Islam's black stone

[De_Maria]

Why do Muslims call Christians idolaters, yet they bow down to and kiss a black stone?

 

[bpbasilphx]

I give up. Why?

 

[Nicro]

Kiss a black stone? Are you talking about how we bow towards the Kaaba the first house of God that Abraham built?

 

[De_Maria]

Kiss a black stone? Are you talking about how we bow towards the Kaaba the first house of God that Abraham built?

Yes. You pretend not to understand when we say we don’t worship Mary and the Saints. You say it must be worship of Mary or the Saints when we bow and pray before their statues… Yet you bow to and kiss a black stone and pretend that isn’t worship.

So, if you aren’t worshipping the stone, what are you doing?

Yet Muhammad didn’t apply the Quran’s injunctions consistently since he was seen kissing the black stone of the Kabah:
*Narrated Salim that his father said:
I saw Allah’s Apostle arriving at Mecca; he kissed the Black Stone Corner first while doing Tawaf and did ramal in the first three rounds of the seven rounds (of Tawaf). (*Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 673)
*Narrated Az-Zubair bin ‘Arabi:
A man asked Ibn 'Umar about the touching of the Black Stone. Ibn ‘Umar said, “I saw Allah’s Apostle touching **and kissing it.” The questioner said, “But if there were a throng (much rush) round the Ka’ba and the people overpowered me, (what would I do?)” He replied angrily, “Stay in Yemen (as that man was from Yemen). I saw Allah’s Apostle touching **and kissing it.” (*Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 680)
answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Inconsistent/stone_kissing.html

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[bogoljub]

God bless !

St. John of Damaskos (749) in his critique of Islam

…They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘**How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ **Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

In CHRIST

 

[IvanKaramozov]

Isin’t that just the Shiit?

 

[Alexius]

Isin’t that just the Shiit?

I’ll assume you meant “Shi’ite” and not something else. Thanks for the laugh, though, I needed it…

No, as I far as I am aware, all Muslims who travel to Mecca are supposed to perform this veneration of the Hajar al-Aswad, or Black Stone. It is in the east corner of the Ka’aba and is approximately 5 feet off the ground and 8 inches in diameter…Each time around the Ka’aba, the pilgrim kisses the stone. It is said that Muhammad rode a camel around and touched the stone with his walking stick. He then kissed the stone. Many of his companions kissed all four corners of the Ka’aba…

I understand that Muslims are highly offended when others refer to this as idolatry much the same way as Orthodox and Catholics are when they told the same about icons and statues…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[IvanKaramozov]

I’ll assume you meant “Shi’ite” and not something else. Thanks for the laugh, though, I needed it…

No, as I far as I am aware, all Muslims who travel to Mecca are supposed to perform this veneration of the Hajar al-Aswad, or Black Stone. It is in the east corner of the Ka’aba and is approximately 5 feet off the ground and 8 inches in diameter…Each time around the Ka’aba, the pilgrim kisses the stone. It is said that Muhammad rode a camel around and touched the stone with his walking stick. He then kissed the stone. Many of his companions kissed all four corners of the Ka’aba…

I understand that Muslims are highly offended when others refer to this as idolatry much the same way as Orthodox and Catholics are when they told the same about icons and statues…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

ha, well it certianly wasen’t meant as a shot, a friend of mine who is Shia is not a big fan of Shi’ite Islam(not in a boggoted sense, just a rejection of the theology) and mentioned that they had some odd practice with a rock during prayer and thought that may well be where the poster was comming from.

 

[Alexius]

Shia = Shi’ite…They are the same grouping.

Within Shia/Shiite Islam there are many more groups who have varying beliefs, so perhaps your friend is one of these…the orthodox Shia/Shiite are the Twelvers by the way, or so popular opinion says…

 

[IvanKaramozov]

Shia = Shi’ite…They are the same grouping.

