Isn't 66 an incomplete number of books in the (Protestant) Bible?

[BrianH]

The LXX was in flux. Awhile back, the author of the book, Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger, quoted in an email on this forum admitted as much. We do not know what the contents of the LXX at the time of Christ were because 1) No copies exist from that time. 2) the earliest copies have different books.
I have never seen where it is proved when the DC became part of the LXX.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I said references not DIRECT quotations. C As stated,approximately 350 references made to the Old Testament by the New Testament writers, over 300 refer to the Septuagint.

Okay, but the best that can be offered in the way of references is similarity in language. That is not a reference. The apostles quoting from Greek translations of Scripture when writing in Greek has no real bearing on the issue of the deuterocanonicals. The Septuagint texts they used are still books which exist in the Hebrew canon, so of course they were going to accept translations of them. The point being, they never quoted from the deuterocanonicals.

Okay…and? So by making refences to other texts it proves the other 7 were never used?

So it was okay to make references to the other text (39) but not the 7?

It’s hard to see that they accepted the seven as Scripture being as how they never refer to them as Scripture. To say they accepted the DC books as inspired simply based on the fact that they quoted from the Septuagint is, at best, conjecture.

 

[BrianH]

I said references not DIRECT quotations. C As stated,approximately 350 references made to the Old Testament by the New Testament writers, over 300 refer to the Septuagint.

Okay…and? So by making refences to other texts it proves the other 7 were never used?

So it was okay to make references to the other text (39) but not the 7?

No one knows when the LXX contained the DC. The earliest known copies do not contain the same OT books. It was in flux. I have never read anyone who said any different.

 

[Nicea325]

If you choose to accept the deuterocanonical books as Scripture, that is entirely your choice. I read from them every now and again. They are also used in our liturgies and some of our hymns. However, I cannot accept them as canonical simple because there is a possibility that the NT “alludes” to them. And allusion is the best you can come up with. Nor can I accept them because Jesus may have quoted from the Septuagint. That would be no different from me quoting from the KJV, the NIV, or the NASB. However, He never quoted from the DC books. Nor did the apostles. They are called Scripture no where in the entire corpus of biblical writings.

And it is your choice to accept the 39 OT canon.But I cannot accept it because not you or ONE Protestant has any empirical-historical evidence confirming the 39 OT was canonized prior to Jesus birth or during his life time.

As stated,tell me what year it was canonized prior to Jesus’ birth or during his life time? Who made it official? The Pharisees? Sadduccees? The Essenes?

And Jesus never stated: These 39 books are the only ones to be accepted and to be called scripture alone.And why? Because NO WHERE does Jesus in the NT call or identify a 39 OT canon.

 

[Nicea325]

No one knows when the LXX contained the DC. The earliest known copies do not contain the same OT books. It was in flux. I have never read anyone who said any different.

And the same argument has been stated about the belief of only a 39 OT canon. Not one piece of historical evidence has confirmed that Jesus only used the 39 OT canon. There was no official canon during Jesus’ life time or prior. If it was official,I sure would like to see the historical evidence confirming its canonization?

 

[answermethis]

No, there isn’t. Yet since every book of the OT is quoted directly somewhere in the NT, that kind of establishes a precedent, no?

Sorry again what qualifies as “quoted”
I don’t feel qualified to be the authority of a biblical precedent. No rule book…who gets to be the authority???

 

[Dokimas]

No, there isn’t. Yet since every book of the OT is quoted directly somewhere in the NT, that kind of establishes a precedent, no?

If you ‘facts’ are correct, it would seem the writers of the NT letters are aurthoritative to some degree.

 

[WesleyF]

My original post was about numbers. But I am afraid this argument has gone elsewhere!

I think that just the mere fact that 66 is an incomplete number should give an indication that the Bible cannot contain 66 books if it has to be complete.

