Islamic teaching questions

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I will try and be brief here to clear up your confusion of theological undertakings with what is professed in faith.

Here is your comment and source, which by the way totally agrees with all that I have commented on here.
"I now quote from Ludwig Ott’s ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: Chapter 3 - ‘The Triple Personality of God’ – pages 61 and 62:

‘The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).’ This dogma is also graded ‘De fide’. Note the plural: ‘processions’
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Let me confirm for you here what you have confused and misunderstand.

It is the Divine Persons which are subject of the internal Divine processions. It is never the Divine Nature (Essence) that is "subject of the internal Divine procession’s plural.

I confirm for you. I profess and believe that the The Father sends the Son (Word) which is ONE divine procession and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son which is another procession.

The Nature of the Father who eternally begets the Nature Son in divine Essence does not proceed.

What proceeds in the Godhead of the blessed Trinity is never God’s Essence, Nature, Divinity,

The theological expression of the multiple processions deals with the Presence of God revealed in the Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit proceeding ONE divine revelation.

Here is a mystical expression for you, which relates to the internal Divine processions.To our humanity that is grounded in space and time, cannot comprehend or judge the mystery of God who proceeds divine revelation eternally into space and time. What we humans perceive as God’s presence (internal multiple) proceeding from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit derives from the revelation made known by each distinct Presence of God at diverse times revealed in space and time from each Person of the Trinity divinely reveals God’s Presence, ONE GOD in ONE Divine Essence.

In summary; To our humanity the internal divine procession of Divine Persons (Never Divine Nature) in Trinity proceeds the Presence of ONE GOD never two or more. Where we have the Word whom the Father sends and the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

I assure you Niblo, In all that I have commented on here is supported by the early Church Fathers and your late Catholic Sources.

Peace be with you
 
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Niblo said:
The inescapable conclusion to be drawn from all this is that (according to the Church) there are indeed two processions within the Trinity.
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What you mistakenly imply does not exist in your incorrect view of "two processions within the Trinity.

The first subject you appear to be purposely misleading from; Deals with the “Internal DIVINE procession”. You mislead to believe that there are two distinct processions within the Trinity, as if the Internal Divine Essence of God is divided or confused by proceeding multiple different times, you are wrong in your “inescapable conclusion” about the “INTERNAL DIVINE procession of Divine Persons”. Here is another clue for you about the Internal Divine procession of Divine Person’s plural. What which is Divine is eternal, that which is eternal does not repeat what is eternal. The Father is eternal, The Son is eternal and the Holy Spirit is eternal. Each Presence of God reveals a distinct procession. The Father sends the Son and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Faith in ONE HOLY GOD who proceeds eternal divine revelation into space and time can help you here, Jesus is the alpha and omega of faith here.
Niblo said:
You ask: ‘Can (I) prove that the Quran is teaching the Truth of an eternal begetting.’

This is a nonsense question, since the Qur’an denies - absolutely - any form ‘begetting’ on the part of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla); eternal, carnal, or otherwise (how often does this need to be repeated?).
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I think you should express your Quranic concern with your fellow Muslim poster’s here like mhmtas63. mhmtas63 seems to think that God beget Muhammad the Quran’s Prophet. Do we believe mhmtas 63 or you?

I agree with you totally here. The Quran does not teach or clarify anything it rejects in the begetting or divine revelation proceeding from God’s eternal Presence into space and time revealed in God’s Presence in the Son.
 
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OriginalGabrielof12 said:
mhmtas63 seems to think that God beget Muhammad the Quran’s Prophet.
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What do you understand by begetting? I think John did not use that word as you suppose that God take another counterpart in Deity. God’s wisdom is eternal and as eternally God decide to create Jesus without a father. Let’s term that decision or will of God as begetting. If God begot Jesus eternally but that do not make Jesus divine. Because Jesus were created later through a soul and body. As I pointed before there is flaw in begetting by your definition. If God begot Jesus so that make God to come first. If you say there is no beginning and and end in eternity? Yes. That is right. But if there was not God so who would beget Jesus eternally? I mean if Jesus is God so He would not need another God to come into being.

By begetting what I understand is choicing and bring into being or create. By that meaning God choiced Muhammad eternally as prophet.
 
mhmtas63 said:
What do you understand by begetting?
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Please allow me to respond to your earlier post, which relates to your question here.
In the Gospel of John; John the Baptist whom all believers of the Abrahamic faith believe that John the Baptist was a prophet of God.

