Islamic version of the Last supper?

[TomaszA]

Surah 5 (The Table Spread) ayat 111-115

1. Behold! the disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Said Jesus: “Fear Allah, if ye have faith.”
2. “And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. they said, ‘We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims’”.
3. They said: “We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.”
4. Said Jesus the son of Mary: “O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”
5. Allah said: “I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”

Tafsir (commentary) of Ibn Kathir
(`Isa, son of Maryam, said: "O Allah, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us – for the first and the last of us – a festival…’’) As-Suddi commented that the Ayah means, "We will take that day on which the table was sent down as a day of celebration, that we and those who come after us would consider sacred.’’ Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that it means, "A day of prayer.’’
Taken from: tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14930

Although I can’t find Pikthal’s translation of the meaning of the Quran with introductions online, I recall him saying it’s a possible reference to the Last Supper. What do you folks think?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Mahometan versions of anything are untrustworthy.

I confess there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Mahometan versions of anything are untrustworthy.

Mahometan --what is it ?

 

[TomaszA]

Salaam/peace
Mahometan --what is it ?

Muhammaden, as in Muhammadi, someone who observes the teachings of Muhammad.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Muhammaden, as in Muhammadi, someone who observes the teachings of Muhammad.

why u think a Christian wrote
Mahometan ? Is it that hard to write a name properly ?

 

[TomaszA]

Salaam/peacewhy u think a Christian wrote
Mahometan ? Is it that hard to write a name properly ?

“Mohamet” is the old way of writing “Muhammad”.

 

[Saintlucy]

To be quite honest, I can’t understand this nor any of the qu’ran. To me Islam is a parody of Judeo-Christianity and not a very good one at that.

 

[TomaszA]

To be quite honest, I can’t understand this nor any of the qu’ran. To me Islam is a parody of Judeo-Christianity and not a very good one at that.

These stories that don’t confirm what was before the Qur’an only serve to damage Muhammad’s claim.

 

[cathopologist]

These stories that don’t confirm what was before the Qur’an only serve to damage Muhammad’s claim.

It does. Muslims of course, will say, “We had it first.” Just as how they claim to be ‘first’ in everything monotheistic.

 

[R_not]

It seems they are the ones who have corrupted and rewrote the Bible - and very poorly at that. But, they say the Jews and/or the Christians did it so we are condemned to hades because of that. Well, when one muslim PROVES that the Bible is corrupted WITHOUT using the koran and hadiths - which are only mohammeds words and deeds then that is something that can be discussed.

Until then these surahs from the koran are just an illiterate pagan’s attempt at inserting something from the Christian’s New Testament in order to make us think that islam has some tie to Judaism and Christianity. It does not.

 

[Sister_Amy]

It does. Muslims of course, will say, “We had it first.” Just as how they claim to be ‘first’ in everything monotheistic.

Who came first, Noah or Paul? Noah or Peter? Noah or James? Noah or Jesus?

Just thoughts.

 

[Sister_Amy]

These stories that don’t confirm what was before the Qur’an only serve to damage Muhammad’s claim.

Ehh… it’s kind of interesting what you say actually. If “Muhammad’s claim” was that he was only confirming what came before him, then why would he change things?

Or, if he were merely copying what some people wrote before him (as some have alleged), then why are there differences?

In fact, Muslims believe that the Qur’an confirms the validity of what came before it, and also serves as the final and comprehensive message to mankind, and the only one which has been and will be protected.

So when the Qur’an echoes what you have read before, consider it a confirmation. But when you read something in the Qur’an which tells you something you can’t read in another book (like the Bible,) then it’s something that is missing from it, maybe something that’s been changed, or maybe something that only applies now.

It is the differences in the stories that make them worth comparing–not the similarities.

And I have heard that this passage is talking about the Last Supper but I don’t know many Muslims who really know anything about the “Last Supper” at all. That makes it something of an empty claim. It doesn’t really matter to me how it lines up with the Bible (or how it doesn’t.) Qur’an is enough for me.

 

[Angelos]

Ehh… it’s kind of interesting what you say actually. If “Muhammad’s claim” was that he was only confirming what came before him, then why would he change things?

You cannot be serious while posing this question!

Mohammad claimed to confirm what came before him because he needed the support of the Bible and of Jews/Christians when he presented himself as the final messenger. However, Muslims today confirm some parts of the Bible on condition that those narratives be repeated in their Koran. Thus, they actually confirm not the Bible, but what the Koran adopts from the Bible and adapts to Mohammad’s innovated teachings (heresies).

Or, if he were merely copying what some people wrote before him (as some have alleged), then why are there differences?

In fact, Muslims believe that the Qur’an confirms the validity of what came before it, and also serves as the final and comprehensive message to mankind, and the only one which has been and will be protected.

The differences stem from Mohammad’s scribes’ deliberate perversion/distortion of the Bible and from their mistaken presumptions about the tenets and narratives of other religions. For instance, the Koran plagiarises the narratives of Mary and Jesus’ infancy from the apocryphal Gospels (through slight textual modifications, of course!), mistaking them for canonical Christian scripture. The same can be said about the accounts taken from the Jewish fables about Abraham and Solomon.

The argument that only the Koran will be preserved from textual corruption is a major Islamic hoax that is not supported by the verses of the Koran. Strikingly, the Koran asks Muslims to consider all of the revelations EQUAL:

Surah 3:84
Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

So when the Qur’an echoes what you have read before, consider it a confirmation. But when you read something in the Qur’an which tells you something you can’t read in another book (like the Bible,) then it’s something that is missing from it, maybe something that’s been changed, or maybe something that only applies now.

It is the differences in the stories that make them worth comparing–not the similarities.

Thanks for proving my point.