Within Shia/Shiite Islam there are many more groups who have varying beliefs, so perhaps your friend is one of these…the orthodox Shia/Shiite are the Twelvers by the way, or so popular opinion says…

Wait,

are you saying that Shia and Shi’ite Muslims hold the exact same beleifs?

 

[Alexius]

Wait,

are you saying that Shia and Shi’ite Muslims hold the exact same beleifs?

Let me back track for a second: There two major groups of Islam are the Sunni and the Shia/Shiite. OK?

The Shia can also be called the Shiites. It is simply a different name for the same group. Within the group called the Shia, or Shiite, there are many “sects.” You could compare the Shia to Protestants. Does this make sense?

 

[IvanKaramozov]

Let me back track for a second: There two major groups of Islam are the Sunni and the Shia/Shiite. OK?

right

The Shia can also be called the Shiites. It is simply a different name for the same group. Within the group called the Shia, or Shiite, there are many “sects.” You could compare the Shia to Protestants. Does this make sense?

This is where I get lost(My apoligies, my ignorance of Islam is embarising considering how many Muslim friends I have)

I was under the impression that these two were distinct as are Catholics and Protestants. I was under the impressions that there was some dispute over leadership following the death of “The Prophet”

Now part of the time you seem to be simmilairly dividing them, while at other times saying that Shia and Shi’ite are synominious, this is the origin of my confusion.

I suppose this is one more hint that I need to study up on Islam

 

[Alexius]

This is where I get lost(My apoligies, my ignorance of Islam is embarising considering how many Muslim friends I have)

I was under the impression that these two were distinct as are Catholics and Protestants. I was under the impressions that there was some dispute over leadership following the death of “The Prophet”

Now part of the time you seem to be simmilairly dividing them, while at other times saying that Shia and Shi’ite are synominious, this is the origin of my confusion.

I suppose this is one more hint that I need to study up on Islam

OK, I see now. You are confusing the groups…

Sunni and Shi’ite (also known as Shia) are the ones who dispute over the leaders. The terms “Shi’ite” and “Shia” are interchangable. They both refer to the same group. Kind of like a “Mormon” and “Latter-day Saint” are the same…

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I would clarify one thing here. The “black stone” mentioned in the title of the thread is not mentioned in Quan, because its only significance is that of a marking to start the “Twwaf” or circle. It is never worshipped by any Muslim, though it is kissed out of love as one kisses one’s children, but one does not worship them as a Muslim.

Quran.
[22:26] As to those who disbelieve and hinder men from the way of Allah and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have appointed equally for the benefit of all men, be they dwellers therein or visitors from the desert, and whoso seeks wrongfully to deviate therein from the right path - We shall cause him to taste of a grievous punishment.
[22:27] **And call to mind when We assigned to Abraham the site of the House and said, 'Associate not anything with ME and keep My House clean for those who perform the circuits, and those who stand up and those who bow and prostrate themselves in Prayer; **
[22:28] And proclaim unto men the Pilgrimage. They will come to thee on foot, and on every lean camel, coming by every distant, deep, track.
Unquote

I respect your religion.

Thanks

 

[IvanKaramozov]

OK, I see now. You are confusing the groups…

Sunni and Shi’ite (also known as Shia) are the ones who dispute over the leaders. The terms “Shi’ite” and “Shia” are interchangable. They both refer to the same group. Kind of like a “Mormon” and “Latter-day Saint” are the same…

oh

This is why I should not post when I am tired>.>

 

[Marina14]

I heard that it comes from the pre-Islamic belief in worship of the moon god and that Mohammed couldn’t get his newly converted Islamists to do away with that belief and so incorporated their current practice of veneration of the meteor into part of the Islamic ritual. This is what I’ve heard, but I’d be interested to find out what current Islamics believe regarding this. Look forward to their posts.

 

[Ahimsa]

You know that the Prophet Mohammed laid down that followers should at least once in their lifetime make a pilgrimage to the Kaaba at Mecca.

