Islamic version of the Last supper?

[Sister_Amy]

I was just saying that with regards to the Crucifixion a gnostic source is likely, though it need not be direct, meaning he didn’t have to hear from a gnostic. He could have heard it through another person. I don’t really know to be honest, it’ll be interesting to see what further textual investigations of the Qur’an reveal, I just know that he was wrong about the crucifixion and apparently the last supper.

He was wrong? You could only know that unless you knew that someone else was right.

But in fact, I know Muhammad was right. And therefore, everyone else was (is) wrong.

 

[TomaszA]

He was wrong? You could only know that unless you knew that someone else was right.

But in fact, I know Muhammad was right. And therefore, everyone else was (is) wrong.

Yes, Muhammad was wrong. The crucifixion and resurrection form the center of Christianity. The execution of Christ was recorded by the first century Roman historian Tacitus, likewise the Jews never denied the execution of Christ. The only people to historically reject the physical crucifixion were the gnostics. If Muhammad was right, you’d think there would be evidence for his claim but in fact all evidence goes against him.

As for the descending table there is no likeness to it in Christian or non-Christian literature. The closest thing is in the book of Acts when St Peter sees a vision of a table spread descending from heaven with all the animals considered unclean. He was commanded by God to eat it, as a sign that the dietary laws no longer apply. Perhaps this is the source that factored into Muhammad’s version of the Last Supper.

I suppose a Muslim could say that Muhammad was right and we are all wrong, this may help a Muslim deal with such conflicting narrations but for us outsiders we have to rely on evidence and reason, and in these two cases the evidence goes against Muhammad.

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[Angelos]

So you prefer to believe that Muhammad was copying some other scripture that simply had a different interpretation about the life of Jesus?

You must realize that there aren’t just stories about Jesus in the Qur’an, there are stories about Joseph and Moses and Abraham.

Was Muhammad following a “gnostic version” of those as well?

This is a very fallacious statement. Dear Sister Amy has lately been addicted to logical fallacies.

What made Gnostics a heretical group was primarily their denial of the Crucifixion and their vain efforts to explain its historical reality with the notion of illusion/appearance.

Mohammad was free to pick up certain doctrines of certain heretical groups and attribute them to Allah.

 

[Angelos]

Then why don’t the Jews worship him?

Does the fact that atheists/agnostics do not worship Allah prove that Allah is not the true God? Does Allah cease to exist if some people say “There is no Allah”???

 

[Angelos]

Taught by whom? LOL Who teaches Muhammad was a Sabaean? And what is a Sabaean anyway?

You should read your Koran to know about that group!

 

[dolphinlove]

I think sis amy and planten are drinking the same water of late.

 

[Angelos]

I think sis amy and planten are drinking the same water of late.

That water is drawn from the well of Islam

I pray for your friend and her deceased daughter. My lord will console the mother with His truth. The daughter will repose in peace and light.

Hugs*

 

[dolphinlove]

That water is drawn from the well of Islam

I pray for your friend and her deceased daughter. My lord will console the mother with His truth. The daughter will repose in peace and light.

Hugs*

Thank you so very much my dear brother in Christ.

 

[planten]

Yes, Muhammad was wrong. The crucifixion and resurrection form the center of Christianity. The execution of Christ was recorded by the first century Roman historian Tacitus, likewise the Jews never denied the execution of Christ. The only people to historically reject the physical crucifixion were the gnostics. If Muhammad was right, you’d think there would be evidence for his claim but in fact all evidence goes against him.

**TomazsA, please understand that Jesus could not die within a short time. he was a healthy stout person. When brought down, the other two thieves were alive. So how could Jesus be dead. He had simply fainted on the cross and appeared to all as a dead man.

Even the governor Pilate doubted that Jesus had died.He was working all along to save Jesus. When one fellow Joseph of Armitheas approached Pilate to give orders for the body of Jesus to be handed over, Pilate said, " Has he died so quickly?"

Moreover, God did not want Jesus to die on the cross, a cursed death planned by his opponents. God had told Jesus during his prayer in garden that he will not die on the cross. An angel (H.S.) had come to support Jesus to tell him that his prayer was accepted. Angel did not come to tell Jesus that his prayer is not accepted. Jesus was praying to avoid the cup. he wanted his apostles to pray too. He was happy when he was assured by God.

