Magisterium), to be believed as divinely revealed.’ (Vatican Council I, Dogmatic Constitution on the Faith - 1870 - Denzinger 1792).

Anyone who denies a doctrine graded ‘De fide’ may be deemed a heretic, and as such may be excommunicated from the Church. The gravity of sin incurred by their denial is said to be ‘mortal’.

Hold this in mind while reading what Aquinas - arguably the Church’s greatest theologian - has to say:

In answer to the question ‘Whether Any Other Procession Exists in God Besides That of the Word?’ he writes:

‘There are two processions in God; the procession of the Word, and another…The procession of the Word is by way of an intelligible operation…… besides the procession of the Word in God, there exists in Him another procession called the procession of love.’ (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 27; Article 3).

When Aquinas speaks of the ‘procession of love’ he is, of course, is referring to the procession of the Holy Spirit.

I now quote from Ludwig Ott’s ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: Chapter 3 - ‘The Triple Personality of God’ – pages 61 and 62:

Concerning ‘The Internal Divine Processions in General’:

‘In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.’ This dogma is graded ‘De fide’.

Concerning ‘The Subject of Internal Divine Processions’:

‘The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).’ This dogma is also graded ‘De fide’. Note the plural: ‘processions’

 

[Niblo]

Concerning the ‘Procession of the Son from the Father by Way of Generation’, Ott writes:

‘The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.’ Another dogma is also graded ‘De fide’.

Concerning the ‘Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son by way of Spiration’:

‘The Teaching of the Church the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.’ Yet another dogma graded ‘De fide’.

The inescapable conclusion to be drawn from all this is that (according to the Church) there are indeed two processions within the Trinity.

You ask: ‘Can (I) prove that the Quran is teaching the Truth of an eternal begetting.’

This is a nonsense question, since the Qur’an denies - absolutely - any form ‘begetting’ on the part of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla); eternal, carnal, or otherwise (how often does this need to be repeated?).

I think it’s time to call a halt to this particular conversation; and simply to agree to differ. We have provided enough information for folk to decide for themselves where the truth lies.

Discuss ‘prophecies’, if you wish. I suggest you start with the author of ‘Matthew’, since this person cites more ‘prophecies’ (including one not found in the Tanakh at all!) than any other of the ‘Evangelists’.

Peace be with you.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Lol… I have been called many things Niblo, but I have never been accused of heresy.
Please allow me to clarify your confusion about our first discussion about the Father eternally begets the Son. You questioned my comment on the difference between a carnal begetting and an eternal begetting. I proved my sources stem not only from the Nicene Creed and the CCC. The Father eternally begets the Son has always been a Christian profession of faith or belief.
From our unfinished discussion, you began to move the goal post and introduce two processions by you introducing (the Holy Spirit) subject of Trinity. When we were discussing begetting, which introduces the subject of divine eternal Essence of God which does not proceed…

Thus I replied; "I don’t know about your two procession. What you relate to here is not speaking of two distinct orders but of ONE eternal procession, in short I believe your confusing theology with faith.

You appeared to be forcing “two distinct orders” of divine procession into the eternal begetting. When I referenced the CCC 246 which relates to the Trinity as proceeding through ONE Spiration of Love (see post 322).

cont;