So there was a man once who with very great difficulty saved enough money to make his pilgrimage as enjoined by the Prophet. He was an ordinary labourer and he had to toil long hours to earn sufficient for the journey. At the same time that he set off, there was also a whole tribe travelling on pilgrimage to Mecca. There were men, women and children and all were led by a very pious man.

Now there is a date fixed for the pilgrims to circumambulate the Kaaba. It is an injunction of the law that the pilgrims are to be present on that particular day once in a lifetime. So the tribe is hurrying to reach the Kaaba on that day. They have no time to waste. But while they are travelling, one of the women nears the point of child-birth. It is clear that she must soon deliver the child and for that she must cease travelling and stay on the roadside. The leader of the tribe, bound by the traditions and very pious, says: “We must leave this woman and hasten to reach the Kaaba by the date. God will take care of the woman, because we are all heading towards Him. It is His duty.”

And what happens to this woman left with a new-born babe alone on the roadside? God does take care of her. Through whom? Through the man who had with the greatest difficulty earned enough for the pilgrimage. He finds the woman distressed and alone, and he stays with her and helps her. But in doing so he misses the central point of the pilgrimage, the circumambulation on the set date.

In due course, the tribe returns, headed by the pious man, and camps again were the woman and the man have stayed. The man is so relieved. The husband is now with the woman, and her relations and all that. So now the man bids them goodbye and leaves to compete at least his journey to the Kaaba even though he thinks the spiritual value has been lost. The man leaves and the tribe settles down for the night.

During the night the pious man has a dream, and in that dream he hears a voice saying: “Of all the thousands of people who have gone on the pilgrimage this time, only the pilgrimage of one is accepted by the Lord.” The pious man says: “My Lord, whose pilgrimage have you accepted? Who is the blessed one whose pilgrimage you have accepted?” And the Lord says: “The one who looked after the mother and child.”

What matters is that you long for the place of pilgrimage. Whether you are there physically or not, the important thing is to *long* to be there, to be in His presence, to keep Him [company](http://home.online.no/%7Esolibakk/tokaaba.html).

 

[Kadaveri]

For those who were discussing this earlier in the thread: the word “Shi’ite” is quite simply “Shi’a” spelt wrong, that’s all.

 

[bogoljub]

Hi

I would clarify one thing here. The “black stone” mentioned in the title of the thread is not mentioned in Quan, because its only significance is that of a marking to start the “Twwaf” or circle. It is never worshipped by any Muslim, though it is kissed out of love as one kisses one’s children, but one does not worship them as a Muslim.

Quran.
[22:26] As to those who disbelieve and hinder men from the way of Allah and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have appointed equally for the benefit of all men, be they dwellers therein or visitors from the desert, and whoso seeks wrongfully to deviate therein from the right path - We shall cause him to taste of a grievous punishment.
[22:27] **And call to mind when We assigned to Abraham the site of the House and said, 'Associate not anything with ME and keep My House clean for those who perform the circuits, and those who stand up and those who bow and prostrate themselves in Prayer; **
[22:28] And proclaim unto men the Pilgrimage. They will come to thee on foot, and on every lean camel, coming by every distant, deep, track.
Unquote

I respect your religion.

Thanks

God bless !

For me it seems like worshipp !

And even to think of a House of God - God had a house in Jerusalem - the great Temple ! So why go to mecca and kiss a black stone ?

In CHRIST

 

[rowlands]

For those who were discussing this earlier in the thread: the word “Shi’ite” is quite simply “Shi’a” spelt wrong, that’s all.

Rather than being spelt wrongly is it not more a case of the difficulty or appropriateness in transliterating the final ta marbuta, particularly since the word is actually part of the construct Shi’at Ali? As used in English language, Shi’a (more properly Shi’at Ali) would tend to be used as a noun and Shi’ite as an adjectival form derived from a contraction of the original construct.