That is why he cried out on the Cross, “Eli, Eli, Lama sabaqatani?” O my God, O my God, why have you forsaken me? That means he had a God and he was given some assurance of safety. (It is all described in the Quran).

It is a very strange matter for the church to explain. Jesus being a god, why was he praying? Do Gods pray? And more, to kill Jesus on the cross is to prove that he was a cursed person, could not be a prophet and could not be the beloved of God. Cursed person is not the beloved of God. Also according to Deut 18:20, if he is killed then he is a false prophet.

( To be Continued… later…)**

As for the descending table there is no likeness to it in Christian or non-Christian literature. The closest thing is in the book of Acts when St Peter sees a vision of a table spread descending from heaven with all the animals considered unclean. He was commanded by God to eat it, as a sign that the dietary laws no longer apply. Perhaps this is the source that factored into Muhammad’s version of the Last Supper.

** No comments.**

I suppose a Muslim could say that Muhammad was right and we are all wrong, this may help a Muslim deal with such conflicting narrations but for us outsiders we have to rely on evidence and reason, and in these two cases the evidence goes against Muhammad.

God bless,
Tomasz

**Quran is telling all about Jesus. ONly the christians do not believe anything. So they are free to believe what they like. We have strong news about Jesus.

The christians do not realise that it was impossible for any one to say that Jesus was still alive. All of them had to say that he had died. It is quite a simple matter. Nobody could say that he was still alive.**

 

[planten]

This is a very fallacious statement. Dear Sister Amy has lately been addicted to logical fallacies.

What made Gnostics a heretical group was primarily their denial of the Crucifixion and their vain efforts to explain its historical reality with the notion of illusion/appearance.

Mohammad was free to pick up certain doctrines of certain heretical groups and attribute them to Allah.

** I did not know anything about gnostics and agnostics till now. Our prophet had nothign to do with any one except Allah and the messages brought by Gabriel, the holy Spirit whom christians have made into God.
The prophet was praying most of the time. Where were the gnostics? But now I came to realise that they were very smart people. They knew most of the truth, including the one that Jesus did not die on the cross. And they knew many more facts about the church problems. I feel they were the very good ideal people.

At least news were around and circulating that Jesus had not died on the cross. That is another proof of the truth of the Quran. Thanks to the friends for telling us all that.**

 

[Angelos]

TomazsA, please understand that Jesus could not die within a short time. he was a healthy stout person. When brought down, the other two thieves were alive. So how could Jesus be dead. He had simply fainted on the cross and appeared to all as a dead man.

Who are you not to let Jesus die in a suposedly short time? Jesus was crucified at 9 in the morning and breathed His last at 3 pm! Bleeding for 6 hours is a short time for you? What about the scientific fact that the crucified people could not breathe because of their posture on the cross? What about the fact that Jesus had been scourged before His crucifixion?? You simply suppose that Jesus was a bionic man or an alien??? Sick of your stupid claims, you man of weak memory! LOL

Where do you read that the two thieves were brought down alive from the cross? You cannot rationally expect everyone to react to persecutions or crucifixion in the same way. Jesus did not sign a contract with you or anyone on which He promised not to die in a short time.

**
Even the governor Pilate doubted that Jesus had died.He was working all along to save Jesus. When one fellow Joseph of Armitheas approached Pilate to give orders for the body of Jesus to be handed over, Pilate said, " Has he died so quickly?"**

You are telling lies now! You great follower and imitator of the pagan prophet, who was the first-born of the father of lies.

Pilate never DOUBTED that Jesus had died. He was only surprised to hear that Jesus had died so quickly. This astonishment was bound to his personal expectations, not to scientific facts. If he had really doubted Jesus’ death, he would have investigated the issue for assurance. Jesus’ disciples and apostles knew for sure that He had died. Pilate was away from the scene of the cross.

**
Moreover, God did not want Jesus to die on the cross, a cursed death planned by his opponents. God had told Jesus during his prayer in garden that he will not die on the cross. An angel (H.S.) had come to support Jesus to tell him that his prayer was accepted. Angel did not come to tell Jesus that his prayer is not accepted. Jesus was praying to avoid the cup. he wanted his apostles to pray too. He was happy when he was assured by God.**

You are still repeating your lies and perverting my scripture. I am asking the moderators from here to BAN you because of your lies and filthy acts of distortion. They ban Christians who tell the truth, but let people like you slander our faith. **IF THEY DO NOT WARN or BAN YOU, I SHALL LEAVE THIS FORUM FOREVER. **

 

[Sam_777]

planten;4336839:

.

