Islam's Conception of God

[Montalban]

Joseph_Alison:

As a creation of God, Jesus is like me and you. God creates in the way He wishes. We can’t force God to create humans in one way only.
Jesus was created in a special way and Allah treated him in a special way: contrary to all of us, He raised him to Himself.

I don’t deny God can do what He wishes; ignoring the Islamic argument (an appeal for incredulity) about the Trinity being impossible to God, it seems you can’t have both arguments at once with respect to Jesus. You can’t both acknowledge that He was born different, and say He’s the same as everyone else. At very least (in Islam) only two others are like Him.

Montalban:

So, given that, you’ve got your god who can’t seem to make up his mind.

Joseph_Alison:

Allah answered a prayer made by Abraham, is it found in the Noble Qur’an and there is in the Bible a promise to him from God as well.
Abraham said: “Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise." [Qur’an 002.129]

Bible:
“And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation”. [GEN 17:20]

Again, leaving aside the argument how Moslems only seem to find intact those verses of the Bible that they think agree with them, there’s nothing there in the Bible to say that Prophets would come to Ishmael’s line. You cite a verse that says 12 princes. Are they prophets? What happened to the other 11 that went to the Arabs? You only name as prophets those (after Abraham) that went to the same line of people (who became the Jews). Clearly God continued to send prophets to the one people; culminating in Jesus.

The Arabs don’t all claim descent from Ishamael (viz. Qahtan). What promise to Ishmael applies to them? What covenant was made to Ishmael? What prophecies are attributable to this prophet?

Montalban:

He makes prophet after prophet to the Jews as normal humans, then makes Jesus without a Father, then changes his mind and goes back to making a normal human, like Muhammad.

Joseph_Alison:

Suppose a moment that God was to send another Messenger to the Jews, what more convincing proofs the new messenger would bring which Jesus did not already bring?
What was left after being born from a virgin?
What was left after giving life to the dead?
What was left after healing the blind?
What was left after healing an incurable disease, the leprosy?
Despite all the above wonders they denied him and even sought to kill him.

Are you now saying that Jesus did these things? If so, this is further proof that He’s not like you or I.

The thing is, though that God didn’t want to send another messenger. And suppose He did… it still doesn’t explain why He would
a) break the covenant by sending the ‘Messiah’ to another people
and
b) send someone who is ‘less’ than Jesus; reverting to a more meagre messenger; Muhammad.

Joseph_Alison:

Jesus was the proof that Allah established on the Jews; they no more deserve the prophet hood to stay with them.
It was about time to switch the prophet hood from the Children of Israel to the Children of Ishmael.

Then your god breaks his word.

Joseph_Alison:

Thousand of years and despite a great deal of prophets and messengers who were sent to the Children of Israel, the Judaism stayed confined to the minority of the Jews, they did not spay the message of Tawhid (Oneness of God).

And God didn’t foresee that this would happen? Why make the covenant with them?

Joseph_Alison:

In less than hundred years and only one Messenger, the Children of Ishmael spread the Islamic message of monotheism to the four corners of the GLOBE.

Even ignoring that this is not a literal phrase (the four corners) in less than a hundred years Islam (spread by the sword - we’ll leave this for another argument if you like) didn’t go to the Americas or Australia, so it wasn’t the ‘four corners of the world’ even in a non-literal sense. It’s a strange ‘proof’ for Islam that it must be from god else it wouldn’t have spread so far, well there’s still more Christians than Moslems. But there’s nothing like selective use of evidence.

Montalban:

How did Jesus die? Is He different there too? Isn’t He to judge at the end of the world?

Joseph_Alison:

As I said before, Jesus’ birth was special and Allah treated him differently, He raised him to Himself. He will sent him again.

