Islam's claim about Mohammad

[chb03c]

What I find unusual in Islam is their claim that Mohammed is God’s messenger. It sounds like to me (just my opinion) if God wanted to deliver ‘absolute truth’ why would he make a prophet do it? Obviously the prophet route wasn’t going to work, just look at all the other prophets in history. If everyone was just going to “corrupt” God’s message anyway; why would God (who is perfect in everyway you look at him) keep going to human beings, who are not perfect to deliver his message? It seems to me that God would finally just say “If you want to do things right you gotta do it yourself!”

Another way at looking at this same case is: if God wanted to reveal his total self to his followers, why did he keep hiding a portion of himself behind these prophets. It seems to me (again just my opinion) that God, after years of people “corrupting” God’s message, would finally want to reveal his total self to us here on earth (because we are also flesh and bone still), so that everyone would be sure who God really was (considering he is the most perfect being and would deliver his own message/self in the most perfect way).

Peace be with all and God Bless

PS I am sorry if I offended anyone

 

[Faith101]

chb03c:

. It seems to me (again just my opinion) that God, after years of people “corrupting” God’s message, would finally want to reveal his total self to us here on earth (because we are also flesh and bone still), so that everyone would be sure who God really was (considering he is the most perfect being and would deliver his own message/self in the most perfect way).

Peace be with all and God Bless

PS I am sorry if I offended anyone

Peace chb03c

Assuming that God came to earth in flesh and was tortured for all of mankinds sin…Do you feel that everyone now is SURE of who God is? Is the bible clear in this respect? Can I know for a FACT from the bible that Jesus is God?

We also believe that God has given us a message directly from Him. That message is still with us, in its intact, uncorrupted form. This is what the Holy Quran is to a Muslim, God’s direct message to all of mankind till the end of times.

Perserved. So perserved, in fact, that if you took all the Qurans in the entire world and rested them in the ocean…it will take a very short time for the Muslims to produce a copy EXACTLY like it. 10 million muslims have the ENTIRE Quran memorized (in its original Arabic, the language in which it was revealed).

 

[Faith101]

chb03c:

What I find unusual in Islam is their claim that Mohammed is God’s messenger. It sounds like to me (just my opinion) if God wanted to deliver ‘absolute truth’ why would he make a prophet do it? Obviously the prophet route wasn’t going to work, just look at all the other prophets in history. If everyone was just going to “corrupt” God’s message anyway; why would God (who is perfect in everyway you look at him) keep going to human beings, who are not perfect to deliver his message? It seems to me that God would finally just say “If you want to do things right you gotta do it yourself!”

Peace be with all and God Bless

PS I am sorry if I offended anyone

God doesnt start on a certain path and then midway say “oops, that didnt work, lets do something else” He is greater than that, I’m sure you agree.

The prophets have always told the samee story “There is ONE God, worship Him” Do you know of places where Abraham told the people “Worship the Father and son for they are one” ?

This is God way of sending a message to us…from the people who live among us. The only people who will get to be the presence of God are those worthy of it.

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

God doesnt start on a certain path and then midway say “oops, that didnt work, lets do something else” He is greater than that, I’m sure you agree.

The prophets have always told the samee story “There is ONE God, worship Him” Do you know of places where Abraham told the people “Worship the Father and son for they are one” ?

This is God way of sending a message to us…from the people who live among us. The only people who will get to be the presence of God are those worthy of it.

Faith101,
I like what you have said, but I don’t think it’s complete. I have added my comments in bold.

God doesnt start on a certain path and then midway say “oops, that didnt work, lets do something else” He is greater than that, I’m sure you agree.

The prophets have always told the samee story “There is ONE God, worship Him…and He is coming!”. Do you know of places where Abraham told the people “Worship the Father and son for they are one” ? ***Of course not! Mankind was not ready. You don’t yank off a veil - you remove it slowly. Exposing mankind to the full glory and mystery of God all at once would be too much for our created minds to grasp. God first needed to impress that He is ONE before He could reveal that He is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Without knowing that God is ONE, you will never grasp the Trinity. ***

This is God’s way of sending a message to us…from the people who live among us, He tells us what He will do. Then, God does it. God keeps His promises. He told us time and time again through His prophets that He would come, and He did. At the end , the only people who will get to be in the presence of God are those who God has made worthy of it.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[LuigiColetta]

Faith101:

…

Faith101,

I don’t want you to agree with what I am going to write. I just honestly want you to try to understand how I, a Christian, believe in ONE GOD. Even though you and all Muslims have a difficult time believing in the Trinity, I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from!

