Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[mangy_dog]

I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

From the moment of our conception, we are destined to live in saecula saeculorum. A beginning without an end. We humans tend to forget or place that fact on a back burner.

God’s mercy is as wonderful as His justice is terrible. His mercy and justice are indefectable - universalism would argue or have us believe that somehow God can’t be all merciful if hell is eternal or - His justice is somehow flawed if “eventually” everyone will go to heaven and hell will be an empty parking lot.

Universalism may be gaining steam inasmuch as the forces of Antichrist are already at work in the world. It’s heresy.

Here’s another thought along the “univeralistic lines”: Jesus’ superabundant sacrifice on the cross. All events - past, present and future are as eternal now to God. So, if we are to be bambuzzled by universalism, some day the event of the cross will be erased.

Universalism is heresy.

 

[felicerose]

So I’d like to add a question to all this if I might. something that has always bothered me when Heaven and Hell are discussed. Why the giant cosmic game? Seriously. why? If God is all loving, powerful, knowing etc., why? I mean, and I don’t mean to sound blasphemous, what the heck is up with that? Is he sitting up there, pretending to play a board game until one day he decides he’s bored with it, announces the second coming, and finally things are as they should be? Can anyone honestly answer this? Is going to Hell like being the pawn on a giant chess board that gets axed by the knight for someones amusement?

Why eternal hell? Again, seriously. I’m going to burn in eternal Hell fire, forever and ever, for let’s say, using a condom while having sex with my wife, and sit next to a mass serial killer, or a Hitler, who’s killed and tortured thousands? Really, that’s pretty hard for me to believe. I’d even say it sounds like out right fantasy. Either that, or a system devised by man, in order to keep control of the general popluation, in a time when many still believed the world was flat.

Yeah, I realize what I just typed sounds harsh, and probably makes it sound as though I’m an “unbeliever”, but I’m not. I’m a very devout, God fearing man, who only gets frustrated and confused over issues such as this.

Hi Steve… I think the average man (or woman) struggles to understand the mysteries of God, which is why we need to have faith in Him.

I don’t think all this is a game to Him. I doubt He is that petty. But I don’t have any answers to offer you. All I know is that He sacrificed His Son for us. Who could love us more than that?

I don’t know whether you’ll go to Hell for using a condom when you’re with your wife. But perhaps if one knew that God wanted us to create more souls (believers) for Him… to be warriors in His name… and believed that He would provide for his faithful followers, perhaps one wouldn’t ‘block’ that from becoming truth. Again, I don’t know. I’m merely speculating.

In my readings, I have come to realise the extent to how the faithful of Christ have been ‘misled’ and ‘programmed’ to accept beliefs that used to be grounds for excommunication in the olden days. If one believes that the Word of God (scripture) is true for all time, then what was true in the olden days should still be true in modern times.

But why is it that so many things have changed? Such as acceptance of gay couples. And swearing. To most of those those who read these words… I am very sure your automatic reaction is of shock… aren’t we all open-minded? Only narrow-minded people disapprove of gays. But who says we are to show disapproval and condemnation to gays? They need our prayers… but NOT whole-hearted acceptance. And because this doesn’t fit in with the Bible, some people have gone to change the Bible. Doesn’t that sound off to you?

And why is it that we ‘accept’ these changes? The answer is because we have become like the frog that sits in a pan of water on the stove. The heat is very slowly increased and the frog’s body temperature adjusts to the increase. The poor frog doesn’t realise it is being cooked until it is too late.

I have many gay friends and relatives. I had to suffer many painful moments in the past two years when my deepening faith and knowledge made me realise that they were in unnatural relationships. I am still struggling to understand these things…which is why I understand your question.

If God loved us so much, why put us to so much pain? I think He never intended us to go through this. But we made choices, didn’t we? Beginning with Adam and Eve.

Peace.

 

[vz71]

Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

Well, they are not in hell for seperate sins.
They are in hell for the same sin. The sin of refusing God’s forgivness.
Of choosing self over God.

 

[Newbie2]

I’ll try. I am not sure how to do it. I am not that good on a computer like what buttons to press.

Hit Enter twice. The cursor will move down two rows and give you a space between paragraphs. You have some good thoughts but it’s hard for old farts like me to read.

 

[FCEGM]

I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

What do you think being in the Presence of God Who Is Infinite Love would be like without any love in your own soul?

 

[Dorothy]

Will he really? Even after the Final Judgement? Can God be truly happy? Sorry, I hope this isn’t derailing the thread.

The Lord is not suffering eternally for our sin. His intense sufferings ended when he died on the cross.

He is gloriously triumphant for all eternity.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Advocate
*
But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable. *

Then by your logic, eternity in heaven seems unreasonable for dying in a state of grace?

Your argument must be intensely agreeable, especially for wicked people and atheists, who can console themselves that, if there is a just God, after they get the punishment they deserve, they will get a pass through the pearly gates.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

Does that passage end with: “But don’t worry yourself too much, because I will withdraw my denial in due time”?

I think you are all too willing to buy into a fool’s paradise.

We must bear the blame for choosing eternal punishment, not God.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Advocate

“And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,” (Matt. 18:8)

Was Jesus lying when he said “eternal fire”?

 

[twoangels]

I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

Here is how I think about Hell. First off, we do not get into Heaven out of our own merit. Its not something that God owes us. There is simply no unrighteousness and injustice if God did not offer us Heaven. I don’t think of Hell as some other place where God tortures us. I think of Hell as us torturing ourselves. It is much more that those in Hell simply have too much pride to make the journey to Heaven. They want God on their terms and like a stubbern toddler, have a temper trantrum, cause their faces to go red, exhaust themselves nearly hyperventilate. Or its like us as adults when we go through a crisis, feel out of control and insecure and torture ourselves with worrying about the future. We create Hell for ouselves.