How did He die? It’s a direct question that deserves a direct answer! Given that Jesus will come again to judge it shows that in Islam you provide more confused evidence; by showing Jesus is different. More so than Adam or Eve who died.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

inJESUS:

so here comes the question : ALL prophets had normal birth but when it came to Jesus, God broke the sacred union of marital relationship …why? what is so special about him that no one ever was born from a virgin woman? In the Quran, the miraculous birth needed “another” miracle to be proven so Jesus HAD to speak in the cradle…that is, Jesus had to do a miracle in order to prove God’s miracle! when in fact Mary was married and no one will ask a married woman about the father of her child!! that’s why it was thought that Joseph is his father. So the miraculous birth is not a miracle in the general sense of it, it was the miracle of God’s incarnation, something that we Christians can only prove by faith because it is not something that can be “seen”. Likewise, the apostles new it from Mary. If Jesus indeed spoke in the cradle, why wouldn’t the apostles say it after all?

As i told you Joseph, Jesus speaking in the cradle is taken from a superstitious gospel.

inJESUS;
The virgin birth (or rather the virgin conception) of Jesus is a pillar of your faith, you have to believe in it to be called Christian, if you deny it, yo are are no longer a Christian, you are a disbeliever, a “kafir”.

Now, since the virgin conception of Jesus was NOT KNOWN to the people who were surrounding him, -including his closest disciples-, it tells me that the faith of the followers of Jesus (in his time) was either incomplete or that they were disbelievers! and these people are the earlier Christians, the ones you believe handled the faith to you!
Conclusion: Either the virgin conception is a fabrication and a myth invented later, or the Gospels’ birth narrative of Jesus is false. Pick your choice.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Angelos]

Salaam Angelos;
Four questions:

1. Do you agree that a virgin birth is a miracle?
2. Do you agree that a miracle has to be seen?
3. Do you agree that a miracle has a purpose, i.e. intends to achieve something? if so,
4. If you answered yes to question 2, and according to the Biblical account, what was the achievement made through Jesus’s virgin birth miracle?
   Many Thanks.

Note: Remember one important thing when answering question 2: A supposed prophecy is made in the OT about a certain virgin birth.

Salaam as always.
Joseph.

PS: Tomster, if you are still reading this, please forgive this poor sinner for diverting your thread.

Hi Joseph,

You are diverting my post as well as Tomster’s thread I am not discussing Jesus’ miraculous birth from the Christian perspective here. (I did that already if you remember) I am just asking a simple question why the Quran believes that Jesus was born of a virgin. The analogy between Adam & Jesus is destined to fallacy in the Quran due to the reasons I stated in my previous post.

Let me repeat my question: Why does your Scripture claim that Jesus was born of a virgin? What was the point of that miracle?

I definitely believe that Mary miraculously conceived Jesus. I also agree with you - to some extent - that miracles indicate sth significant. Thus, the unique case of Jesus’ nativity meant to indicate His divinity. However, this sign was revealed to the apostles after Jesus began His prophetic ministry, which was marked by Jesus’ baptism. Christianity never claims what you claim! The Bible does not teach that Jesus’ miraculous birth was the only sign of His divine personality.

The Quran - mistakenly - supposes that Christians believe in Jesus’ divinity and call Him the Son of God because He was born of a virgin. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches that Jesus was born of a virgin as a natural result of His divinity. In short, miraculous conception does not make Jesus the Son of God, but Jesus’ divinity makes the miraculous conception crucial.

Salaam & rahmetullah,
Angelos

 

[Angelos]

inJESUS;

Now, since the virgin conception of Jesus was NOT KNOWN to the people who were surrounding him, -including his closest disciples-, it tells me that the faith of the followers of Jesus (in his time) was either incomplete or that they were disbelievers! and these people are the earlier Christians, the ones you believe handled the faith to you!
Conclusion: Either the virgin conception is a fabrication and a myth invented later, or the Gospels’ birth narrative of Jesus is false. Pick your choice.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Hi once more bro Joseph

I am picking my choice: The Quran is real fabrication because it was impossible for Mohammed to go hundreds of years back in time and confirm Mary’s virginity! Did Mohammed witness that miracle? No! How does he claim to know that incident in every detail then? Why do you believe what he asserts to know is better than Christians of Jesus’ time?