See, as a Christian, I believe in ONE GOD. This God is outside of Time, because He created Time! We believe this One God to be actually 3 persons.

Not 3 independent gods. One God who revealed Himself, before Jesus, as a Father to His people and His Spirit spoke through His prophets. During Jesus being physically on earth, He revealed Himself as the Son. After Jesus’ resurection and ascension He revealed Himself as the Holy Spirit. I don’t claim that you will believe in this claim. I just ask you to try to understand how it is possible for One God to be revealed in 3 persons and still be One God. It is difficult to believe in our human mind and wisdom, but try…just to try doesn’t mean you need to believe, just aske almighty Allah to help you better understand your brothers and sisters.

Nothing in our humanity will easily be an example of how God is 3 persons, but such a claim would make God not almighty and creator. The closest I can come in my own personal life is that in the beginning (but this is already flawed because I am in time) I was a son to my father, then I became a father to my son. One can say that my being a son is a type of a person. My being a father is another type of a person. I am both a son and a father at the same time, but I am still Luigi Coletta. Again, I am truly ONE Luigi Coletta, son and father, I am one!
In my life there is at least one example of how 2 seperate persons are one, but this is more personal than the previous example.

In God’s almighty peace,

Your brother,

Luigi

 

[Faith101]

LuigiColetta:

Faith101,

I don’t want you to agree with what I am going to write. I just honestly want you to try to understand how I, a Christian, believe in ONE GOD. Even though you and all Muslims have a difficult time believing in the Trinity, I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from!

See, as a Christian, I believe in ONE GOD. This God is outside of Time, because He created Time! We believe this One God to be actually 3 persons.

Not 3 independent gods. One God who revealed Himself, before Jesus, as a Father to His people and His Spirit spoke through His prophets. During Jesus being physically on earth, He revealed Himself as the Son. After Jesus’ resurection and ascension He revealed Himself as the Holy Spirit. I don’t claim that you will believe in this claim. I just ask you to try to understand how it is possible for One God to be revealed in 3 persons and still be One God. It is difficult to believe in our human mind and wisdom, but try…just to try doesn’t mean you need to believe, just aske almighty Allah to help you better understand your brothers and sisters.

Nothing in our humanity will easily be an example of how God is 3 persons, but such a claim would make God not almighty and creator. The closest I can come in my own personal life is that in the beginning (but this is already flawed because I am in time) I was a son to my father, then I became a father to my son. One can say that my being a son is a type of a person. My being a father is another type of a person. I am both a son and a father at the same time, but I am still Luigi Coletta. Again, I am truly ONE Luigi Coletta, son and father, I am one!
In my life there is at least one example of how 2 seperate persons are one, but this is more personal than the previous example.

In God’s almighty peace,

Your brother,

Luigi

Peace Luigi

Thank you for that. I have spoken to many Christians who offer various analogies to the concept of the trinity, I thank you for yours. You are right, it is hard for a Muslim to grasp this concept. I kind of understand where you are coming from

In Islam, the Creator is separate from the creation…He does not become part of the creation (for then who would be the creator?)

In terms of asking God to guide us and show us the truth…Muslims say the following prayer at least 17 times a day every day.
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight wayThe way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray. (Quran chapter 1)

 

[Faith101]

RyanL:

Faith101,
I like what you have said, but I don’t think it’s complete. I have added my comments in bold.

God doesnt start on a certain path and then midway say “oops, that didnt work, lets do something else” He is greater than that, I’m sure you agree.

The prophets have always told the samee story “There is ONE God, worship Him…and He is coming!”. Do you know of places where Abraham told the people “Worship the Father and son for they are one” ? ***Of course not! Mankind was not ready. You don’t yank off a veil - you remove it slowly. Exposing mankind to the full glory and mystery of God all at once would be too much for our created minds to grasp. God first needed to impress that He is ONE before He could reveal that He is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Without knowing that God is ONE, you will never grasp the Trinity. ***

This is God’s way of sending a message to us…from the people who live among us, He tells us what He will do. Then, God does it. God keeps His promises. He told us time and time again through His prophets that He would come, and He did. At the end , the only people who will get to be in the presence of God are those who God has made worthy of it.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

Thanks Ryan

Just curious…where did Abraham and Moses say that God is one, and he is coming

 

[chb03c]

Faith101:

Peace chb03c

Assuming that God came to earth in flesh and was tortured for all of mankinds sin…Do you feel that everyone now is SURE of who God is? Is the bible clear in this respect? Can I know for a FACT from the bible that Jesus is God?