 

[answermethis]

Who has the authority to decide which of the scriptures are profitable, inspired and infallible so that we neither look to writings that are misleading or overlook writings that are the Word of God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Deuterocanonical books teachings in the new testament; for more see here; cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm

Matthew
Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20
Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s
Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22
John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11
Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26
Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19
Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12
Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7
Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32
Acts 4:24 Judith 9:12
Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32
Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6
Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10
Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19
Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40
Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21
Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1
Acts 10:2 Tobit 12:8
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25
Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc.
Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1
Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8
Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7
Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc.
Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19
Acts 12:5 Judith 4:9
Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26
Acts 12:23 Judith 16:17
Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21
Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41
Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9
Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30
Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10
Acts 14:14 Judith 14:16s
Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3
Acts 15:4 Judith 8:26
Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20
Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17
Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1
Acts 17:24 Tobit 7:17
Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9
Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18
Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6
Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10
Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7
Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17
Acts 19:28 Daniel 14:18, 41
Acts 20:26 Daniel 13:46
Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31
Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49
Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1
Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6
Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5
Acts 26:25 Judith 10:13
cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15
Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24
Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4
Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23
Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s
Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11
Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21
Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19
Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11
Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24
Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12
Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23
Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12
Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8
Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11
Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13
Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29
Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4
Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s
Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1
Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34
Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27
Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s
Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18
Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9
Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20
1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s
1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1
2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16
Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21
Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6
Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18
2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7
1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60
Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6
Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17
James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
James 5:3 Judith 16:17
James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19
1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13
2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10
1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72
Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1
Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17

 

[BrianH]

And the same argument has been stated about the belief of only a 39 OT canon. Not one piece of historical evidence has confirmed that Jesus only used the 39 OT canon. There was no official canon during Jesus’ life time or prior. If it was official,I sure would like to see the historical evidence confirming its canonization?

Yes. I believe I have read some things that point to it but not a slam dunk to be sure. It appears that the “historical argument” will probably not be conclusive at that time.
You know what has not been said though, except for a few possible references to Purgatory, which when is the last time any Christian thought the OT was complete in its portrayal of what happens after we die, I am not sure it will make much difference at all.
Dispensationalists will not care.
Liberals will not care.
I am not sure it will change much. But let the debate continue

 

[BrianH]

Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15
Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15
Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24
Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4
Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23
Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s
Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11
Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21
Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19
Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11
Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24
Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12
Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23
Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12
Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7
Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8
Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11
Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13
Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29
Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4
Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s
Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1
Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34
Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27
Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s
Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18
Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9
Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20
1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s
1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13
1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10
1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19
1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10
1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8
1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18
1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17
1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23
1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19
1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2
1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s
1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7
1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28
1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3
1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23
1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6
1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s
1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s
1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1
2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15
2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16
Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13
Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5
Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1
Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13
Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7
Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9
Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3
Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17
Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18
Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21
Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19
Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23
Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6
Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s
1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8
1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18
1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s
1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14
1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18
2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7
1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11
1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11
1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s
1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15
1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1
2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3
2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16
2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60
Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30
Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6
Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s
Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17
Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s
Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30
Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41
Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss
Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16
Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10
Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17
Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1
Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1
Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52
Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20
Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2
Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25
Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42
Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14
Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24
Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23
Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10
Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2
Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19
Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17
James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27
James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20
James 1:19 Sirach 5:11
James 1:2 Sirach 2:1
James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s
James 1:21 Sirach 3:17
James 2:13 Tobit 4:10
James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27
James 3:2 Sirach 14:1
James 3:6 Sirach 5:13
James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
James 3:10 Sirach 5:13
James 3:10 Sirach 28:12
James 3:13 Sirach 3:17
James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16
James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11
James 5:3 Judith 16:17
James 5:3 Sirach 29:10
James 5:4 Tobit 4:14
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12
James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19
1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12
1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5
1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6
1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc.
1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13
2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6
2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6
2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19
2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10
1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72
Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1
Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14
Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15]
Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1
Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14
Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8
Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7
Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14
Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15
Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12
Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29
Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22
Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9
Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc.
Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35
Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25
Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8
Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4
Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12
Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17

Oh please. We have all seen that these will be random phrases pulled out of context. Look at what happened with TU looked at the last list. All of them were either not the case or matching a few phrases here and there. Most if not all of the teachings and quotes are found in earlier OT documents.

 

[Dokimas]

Gabriel of 12,

It would be far more helpful it you’d actually post the verses so we can compare them.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The first century Jews contained both the Septuagint and Hebrew books which gave the Hebrew Translation to the Greek translation in the Septuagint.

The Jews in the school of Jamnia removed the 7 books from their unofficial canon because they lost their Hebrew counter parts and used this to discredit Jesus and the Apostles teachings as false teachers because they taught from these Greek books, to which their Hebrew counter parts were lost during their exiles and persecutions. The dead sea scrolls attest to these deuterocanonical books, when the Hebrew counterparts to the Deuterocanonical books were discovered in the Qumran caves.