I have got to remind you once more that Christianity does not believe in a messenger hearing sth from the invisible Allah in a cave with no company! The Gospels were written to give testimony to Jesus! The Apostles saw and believed many miracles *only after *Jesus was manifested at the age of thirty! Therefore, the miraculous conception of our Lord and Savior was made known to the apostles after they decided to follow Him. This is rather natural because otherwise - if we follow your fallacious comment - we would expect all the apostles and followers to be present at Jesus’ birth! Moreover, listen to how the New Testament defines the word “faith”:

Hebrews 11:1. Now, faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

Listen to what the Lord says to Thomas:

John 20:29. Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.

Listen to John explain the reason for writing the Gospel:

John 20:31. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

More to the point, the Quran claims that Moses did not know how God saved his life from the Pharaoh until he received God’s call on a certain mountain:

20: 10 Behold, he saw a fire: so he said to his family, “Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire.”

20: 37-39 "And indeed We conferred a favour on thee another time (before). "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message: “Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’; but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.”

Do you believe that this significant story expressing Allah’s wisdom and plans is a myth or a fabrication because no one (not even Moses Himself!!!) knew Allah was inspiring Moses’ mother and He was interfering to save Moses from death?

Salaam ve rahmetullah,
Angelos

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;
The virgin birth (or rather the virgin conception) of Jesus is a pillar of your faith, you have to believe in it to be called Christian, if you deny it, yo are are no longer a Christian, you are a disbeliever, a “kafir”.

Now, since the virgin conception of Jesus was NOT KNOWN to the people who were surrounding him, -including his closest disciples-, it tells me that the faith of the followers of Jesus (in his time) was either incomplete or that they were disbelievers! and these people are the earlier Christians, the ones you believe handled the faith to you!
Conclusion: Either the virgin conception is a fabrication and a myth invented later, or the Gospels’ birth narrative of Jesus is false. Pick your choice.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Angelos gave a very good answer from a Christian point of view. Let’s tackle it from an Islamic point of view. Did Muhammad receive the revelations in one day? no. It took him 23 years! does it mean that that the followers of Muhammad who used to do things BEFORE some revelations prohibited them are not Muslims ?

because a Muslim is someone who believes in everything Muhammad said AFTER the faith was finally established and all things revealed

 

[eleonardo]

Salaam;

Sorry Eleonardo.
Look here, there is a whealth of information which I hope will answer your question.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Thank you, Joseph.
Pax tecum.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

inJESUS:

Angelos gave a very good answer from a Christian point of view. Let’s tackle it from an Islamic point of view. Did Muhammad receive the revelations in one day? no. It took him 23 years! does it mean that that the followers of Muhammad who used to do things BEFORE some revelations prohibited them are not Muslims ?

I will tackle Angelos’ answer about the Christian point of view in due time. InCha’Allah.

As for your comment, I simply answer that the day someone proclaimed the Shahadah (testimony of Islamic faith), he was a Muslim. However the religion (deen) of Islam was being constructed gradually, giving people the time to adapt, until it was finished: "… This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion…”[Noble Qur’an 005.003].

Islam is to submit to Allah (SWT). To submit to Allah is also to obey His Messenger.
Because the testimony of faith -that everyone willing to become a Muslim must say- is to testify that there is god except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, threfore at any step during the 23 years, then everyone who entered Islam by saying the testimony of faith was a Muslim, even if the Salat, or the Zakat of the fasting etc were not ordained yet. However, before Muhammad (PBUH) passed, everything was in place.