Yes, I do feel I know who God is. He became man to die on a cross as an ultimate act of Love for me and everyone else.
Yes it is clear in this respect. Would you like Bible passages? Yes you can know from a Fact Jesus is God. Again would you like Bible passages

Faith101:

We also believe that God has given us a message directly from Him. That message is still with us, in its intact, uncorrupted form. This is what the Holy Quran is to a Muslim, God’s direct message to all of mankind till the end of times.

Again my question how do you know that that message is intact. Mohammed was still human, wouldn’t he have to be divine in order to deliever God’s message “intatct and uncorrupted?” Jesus also had a message to all of mankind, would you like to know what it is?

Faith101:

Perserved. So perserved, in fact, that if you took all the Qurans in the entire world and rested them in the ocean…it will take a very short time for the Muslims to produce a copy EXACTLY like it. 10 million muslims have the ENTIRE Quran memorized (in its original Arabic, the language in which it was revealed).

So what if they can reproduce an exact copy. So what if they can memorize it. That doesn’t tell me that what Mohammed said was really the word of God. Like I said before; how do you know that Mohammed delivered the message correctly?

 

[chb03c]

Faith101:

God doesnt start on a certain path and then midway say “oops, that didnt work, lets do something else” He is greater than that, I’m sure you agree.

Your right God doesn’t say “oops, that didn’t work, lets do something else.” But according to Islamic belief’s wouldn’t he have to in order for Mohammed’s message to have a purpose? Since the Quran tells of how the Christians are not following what God wanted them to. Plus if a message like the Quran was so important for the whole world wouldn’t God kind of figure “Hey maybe I(God) need to deliver this message personally?”

Faith101:

The prophets have always told the samee story “There is ONE God, worship Him” Do you know of places where Abraham told the people “Worship the Father and son for they are one” ?

For the last time WE DON’T WORSHIP MORE THAN ONE GOD WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

Faith101:

This is God way of sending a message to us…from the people who live among us. The only people who will get to be the presence of God are those worthy of it.

True, but not completely true. Do you not believe God talks to us in prayer? Plus it seems that God would want to deliver his whole self to us, considering that we are ignorant beings, so that we get it right!

 

[Faith101]

chb03c:

Your right God doesn’t say “oops, that didn’t work, lets do something else.” But according to Islamic belief’s wouldn’t he have to in order for Mohammed’s message to have a purpose? Since the Quran tells of how the Christians are not following what God wanted them to. Plus if a message like the Quran was so important for the whole world wouldn’t God kind of figure “Hey maybe I(God) need to deliver this message personally?”

For the last time WE DON’T WORSHIP MORE THAN ONE GOD WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
QUOTE]

Hey,

Do you not believe that the father and son are one and equal? That is my impression of Christian belief, please correct me if i’m wrong…i do apologize if i made a mistake.

People will always stray…but the message is still there. God is not changing the message or the way He sends it.

Dear brother/sister in humanity…it is extremly difficult for a muslim to believe that God, my Creator and yours, would come down on this earth and actually have someone hurt him, when He can forgive our sins without all of this.

He is Just and Merciful…I feel as if sometimes it is a guilt-trip for Christians “Jesus died for YOU, he suffered for YOU, you owe him somthing” it just doesnt seem right.

One God, one message, worship him. If you mess up, ask for forgiveness, He’ll forgive you. Mess up again, ask for forgiveness again, He’ll forgive you…until you’re last breath. Now, THAT is love.

 

[chb03c]

Faith101:

Do you not believe that the father and son are one and equal?

The problem with this statement is that you are thinking that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate still. God is one period. Just like I have a Head, hands and feet; we believe that God has a Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are NOT seperate entities with the same will, But rather parts that make up God our creator. We do not think God has any kind of partners or anything of the sort. These are meerly pieces of God, just like the my head, hands and feet are pieces of myself. This is how us Christians understand who God is.