It was John the Baptist who proclaimed the begotten of Jesus; John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Here is the begotten God incarnate Presence in time and space divinely reveals; Here is what believe in the eternal begotten.
John 16:27 For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have come to believe that I came from God.
28 I came from the Father and have come into the world…
29 His disciples said, “Now you are talking plainly, and not in any figure of speech.
30 Now we realize that you know everything and that you do not need to have anyone question you. Because of this we believe that you came from God.”*

John 10:30* The Father and I are one.”
31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”
33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”t
36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated* and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

John 14;8 Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father,* and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me,
13 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
I have to yield to you here, and return later to your interesting post.
Peace be with you
 
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Jesus was a human and had a human soul. Holy Spirit is an angel and in Bible it is said Holy Spirit took form of a dove. Well… I do not know what to say… Claiming a human and dove to be god! I think there is no much thing to discuss… I hope God forgive our sins. Amîn!
 
JanSobieskiIII said:
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mhmtas63:
Someone was crucified who looked like Jesus
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😂😂😂😂

No. Just no. That’s pretty hilarious though.
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Muhammed was so off the topic with the notion and the description of the person of the Jewish Messiah that he, in his good heart (no sarcasm intended here), clearly wanted to protect the dignity and integrity of the supposedly-slain prophet before him by a cover-up story to make it all right in accordance with his own distorted Judeo-Christian understanding.
 
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mhmtas63 said:
Jesus was a human and had a human soul. Holy Spirit is an angel and in Bible it is said Holy Spirit took form of a dove. Well… I do not know what to say… Claiming a human and dove to be god! I think there is no much thing to discuss… I hope God forgive our sins. Amîn!
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And your proof?
 
OriginalGabrielof12 said:
John 14;8 Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father,* and that will be enough for us.”
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Prove to me that God the Father exists?
OriginalGabrielof12 said:
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

Peace be with you
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Already 2,000 years passed no one claimed they had seen the Father through Jesus.
 
mhmtas63 - The Jews, much like Muslims, cannot seem to comprehend the indivisibility of Jesus nature, as BOTH God AND man - thereby lies the problem. It is impossible to separate Jesus’ humanity and divinity, it is also in the nature of language to have issues with clarifying such a reality, since our human {only] minds require faith in order to resolve issues the Divinity/God has no problem comprehending. “Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe”.
 
You still seem to persist in separation of Jesus from His divinity.

Let me take things from another direction - ‘you’ Muslims claim Muhammad as being the ultimate model and ‘image’/example for ALL true Islamists to follow - yes?

Muhammad, by Islamic teachings, was a sinner, it is written that he declared himself to be so.

According to Islamic teachings, Muhammad was a slaver, and he personally slaughtered prisoners, took their wives and young daughters, money and goods as booty, to be used as he and his ‘followers’ saw fit.

Muhammad, again according to generally acknowledged Islamic teachings, helped himself to more ‘wives’ than the 4 that he/Allah, allowed his followers to have.

Muhammad took a liking to a relative’s wife and ensured that the relative ‘divorce’, and that he/Muhammad take her as his ‘wife’.

There is much in the Hadiths and al-Tabari, that appear to be about booty, slaves, and carnal indulgence.

Even his ‘child bride’, Aisha seemed to be aware that what Muhammad wished for, he ‘conveniently’ was granted [according to him], by Allah. I believe her words were something like, “I feel that your lord hastens to do your bidding/will”.

It is recorded/narrated by Aisha, that Muhammad hit her [at least] once, causing her pain.

Muhammad is recorded in several places as having indulged and approved of lying and deceit, as a tactic, and that Allah also approved of such behaviour.

Muhammad is said to have been ‘fooled/duped’ by the devil - ‘the Satanic verses’.

Muhammad had a normal conception by his father Abdullah, and his father’s second wife.

Muhammad NEVER CLAIMED TO BE DIVINE.
In the case of Jesus, none of these claims and qualities are so/valid.

It seems totally irrational that any follower of Muhammad’s model for humanity and permitted behaviour, can find any common cause with the Biblical Messiah, or the Christ of the New Testament.

Muhammad appears as very founded in worldly indulgence - Jesus not so, He is focussed on the spiritual - and temperance in worldly matters, and with particular issues total avoidance.

There is so so much more that throws up any comparison between Muhammad and Jesus, as being totally divergent.

.
 
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Reuben - I am referring to Jews who hold to ‘Jewishness’, whether Messianic {the warrior from Heaven, come to clear out from the Holy Land all foreign overlords], and indeed those ‘non-Messianic’ religious Jews. I am aware that there are ‘national’ Jews, who hold to Christianity or are indeed Christians - but to claim that ‘millions do’, is perhaps pushing things a little.
 
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Why does some Muslim women get angry when I curiously look at their face in the public place just because of the veil and dress is so strange and different?

I understand God likes, but not require, both men and women having the veils on the head when praying. I knew Hebrews having veils long ago before Muslim and Catholic nuns had veils too. When did this modesty of propriety start in Arabian regions?

Because the veils have appeared everywhere in the world like traditional propriety that made me think this might be start after the massive fallen angels were tempted by earth women without the veils to cover their hair. Does any Hadith have evidence about that?