In Christianity however, after Jesus was no more around, the tenets of the Christian faith changed. One of these tenets is the belief in his virgin conception. To my knowledge Jesus did not say you must believe in his virgin conception to be a Christian, so why was it made a **must **after his departure?

because a Muslim is someone who believes in everything Muhammad said AFTER the faith was finally established and all things revealed

Please see above.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[inJESUS]

the day someone proclaimed the Shahadah (testimony of Islamic faith), he was a Muslim. However the religion (deen) of Islam was being constructed gradually, giving people the time to adapt, until it was finished: "… This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion

 

[Rebecca_New]

If someone is in a true relationship with God, he would believe in Jesus Christ, His Son. “He who has seen Me, has seen the Father.”

 

[Montalban]

Thank you, Joseph.

It’s always worth crediting people who divert others to apologist sites!

 

[Angelos]

Hi Joseph;

Joseph wrote:

As for your comment, I simply answer that the day someone proclaimed the Shahadah (testimony of Islamic faith), he was a Muslim. However the religion (deen) of Islam was being constructed gradually, giving people the time to adapt, until it was finished: "… This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion…”[Noble Qur’an 005.003].

Angelos wrote:
So you believe that Islam was perfected by Allah, but the Quran was not since Allah continued sending His verses after the verse you quoted above?

Joseph wrote:
Islam is to submit to Allah (SWT). To submit to Allah is also to obey His Messenger.
Because the testimony of faith -that everyone willing to become a Muslim must say- is to testify that there is god except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, threfore at any step during the 23 years, then everyone who entered Islam by saying the testimony of faith was a Muslim, even if the Salat, or the Zakat of the fasting etc were not ordained yet. However, before Muhammad (PBUH) passed, everything was in place.

Angelos wrote:
You are relegating Islam to a single tenet whereas there are numerous verses in the Quran that determine the criteria for becoming Muslims. For instance, Muslims must believe in the Quran! However, it was impossible for a Muslim to believe in all the verses of the Quran since the verses were compiled into a book after Mohammed bin Abdullah’s death! Further, your scripture claims that the former prophets and believers were called Muslims even centuries before Mohammed was born! How was that possible? I believe this is a myth fabricated by the writers of the Quran, who desperately needed witnesses for the validity of the Islamic tenets. Since they were unable to find a single witness, they resorted to making up their own history with a multitude of false witnesses

Joseph wrote:
In Christianity however, after Jesus was no more around, the tenets of the Christian faith changed. One of these tenets is the belief in his virgin conception. To my knowledge Jesus did not say you must believe in his virgin conception to be a Christian, so why was it made a **must **after his departure?

Angelos wrote:

Where is your evidence to prove that Christian tenets changed? The Quran? Well, I claim that the Quran is the fruit of a number of scribes distorting the Bible to make up a new religion. Asking for evidence? The Bible!
I agree with you that Jesus does not tell (in the Gospels) His apostles or followers to believe in the virgin conception. But please remember that Issa, the Islamic prophet in the Quran, does not ask his apostles (Havariyun) or followers to believe in his miraculous birth. Why is that? Let me answer: Because the writers of the Quran walked in the footsteps of the Evangelists

I suggest you read the prologue to John’s Gospel to see what made the apostles believe in the miraculous conception.

Joseph wrote:

However, before Muhammad (PBUH) passed, everything was in place.

Angelos wrote:
The authenticity of Jesus’ Gospel was not confined to His presence among the apostles. We do not believe in *a god *that sends his message to a people through his messenger, but forgets or somehow fails to preserve his message after the messenger’s death The God we believe in is the one whose relation with the world is not dependant on his messengers’ lives, but permanent!
You seem to confuse the Issa in the Quran with our dear Lord Jesus when you say that he was no more around. Our Lord and Savior went, but also returned to His beloved ones on the third day. As God, He IS always with us:

Matthew 28:20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, IS always with us:

John 16:13. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you.

When Jesus our Lord ascended to the right hand of the Father, the Christian tenets were impossible to be changed since Jesus’ Church was in place:

Matthew 16:18. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We believe in Jesus’ holy words. Doxa to Theos Imon. Praise be to our God forever!