Correct me if i am wrong but I believe there is a story in the Quran about the Blind men and the Elephant. In the story it adresses how the men get a different preception of the Elephant due to there blindness. Even though all were correct in what they had thought the elephant looked like. They were not completely correct in what the elephant looked like with respect to there individual perceptions. It’s kind of like that as well. I am sorry if i misinturpurted what the point of that story was about.

Faith101:

People will always stray…but the message is still there. God is not changing the message or the way He sends it.

I never said God was changing the message. All I was trying to ask was what makes Mohammed extra speacial that will make him deliver God’s message perfectly?

Faith101:

Dear brother/sister in humanity…it is extremly difficult for a muslim to believe that God, my Creator and yours, would come down on this earth and actually have someone hurt him, when He can forgive our sins without all of this.

God has perfect humility, since he is God. That was the whole point about Jesus coming to earth to die for our sins. Yes your right God could have snaped his fingers at any moment in time to forgive our sins. However he wanted to show us his complete love for us and actually die for our sins instead (to be that sacrifical lamb in the sader/mass). Hey man I don’t know about you but if someone died for me I might want to listen to the message he had to say.

Faith101:

He is Just and Merciful…I feel as if sometimes it is a guilt-trip for Christians “Jesus died for YOU, he suffered for YOU, you owe him somthing” it just doesnt seem right.

I agree that a lot of Christians think this way. But it doesn’t mean they should. We are called to love God because we want to not because we have to, that is why God gave us free will.

Faith101:

One God, one message, worship him. If you mess up, ask for forgiveness, He’ll forgive you. Mess up again, ask for forgiveness again, He’ll forgive you…until you’re last breath. Now, THAT is love.

amen to that!!!

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

It is true that God does not say “whoops, that didn’t work, let me try again.” But, that is what the Islamic faith is entirely based on: God sent Jesus but Jesus was unsuccessful in bringing God’s message. So then God sends out Muhammad, 600 years later, to correct that…mistake, so to speak. Essentially, Jesus didn’t work, so God had to try again. However, with Christianity, God has never said that; His message is still the same 2000 years later.

 

[chb03c]

Rand Al'Thor:

It is true that God does not say “whoops, that didn’t work, let me try again.” But, that is what the Islamic faith is entirely based on: God sent Jesus but Jesus was unsuccessful in bringing God’s message. So then God sends out Muhammad, 600 years later, to correct that…mistake, so to speak. Essentially, Jesus didn’t work, so God had to try again. However, with Christianity, God has never said that; His message is still the same 2000 years later.

Agreed!!!

 

[fatuma]

God sending messengers and prophets is a mercy onto mankind. God in his wisedom is giving mankind repeated chances to redem themselves, to show us that we are not alone and that we can be saved. God created mankind for no other reason than to woship him. and when we go off the track, He gently reminds us of it.

I find this idea alot better then God creating mankind so that in the end he could died for our sins. because this is the catholic concept, that in the beinginng He knew that He would creat man, that man would have sins so great that He would have to come to earth, become human, takle our sins and then die.

wa salam

 

[StJeanneDArc]

fatuma:

God sending messengers and prophets is a mercy onto mankind. God in his wisedom is giving mankind repeated chances to redem themselves, to show us that we are not alone and that we can be saved. God created mankind for no other reason than to woship him. and when we go off the track, He gently reminds us of it.

Wow, Fatuma, this is exactly what Christians believe. Christians additionally believe that God became man to really show us that we are not alone. God’s revelation to our Jewish forerunners demonstrated His virtues of love, mercy, justice, and wisdom. Additionally, in suffering and dying on the cross, God demonstrated the human virtue of courage.

fatuma:

I find this idea alot better then God creating mankind so that in the end he could died for our sins. because this is the catholic concept, that in the beinginng He knew that He would creat man, that man would have sins so great that He would have to come to earth, become human, takle our sins and then die.

wa salam

You’re touching on the mystery on free will. In creating man free, God gave us the ability to accept or reject His grace. It is only in this way that we can truly freely love God in all His goodness. Does the Muslim religion incorporate the same concept of human free will?

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Peace chb03c

We also believe that God has given us a message directly from Him. That message is still with us, in its intact, uncorrupted form. This is what the Holy Quran is to a Muslim, God’s direct message to all of mankind till the end of times.