You are still repeating your lies and perverting my scripture. I am asking the moderators from here to BAN you because of your lies and filthy acts of distortion. They ban Christians who tell the truth, but let people like you slander our faith.

:console:
I agree with you Angelos.

 

[planten]

Who are you not to let Jesus die in a suposedly short time? Jesus was crucified at 9 in the morning and breathed His last at 3 pm! Bleeding for 6 hours is a short time for you? What about the scientific fact that the crucified people could not breathe because of their posture on the cross? What about the fact that Jesus had been scourged before His crucifixion?? You simply suppose that Jesus was a bionic man or an alien??? Sick of your stupid claims, you man of weak memory! LOL

angelos, you are writing whatever you like, even false things. Why are you upset. i have quoted the words of the bible NT. You are trying to give your desired meanings to the words which is not necessary. You know that Jesus prayed in the garden to avoid the cup.

Where do you read that the two thieves were brought down alive from the cross? You cannot rationally expect everyone to react to persecutions or crucifixion in the same way. Jesus did not sign a contract with you or anyone on which He promised not to die in a short time

**Now you have after all the abuse, come to a dead end. i have never had any problem from the moderators here. I only had a problem from some abusers here for which I had to say some bad things against my will about Jesus.

Every one knows that was not my belief about Jesus or Mary. But because some members were relentlessly abusing the prophet, i felt they were not doing the right thing. So I tired to face them. Inever started any conflict here. i never initiated any conflict or abuse.

I had much trouble from angelos but I kep on going. now that angelos is broken down due to not finding any suitable answers to the problems, the best he can do is to leave the matetrs to some other more capable, competent member of his community. angelos is not a Catholic. Why is he so upset?

But let the mods decide and make everythign good for all of us here. Many thanks.**

 

[Angelos]

:console:
I agree with you Angelos.

Thanks for the support. :hug1:

 

[Angelos]

**angelos, you are writing whatever you like, even false things. Why are you upset. i have quoted the words of the bible NT. You are trying to give your desired meanings to the words which is not necessary. You know that Jesus prayed in the garden to avoid the cup.
I had much trouble from angelos but I kep on going. now that angelos is broken down due to not finding any suitable answers to the problems, the best he can do is to leave the matetrs to some other more capable, competent member of his community. angelos is not a Catholic. Why is he so upset?

But let the mods decide and make everythign good for all of us here. Many thanks.**

I HOPE THE MODERATORS WILL SEE YOUR LIES AND YOUR EFFORTS TO DISTORT THE NEW TESTAMENT. THE TRUTH IS FAR FROM YOU. HERE I AM ONCE MORE REPEATING:

**IF THE MODERATORS DO NOT WARN YOU OR BAN YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR DECEITFUL ACTS AND LIES, I SHALL LEAVE THIS FORUM FOREVER.
**
NO ONE SHOULD TOLERATE LIARS THAT CURSE MY LORD AND SLANDER MY SCRIPTURE. IF THE MODERATORS DO NOTHING, I SHALL LEAVE THIS PLACE KNOWING THAT THE GOD ALMIGHTY, THE GOD OF TRUTH, WILL TAKE CARE OF YOUR LIES & UNRIGHTEOUS ACTS SOONER OR LATER. PRAISED BE HIS NAME. AMEN.

 

[Saintlucy]

I agree with you too. Jesus sweat blood (hematohidrosis) in the Garden of Gethsemane. He was scourged and mocked, buffeted and spat upon. He carried His cross to Calvary and DIED. The centurion speared him in the side and out came blood and water. He was dead!

If He wasn’t dead, why were soldiers posted outside the tomb to guard it in case his followers came and carried the BODY away?

It is obvious that Islam is based on gnostic beliefs and apocryphal writings which were rejected by the Catholic Church when the canon of scripture was put together.

 

[Angelos]

I agree with you too. Jesus sweat blood (hematohidrosis) in the Garden of Gethsemane. He was scourged and mocked, buffeted and spat upon. He carried His cross to Calvary and DIED. The centurion speared him in the side and out came blood and water. He was dead!

If He wasn’t dead, why were soldiers posted outside the tomb to guard it in case his followers came and carried the BODY away?

It is obvious that Islam is based on gnostic beliefs and apocryphal writings which were rejected by the Catholic Church when the canon of scripture was put together.