Salaam,

Angelos

 

[inJESUS]

Further, your scripture claims that the former prophets and believers were called Muslims even centuries before Mohammed was born! How was that possible? I believe this is a myth fabricated by the writers of the Quran, who desperately needed witnesses for the validity of the Islamic tenets. Since they were unable to find a single witness, they resorted to making up their own history with a multitude of false witnesses

Assalamu Aleikum Angelos

i always thought that former prophets were “called” Muslims because they submitted to God until i read that they even taught Islam but there message was corrupt despite the fact that God says otherwise

 

[FillTheVoid]

You guys, stop all this bickering back and forth.

It comes down to one simple question.

Is Jesus Christ a liar?

That’s really all it comes down to.

Personally I believe he told the Truth, therefore I will pick up my cross and follow him.

 

[inJESUS]

You guys, stop all this bickering back and forth.

It comes down to one simple question.

Is Jesus Christ a liar?

That’s really all it comes down to.

Personally I believe he told the Truth, therefore I will pick up my cross and follow him.

Amen but when it comes to Muslims, they think that the whole Christian history is a big conspiracy theory where people “hid” the “Gospel” God sent to Jesus and wrote “different” Bible where they put words into his mouth. So yes all the Church Fathers including the disciples of Jesus’ disciples were on conspiracy theory and Mr, Muhammad said after 600 years that Jesus put his resemblance on someone else who was crucified

Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn Abbas saying: "'When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water. He said to them: 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me! Then he said: ‘Who will from among you take my likeness and be killed in my place, so will become in my rank?’ A young youth came forwards. But Jesus said to him: ‘Sit down! Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forwards, and said: ‘I.’ Jesus said: ‘You are the one,’ and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window of his house

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Angelos;

I am picking my choice: The Qur’an is real fabrication because it was impossible for Mohammed to go hundreds of years back in time and confirm Mary’s virginity!
Did Mohammed witness that miracle? No! How does he claim to know that incident in every detail then? Why do you believe what he asserts to know is better than Christians of Jesus’ time?

You are misusing the Big Grin!
Angelos;
You picked up the bad choice.
Mohammad did not have to go hundreds of years back, the One who created Mary and Jesus told him: “This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).” [Noble Qur’an 003.044].

The Gospels were written to give testimony to Jesus! The Apostles saw and believed many miracles only after Jesus was manifested at the age of thirty!

Look at the following testimony by Mark:
“And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. [MK 14:43]
“And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely. [MK 14:44]
“And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him. [MK 14:45]
“And they laid their hands on him, and took him [MK 14:46]

According to Mark, Judas who came with the soldiers went to Jesus and “goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him” which was the token the soldiers were waiting for, and therefore they knew who was Jesus and laid hands on him and took him away.

Now look at this testimony by John:
“Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
“Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
“They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
“As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
“Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
“Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: [JN 18:3-8]
“Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, [JN 18:12]

Again, here also, Jesus and his disciples (Judas not included) were in the garden. Judas came with the soldiers, but did NOT kiss Jesus; instead it is Jesus who asked the soldiers who they were looking for! To which they answered “Jesus of Nazareth”, he said I am he, afterwards they took him away.

You wrote: “The Gospels were written to give testimony to Jesus”. So please tell me which testimony is the right one, that of Mark or that of John, or did they get it altogether wrong because it never happened that way?

Continued next page…

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Continued.

Moreover, listen to how the New Testament defines the word “faith”:
Hebrews 11:1. Now, *faith *is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not

Yes I listened; this is a beautiful definition, but is unfortunately wrong in the context of the Christian faith!

Salvation is the ultimate hope. For Muslims it is yet to happen, it is hoped for. For Christians however, it already happened, Jesus saved them with his blood.

The vision of God is the ultimate hope. For Muslims it is yet to happen, it is hoped for. For Christians however, it already happened, some saw Him.

Muslims have faith in God although they did not see him; he did not appear to them. For Christians however, faith is not the evidence of things that appear not, because their God appeared to them.