St.Jerome refused to translate these 7 books using the same Jewish reason for rejecting them, because Jerome had no Hebrew counterparts to transliterate these books into this Vulgate. St. Jerome obeyed the Pope and placed them in his Vulgate.

Other Catholic Saints protested these already canonized 7 books, but each council, each Pope kept the deuterocanon books in the original canon of scripture books.

Luther later removes them, using the same reasons why the second century Jews, St.Jerome and others because they had no Hebrew counter parts.

1945 proved them all wrong, when the Hebrew counter parts to these 7 deuteron books were discovered among others.

The Catholic Church never labeled these 7 deuterocanonical books “Apocrypha” Luther did this. The Catholic Church called them Deuteron because she received these books in their deuteron= second language Greek.

 

[BrianH]

The first century Jews contained both the Septuagint and Hebrew books which gave the Hebrew Translation to the Greek translation in the Septuagint.

The Jews in the school of Jamnia removed the 7 books from their unofficial canon because they lost their Hebrew counter parts and used this to discredit Jesus and the Apostles teachings as false teachers because they taught from these Greek books, to which their Hebrew counter parts were lost during their exiles and persecutions. The dead sea scrolls attest to these deuterocanonical books, when the Hebrew counterparts to the Deuterocanonical books were discovered in the Qumran caves.

St.Jerome refused to translate these 7 books using the same Jewish reason for rejecting them, because Jerome had no Hebrew counterparts to transliterate these books into this Vulgate. St. Jerome obeyed the Pope and placed them in his Vulgate.

Other Catholic Saints protested these already canonized 7 books, but each council, each Pope kept the deuterocanon books in the original canon of scripture books.

Luther later removes them, using the same reasons why the second century Jews, St.Jerome and others because they had no Hebrew counter parts.

1945 proved them all wrong, when the Hebrew counter parts to these 7 deuteron books were discovered among others.

The Catholic Church never labeled these 7 deuterocanonical books “Apocrypha” Luther did this. The Catholic Church called them Deuteron because she received these books in their deuteron= second language Greek.

Jamnia removed the 7 books?
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
Like I said, there is no real proof either way of what the LXX looked like in the 1st century.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12,

It would be far more helpful it you’d actually post the verses so we can compare them

Surre, can you show me which scripture does not have the verse? my screen reveals them all

 

[BrianH]

My original post was about numbers. But I am afraid this argument has gone elsewhere!

I think that just the mere fact that 66 is an incomplete number should give an indication that the Bible cannot contain 66 books if it has to be complete.

Uh…how is 73 or 75 any better? Because it starts with 7? I think the whole number argument is speculative. But thats just me.

 

[BrianH]

Surre, can you show me which scripture does not have the verse? my screen reveals them all

All of them.

 

[answermethis]

The first century Jews contained both the Septuagint and Hebrew books which gave the Hebrew Translation to the Greek translation in the Septuagint.

The Jews in the school of Jamnia removed the 7 books from their unofficial canon because they lost their Hebrew counter parts and used this to discredit Jesus and the Apostles teachings as false teachers because they taught from these Greek books, to which their Hebrew counter parts were lost during their exiles and persecutions. The dead sea scrolls attest to these deuterocanonical books, when the Hebrew counterparts to the Deuterocanonical books were discovered in the Qumran caves.

St.Jerome refused to translate these 7 books using the same Jewish reason for rejecting them, because Jerome had no Hebrew counterparts to transliterate these books into this Vulgate. St. Jerome obeyed the Pope and placed them in his Vulgate.

Other Catholic Saints protested these already canonized 7 books, but each council, each Pope kept the deuterocanon books in the original canon of scripture books.

Luther later removes them, using the same reasons why the second century Jews, St.Jerome and others because they had no Hebrew counter parts.

1945 proved them all wrong, when the Hebrew counter parts to these 7 deuteron books were discovered among others.

The Catholic Church never labeled these 7 deuterocanonical books “Apocrypha” Luther did this. The Catholic Church called them Deuteron because she received these books in their deuteron= second language Greek.

I had not heard that is why St Jerome objected.
Did he write about that??