I know that Muslims are free to deny the Crucifixion and believe whatever they want about Jesus. No problem with that! However, Planten, who is a heretical Muslim, has long been abusing Jesus and distorting certain accounts in the New Testament to prove his innovated theories. I have challenged him to quote the Gospel verses that say “God the Father did not want Jesus to die on the cross and sent an angel to save Him from death” so many times now. He cannot do that since there is no such verses in the New Testament. He overtly tells lies and reads into my scripture what is NOT even implied there!

We, as honest Christians, quote the Koran verses whenever we criticise certain Islamic tenets and make a comparison between Islam and Christianity. Planten has never followed this true path in his debates. He has the right to believe that way, but does not have the right to do so by perverting the Gospels and slandering my Lord.

I hope the moderators will warn him. If they do not take action, I shall have to leave since I cannot stay in a place where slandering Christianity is tolerated.

 

[Psalter]

I know that Muslims are free to deny the Crucifixion and believe whatever they want about Jesus. No problem with that! However, Planten, who is a heretical Muslim, has long been abusing Jesus and distorting certain accounts in the New Testament to prove his innovated theories. I have challenged him to quote the Gospel verses that say “God the Father did not want Jesus to die on the cross and sent an angel to save Him from death” so many times now. He cannot do that since there is no such verses in the New Testament. He overtly tells lies and reads into my scripture what is NOT even implied there!

We, as honest Christians, quote the Koran verses whenever we criticise certain Islamic tenets and make a comparison between Islam and Christianity. Planten has never followed this true path in his debates. He has the right to believe that way, but does not have the right to do so by perverting the Gospels and slandering my Lord.

I hope the moderators will warn him. If they do not take action, I shall have to leave since I cannot stay in a place where slandering Christianity is tolerated.

Honestly Angelos, I think Planten should be allowed to stay because everyone who reads his posts will know what a silly, nonsensical religion Islam is. Reading the stupid and twisted claims of Muslims here and seeing how they don’t even know how to construct a logical argument makes me even more convinced that Islam is a false religion. I think I read a few posts ago Sister Amy saying, “I know Islam is true” or “I know Muhammad is a prophet”…she “knows” this to be true so no matter how fallacious her beliefs are proven to be, they can always fall back on this. How incredibly irrational!

Anyway, Angelos, I applaud you for always standing up to Planten; I never try because I don’t have enough patience to sift through his brightly colored, broken English posts and refute his silly statements one by one! You have incredible patience!
God bless.

 

[Psalter]

A STUDY ON THE PHYSICAL DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST:
intermirifica.org/lent/passion4.htm

I’ve seen these before; this is a medical analysis on the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus Christ…hopefully it will put to rest Planten’s ridiculous claims that Jesus could not have died on the cross after 6 hours.

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Planten,

**TomazsA, please understand that Jesus could not die within a short time. he was a healthy stout person. When brought down, the other two thieves were alive. So how could Jesus be dead. He had simply fainted on the cross and appeared to all as a dead man.
**

There are numerous problems with this. The first problem is that the Qur’an says Jesus was not crucified, period. You seem to be saying He was crucified but survived, this doesn’t square with the aya nor does it coincide with the traditional belief of a substitution (i.e. Judas getting crucified).

You speak of Jesus being unable to die so soon, I think you have to realize that He was on the cross for several hours and this was after being severely scourged and carrying the cross. Ultimately Christ’s own life was in His hands and He gave it up willingly.

If Jesus had fainted, one wonders how no one realized. No one realized when He was taken down from the cross, Joseph of Arrymathea didn’t realize when he laid Christ in the tomb, nor did Jesus realize when He came walking out of the tomb three days later! This makes the idea of fainting difficult to accept.

How do we know Jesus was dead? We know because Jesus’ disciples saw Him take His last breath. Likewise, when the guards were ordered to break the legs of the Crucified to speed up their death, they found Jesus dead already. To insure He really was dead, the centurion pierced Jesus’ side.

So with all this we are certain Jesus was dead.

Moreover, God did not want Jesus to die on the cross, a cursed death planned by his opponents. God had told Jesus during his prayer in garden that he will not die on the cross. An angel (H.S.) had come to support Jesus to tell him that his prayer was accepted. Angel did not come to tell Jesus that his prayer is not accepted. Jesus was praying to avoid the cup. he wanted his apostles to pray too. He was happy when he was assured by God.