Listen to what the Lord says to Thomas:
John 20:29. Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed

Yes I listened; but I “heard” a slight problem; this account in John is contradictory to that of the other Gospels: In Mark, Matthew and Luke, all the disciples, -the eleven of them-, were together the first time Jesus appeared to them. In John however, Thomas was not with them!

LUKE:
"And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,[LK 24:33]
"Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.[LK 24:34]
"And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.[LK 24:35]
“And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.[LK 24:36]

MARK:
“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils [MK 16:9]
“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. [MK 16:14]

MATTHEW:
“Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. [MT 28:10]
“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [MT 28:16]
“And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. [MT 28:17]

JOHN:
“Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her. [JN 20:18]
“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. [JN 20:19]
“And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD [JN 20:20]
“But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was **NOT **with them when Jesus came. [JN 20:24]

If we go by the law of majority, then John got it wrong. But if we consider the synoptic problem and the supposed Markan priority, then either Mark is wrong or John is wrong. Pick your choice!

Listen to John explain the reason for writing the Gospel:
John 20:31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

I listened the first time to John but I found him contradicting his brothers, the other disciples. So I don’t know who should I listen to.

More to the point, the Qur’an claims that Moses did not know how God saved his life from the Pharaoh until he received God’s call on a certain mountain:
20: 10 Behold, he saw a fire: so he said to his family, “Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand there from, or find some guidance at the fire.”
20: 37-39 "And indeed We conferred a favor on thee another time (before). "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message: “Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’; but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.”

Do you believe that this significant story expressing Allah’s wisdom and plans is a myth or a fabrication because no one (not even Moses Himself!!!) knew Allah was inspiring Moses’ mother and He was interfering to save Moses from death?

In this case, knowing or not knowing the plan Allah (SWT) had for Moses, has nothing to do with a pillar of faith, so I don’t see your point.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[FillTheVoid]

Slight problem.

God had to die on the Cross to pay our sin debt.

Without that you cannot stand in front of a 100% holy god being only 2% holy.

Because he is Just and Righteous you cannot be in his presence. In sinful condition.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Montalban:

It’s always worth crediting people who divert others to apologist sites!

No Montalban, the link I gave is to an educational site, take a look for yourself.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[exoflare]

Yes I listened; but I “heard” a slight problem; this account in John is contradictory to that of the other Gospels: In Mark, Matthew and Luke, all the disciples, -the eleven of them-, were together the first time Jesus appeared to them. In John however, Thomas was not with them!

LUKE:
"And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,[LK 24:33]
"Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.[LK 24:34]
"And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.[LK 24:35]
“And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.[LK 24:36]

MARK:
“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils [MK 16:9]
“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. [MK 16:14]

MATTHEW:
“Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. [MT 28:10]
“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [MT 28:16]
“And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. [MT 28:17]

JOHN:
“Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her. [JN 20:18]
“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. [JN 20:19]
“And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD [JN 20:20]
“But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was **NOT **with them when Jesus came. [JN 20:24]

If we go by the law of majority, then John got it wrong. But if we consider the synoptic problem and the supposed Markan priority, then either Mark is wrong or John is wrong. Pick your choice!

I listened the first time to John but I found him contradicting his brothers, the other disciples. So I don’t know who should I listen to.

In this case, knowing or not knowing the plan Allah (SWT) had for Moses, has nothing to do with a pillar of faith, so I don’t see your point.

If you think this is a contradiction, you’re really grabbing at straws. Thanks for showing everyone Islamic reasoning at its best…

 

[FillTheVoid]

Joseph you’re an intelligent guy, at least you seem like one.

Take a good hard look at the things Jesus says in the Bible.

Could you call him a liar, or that it’s all a hoax?

It looks more like Muslims altered and distorted the Bible than the other way around.

Man I can only imagine how happy and enlightened you would become if you could take that step of faith.

It’s saddens me, it truely does.

There are so many dedicated and faithful Muslims out there, if only they could all experience the love of God.

Once you taste the truth you’ll never turn back.