When you all find the first authentic Scripts then let me know.

Peace in with you.
 
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MountCarmel said:
You still seem to persist in separation of Jesus from His divinity.

Let me take things from another direction - ‘you’ Muslims claim Muhammad as being the ultimate model and ‘image’/example for ALL true Islamists to follow - yes?

Muhammad, by Islamic teachings, was a sinner, it is written that he declared himself to be so.

…

There is much in the Hadiths and al-Tabari, that appear to be about booty, slaves, and carnal indulgence.

Even his ‘child bride’, Aisha seemed to be aware that what Muhammad wished for, he ‘conveniently’ was granted [according to him], by Allah. I believe her words were something like, “I feel that your lord hastens to do your bidding/will”.

…

Muhammad appears as very founded in worldly indulgence - Jesus not so, He is focussed on the spiritual - and temperance in worldly matters, and with particular issues total avoidance.

There is so so much more that throws up any comparison between Muhammad and Jesus, as being totally divergent.
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You confirmed humanity of Muhammaad. But you misinterpret the cases. And by those insulting you cannot refute Muhammad. Muhammad is the most moraly high human on the world.

Having many wife was custom of that community. There were prophets who had hundred wifes. God suppport marriage and reject adultery. Islam did not make numbers wifes from 1 to 4 but Islam reduce from countless to 4. There were no limit before Islam. When that order were revealed there were more than wifes of Muhammad. Wife of prophet cannot marry other men so prophet did not divorce any wife. Prophet Muhammad were married with an older woman untill about 55 year old. His marriages were not for lust but there were many other reasons. That issue should be explain detailed.

Relative marriage! That was to remove a false custom. It was very difficult for prophet such a situation.

Ofcourse there are answers of all your insulting. But by insulting Muhammad you cannot make Jesus to be God!

Muhammad was the best model for humanbeing both in humanity(because we are human and are biological alive) and morality. By His high morality Muhammad ascendet beyond of Heaven in where even non angel can get into with humanly body through Mirajj miracle. Muhammad was a human and had human attributes and behaved in that manner. If you are in doubt about Him but think Him in mirajj. For a compare Jesus merely were ascended to Heavens but Muhammad were ascended more more beyond limits.

Muhammad is the most high prophet. Jesus was one of great prophet. And Muslims also accept Jesus and all other prophets.

Just to help you understanding creatureliness of Jesus and Holy Spirit. In Bible both OT and NT it said Father sent His Holy Spirit or Father give Son what Son possess or Father support Son with Holy Spirit. I mean Son and Holy Spirit are creatures who were sent for some intents. And Father is always out of time and space because there is one God who Jesus call “Father”.

For Muslims the case is very clear. But it seems someones confused very badly!
 
mhmtas63 said:
For a compare Jesus merely were ascended to Heavens but Muhammad were ascended more more beyond limits.

Muhammad is the most high prophet. Jesus was one of great prophet. And Muslims also accept Jesus and all other prophets.
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That’s absolutely ridiculous. In no way was Muhammad superior in morality to Jesus Christ. The self-declared primary of Muhammad is one of the many reasons I see Islam as a massive lie.
 
Be just about Aisha, she was matured girl, daughter of Abu Khar who was best counselor of Mohammad, and she inherited the first authentic quran. It is true scripts not what Muslim/Islam has presently. Later she also commanded 10000 troops of Muslim in battles.
MountCarmel said:
According to Islamic teachings, Muhammad was a slaver, and he personally slaughtered prisoners, took their wives and young daughters, money and goods as booty, to be used as he and his ‘followers’ saw fit.

Muhammad, again according to generally acknowledged Islamic teachings, helped himself to more ‘wives’ than the 4 that he/Allah, allowed his followers to have.

Muhammad took a liking to a relative’s wife and ensured that the relative ‘divorce’, and that he/Muhammad take her as his ‘wife’.
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Muhammad did this because might be she did not have veils to cover her face to tempt him or Muhammad took the veil off her face then he also found no words of God forbid having many wives or age.

Muhammad was tempted to desire enjoyment of sex life with his flesh spirit (or worser by devils) more than loving God with all heart and soul. So he had no excellency to qualify as the prophet. to my point of view. Prophets had a wife but after finding God they lived with God’s Spirit.

Muhammad approved the murders of several Jews military commanders, married beautiful widow prisoner Safiyya and robbed all land, assets of Jewish settlers after Jewish surrendering in the battle of Khabar. So, he did not qualify the goodness of mercy, faithful obedience and charity or godliness like. He could not be regarded as prophet later in his life at least.

For that reason, God might be cut his life shorter and died 2 years after this battle. This is clear evidence Muhammad may be just a preacher and a bad one eventually in his life.

God bless and Peace in with you MountCarmel.
 
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And I assume you’ll prove that to me by refuting heretical Christian theology with the Qur’an, huh?
 
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