Perserved. So perserved, in fact, that if you took all the Qurans in the entire world and rested them in the ocean…it will take a very short time for the Muslims to produce a copy EXACTLY like it. 10 million muslims have the ENTIRE Quran memorized (in its original Arabic, the language in which it was revealed

Okay, so that’s what you believe. Now, give us the proof of why you believe this, and please don’t give the same old chestnuts about our Bible being corrupted and Jesus not being God and all that. Give us concrete proof that the Angel Gabriel really appeared to Mohammed and that he was a real prophet. Can you do that???

You see, I believe in Jesus Christ so I cannot accept Mohammed’s claim to prophethood. Jesus said "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the END. That simply means that he was saying that there would not be anyone else to come after him. He had accomplished what he came to do, He saved us, and he founded the Holy Roman Catholic Church for all mankind and told us He would always be with us, even till the end of the world and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church!

P.S. The fact that 10 million Muslims have memorized the entire Qur’an may be a great feat, but that still does not prove the validity of the Qur’an as a document from Heaven or that Mohammed was a real prophet.

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

Perserved. So perserved, in fact, that if you took all the Qurans in the entire world and rested them in the ocean…it will take a very short time for the Muslims to produce a copy EXACTLY like it. 10 million muslims have the ENTIRE Quran memorized (in its original Arabic, the language in which it was revealed).

Which Qur’an would they reproduce?
Nafi** (from Medina; d. *169*/785) **Ibn Kathir** (from Mecca; d. *119*/737) **Abu Amr al-Ala'** (from Damascus; d. *153*/770) **Ibn Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
al-Qisa’i sic] (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)
answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm
One may claim that it doesn’t matter, as the differences are merely surface - let’s see what others have said:

Lists of the differences between the two transmissions are long, … (however) The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal (vowel and diacritical points) or graphic (basic letter), between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on meaning in the immediate context of the text itself, but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought. One difference (Q. 2/184) has an effect on the meaning that might conceivably be argued to have wider ramifications. (Adrian Brockett, `The Value of the Hafs and Warsh transmissions for the Textual History of the Qur’an’, Approaches to the History of the Interpretation of the Qur’an, ed. Andrew Rippin; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1988, pp. 34 and 37, bold added)

Furthermore:

1. Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab)

Some which change the meaning of a word, for example 2:37. Six of the Seven fa-talaqqaa aadamu min rabbihi kalimaatin (Then Adam received from his Lord words) fa-talaqqaa aadama min rabbihi kalimaatun (Then words received Adam from his Lord) Some which do not change the meaning, eg., 2:282 wa laa yudarra kaatibun wa laa shahiidun (and let no harm be done to scribe or witness) wa laa yudarru kaatibun wa laa shahiidun 2. Differences in consonants 3. Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine. 4. Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another. 5. Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular. 6. Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs 7. Differences due to dialectical peculiarities

But I can’t speak Arabic, so I have no idea if these guys are correct. Perhaps a Muslim could attest?

RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

Thanks Ryan

Just curious…where did Abraham and Moses say that God is one, and he is coming

Faith101,

They said it with their lives. Rest assured, the prophesy is there (just not in the way you were thinking). If I showed you, would you believe?

RyanL

 

[TarAshly]

chb03c:

So what if they can reproduce an exact copy. So what if they can memorize it. That doesn’t tell me that what Mohammed said was really the word of God. Like I said before; how do you know that Mohammed delivered the message correctly?

i agree. mohammed was a man, therefore imperfect, falliable, a sinner. he was a weak human being like we all are, how easy it would have been for him to change what God told him to fit his own needs and his own beliefs. Thats all assuming that God did give the message a second time to yet a second prophet, which i dont believe for one red hot second.

 

[Munawar]

RyanL:

Nafi(from Medina; d. 169/785) Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737) AbuAmr al-Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770) Ibn Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
al-Qisa’i [sic] (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)

Hi Rand,

Sorry - I pop in here when I get a chance.

Regarding the above, there are not 7 Qurans as it is claimed in that article. All Qurans on Earth today are based on the original 6 Qurans as written by Zaid bin Thabit within 20 years of the Death of the Prophet. What you have above are differences in dialect. Like American English and British English. In one dialect we say Can’t. In another dialect we say cannot.

Same meaning, different spelling.

We still have the original Qurans as written by Zaid. And I can post a link to them if you wish.

Munawar