Since we do not believe that the Koran is a revelation from Allah, we never use it as a checklist for the validity of Biblical teachings. The Koran is of a later date and an innovation, this is why the teachings of the Bible cannot be expected to conform to its teachings. The process of confirmation works the other way round: Any new doctrine that contradicts the Bible is false and not confirmed from above. The Koran mostly fails to conform to the Bible. Thus, it is not a celestial revelation.

And I have heard that this passage is talking about the Last Supper but I don’t know many Muslims who really know anything about the “Last Supper” at all. That makes it something of an empty claim. It doesn’t really matter to me how it lines up with the Bible (or how it doesn’t.) Qur’an is enough for me.

Since the Koran claims that it has come to confirm the former revelations and if the former revelations are not in their original form today as supposed by Muslims, the Koran has no good reason for its alleged revelation.

Muslims do not know lots of things about Christianity and the New Testament thanks to Mohammad’s inept and ignorant scribes. What determined the narratives of the Koran was not Muslims’ knowledge of other religions, but the vague and incomplete information the authors of the Koran heard and took to writing.

 

[TomaszA]

Ehh… it’s kind of interesting what you say actually. If “Muhammad’s claim” was that he was only confirming what came before him, then why would he change things?

Or, if he were merely copying what some people wrote before him (as some have alleged), then why are there differences?

I guess it depends on his source. It has always interested me how Muhammad accepted the Virgin Birth but rejected the Crucifixion, you’d think the former would be rejected. However, if Muhammad was relying on a gnostic source then he was being faithful to what he heard while unknowingly accepting something not true. In case you don’t know gnostics were an early group of people who mixed Christianity with ancient pagan beliefs. They were dualists in that they held a radical separation between body and soul, and regarded all matter (including the human body) to be evil. Thus, they believed Jesus did not have a human body, and so when He was crucified, it only appeared to be a crucifixion. Likewise, since the Old Testament says God created all matter they viewed the Old Testament and New testament to be referring to different gods!

In fact, Muslims believe that the Qur’an confirms the validity of what came before it, and also serves as the final and comprehensive message to mankind, and the only one which has been and will be protected.

This is nothing new to us Amy, as both Jews and Christians believe their religious sources to be divinely protected. Jesus Himself promised His Church would never be destroyed, that He would always remain with her, and that the Holy Spirit will always guide her. Likewise the Old Testament prophets revealed that God would protect their revelation, consider the following as an example:
**
“And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from this time forth and forevermore.”**
Isaiah 59:21

So when the Qur’an echoes what you have read before, consider it a confirmation. But when you read something in the Qur’an which tells you something you can’t read in another book (like the Bible,) then it’s something that is missing from it, maybe something that’s been changed, or maybe something that only applies now.

Or maybe the Qur’an is in error, this too is a possibility.

And I have heard that this passage is talking about the Last Supper but I don’t know many Muslims who really know anything about the “Last Supper” at all. That makes it something of an empty claim. It doesn’t really matter to me how it lines up with the Bible (or how it doesn’t.) Qur’an is enough for me.

I guess it’s easier for me to see the importance of these things now that I’m an outsider. These types of contradictions really don’t motivate people into accepting Muhammad as a prophet.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So you prefer to believe that Muhammad was copying some other scripture that simply had a different interpretation about the life of Jesus?

You must realize that there aren’t just stories about Jesus in the Qur’an, there are stories about Joseph and Moses and Abraham.

Was Muhammad following a “gnostic version” of those as well?

 

[cathopologist]

So you prefer to believe that Muhammad was copying some other scripture that simply had a different interpretation about the life of Jesus?

You must realize that there aren’t just stories about Jesus in the Qur’an, there are stories about Joseph and Moses and Abraham.

Was Muhammad following a “gnostic version” of those as well?

Mohammad is taught to have been a practicing Sabaean before. Their cleansing rituals, qiblah and lunar calendars were quite similar to that of Islam.

Gnostics of his time were also in abundance in Arabia and its highly probable he learned about Judaism and Christianity from them. If there was concrete archeological evidence, it could prove Mohammad created a religion from their oral traditions. Unfortunately, the one evidence which a German scholar on Islam was working on, was taken away from him by the Yemeni government.

 

[cathopologist]

Who came first, Noah or Paul? Noah or Peter? Noah or James? Noah or Jesus?

Just thoughts.

Jesus is Alpha and Omega. He existed before time existed and before Noah, Paul, Peter or James existed.

 

[TomaszA]

So you prefer to believe that Muhammad was copying some other scripture that simply had a different interpretation about the life of Jesus?

You must realize that there aren’t just stories about Jesus in the Qur’an, there are stories about Joseph and Moses and Abraham.

Was Muhammad following a “gnostic version” of those as well?

I was just saying that with regards to the Crucifixion a gnostic source is likely, though it need not be direct, meaning he didn’t have to hear from a gnostic. He could have heard it through another person. I don’t really know to be honest, it’ll be interesting to see what further textual investigations of the Qur’an reveal, I just know that he was wrong about the crucifixion and apparently the last supper.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Mohammad is taught to have been a practicing Sabaean before. Their cleansing rituals, qiblah and lunar calendars were quite similar to that of Islam.

Taught by whom? LOL Who teaches Muhammad was a Sabaean? And what is a Sabaean anyway?

Gnostics of his time were also in abundance in Arabia and its highly probable he learned about Judaism and Christianity from them. If there was concrete archeological evidence, it could prove Mohammad created a religion from their oral traditions. Unfortunately, the one evidence which a German scholar on Islam was working on, was taken away from him by the Yemeni government.

Too hard for you to just believe the truth. Wrestle with it, and ask for guidance.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jesus is Alpha and Omega. He existed before time existed and before Noah, Paul, Peter or James existed.

Then why don’t the Jews worship him?