You might want to read CS Lewis’ “The Great Divorce.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Advocate

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

Then by your logic, eternity in heaven seems unreasonable for dying in a state of grace?

As Jane Austen said, nobody minds having what is too good for them.

Of course people also misunderstand eternity. They think of it as day after day, year after year, forever. . .as an extension of our temporal time.

But eternity isn’t like that. it is more like an eternal now. As if this instant as you read what I have typed that ‘instant’ is experienced yet somehow you can also experience thousands of other ‘instants’ at the very same time in the very same way. We can’t fully understand because we ARE ‘temporal’ creatures, what it will be like when as Scripture tells us Time itself will cease to exist. Time stops. . .eternity ‘goes on.’

So: in that ‘eternal now’ the person in heaven ‘continues’ in a state of grace, while at the same time experiencing even more ‘instants’ where he embraces further grace, praises God, etc. That’s heaven. It is not ‘deserved’ but because one has said ‘yes’ to God, one will have the great joy of being able to GO ON SAYING YES, more and more and more.

And in that ‘eternal now’ the person in HELL continues in mortal sin, while at the same time experiencing even more instants where he commits further sin, more and more despair, hatred, anger, blasphemy, etc., It is deserved because one has said NO to God, and one CONTINUES TO GO ON SAYING NO, over and over and over, more and more.

That is why eternity in hell is justified. Not because somebody ONE TIME ‘used a condom’. But because that somebody not only sinned (and not just that, KNEW it was a mortal sin, and did it anyway, and never did, never has, and never will be sorry for it). . .but that person CONTINUES SINNING MORTALLY all eternity long.

How could you POSSIBLY say that a person who not only sinned ‘in life’ but is sinning continually in eternity, is not being treated appropriately by God? What do you expect God to do to somebody who is rejecting Him and continues to reject Him? Do you expect Him to ‘blast the person out of existance?’ Do you expect Him to FORCE the person to be good? Do you really think that God is only ‘good’ if every person in the world is either obliterated if he won’t ‘be good’ or is somehow FORCED into goodness?

How about the ‘good’ people? You know, the ones who die in a state of grace but, over their lifetimes, committed sins? Were forgiven in confession etc. but still have the ‘effects’ on their soul (not to mention the effects of the sins on the people, including God, who were sinned against?) Some of those ‘good people’ may have committed more ‘little’ (or even big) sins in their lives than say a person who was (that favorite puzzle) “A good person all their lives but then ate a hot dog on Friday and died before he went to confession.”.

Funnily enough, you don’t hear complaints that a person who got into HEAVEN ‘didn’t deserve to get there’ because that person committed more sins than ANOTHER person also in heaven. Nobody here would complain if they got into heaven that 'I don’t deserve to be here because I committed more sins than Mother Teresa."

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Tantum

*Nobody here would complain if they got into heaven that 'I don’t deserve to be here because I committed more sins than Mother Teresa." *

Well said.

I would also not complain if I was the last person ever released from purgatory!!!

 

[steve_b]

The idea of hell currently has me very angry at God. I am unable to pray, because the only thought my mind can produce is "how dare you create me God, and also create an eternal hell. How dare youexpose me to such a massive risk, when life is so short, and evidence of the truth often difficult to understand, and the true odds of actually making it unknown. "

sounds very narcissistic.

How is it you don’t feel you have evidence of the truth, or that it is difficult to understand? If I’m understanding you correctly, why do you think the odds of actually making it to hell are unknown…or maybe you’re refering to heaven?

the definition of faith

Heb 11:1
faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see

• What is it you confidently hope for?
• How can you be assured of it

Hasn’t Jesus revealed the answers to us through His Church? Yes

Who made themself the victim for YOU before YOU were even born, so that YOU could have eternal bliss in heaven with HIM?

• Did God make heaven elusive? No.
• Is it a matter of chance? No.
• Does God sandbag certain individuals so that no matter what they do they are going to hell? No.
• Does EVERYONE have the freedom to choose heaven or hell? Yes.
• Are there conditions that must be met for either? Yes
• Do we know what those conditions are? Yes

s:

I’m very shocked how casually some people talk about hell, and how there might actually be people in it.

“Today I put before you life and death blessings and curses, choose life” [Dt 30]

Does that REALLY sound like a difficult choice? No. Yet people make shocking choices inspite of the known consequences, and choose curses and death… I know, seems rediculous, but obviously the choice CAN be made because God actually gives people that choice to choose either one…

 

[Brooklyn]

So I’d like to add a question to all this if I might. something that has always bothered me when Heaven and Hell are discussed. Why the giant cosmic game? Seriously. why? If God is all loving, powerful, knowing etc., why? I mean, and I don’t mean to sound blasphemous, what the heck is up with that? Is he sitting up there, pretending to play a board game until one day he decides he’s bored with it, announces the second coming, and finally things are as they should be? Can anyone honestly answer this? Is going to Hell like being the pawn on a giant chess board that gets axed by the knight for someones amusement? Why eternal hell? Again, seriously. I’m going to burn in eternal Hell fire, forever and ever, for let’s say, using a condom while having sex with my wife, and sit next to a mass serial killer, or a Hitler, who’s killed and tortured thousands? Really, that’s pretty hard for me to believe. I’d even say it sounds like out right fantasy. Either that, or a system devised by man, in order to keep control of the general popluation, in a time when many still believed the world was flat.

Yeah, I realize what I just typed sounds harsh, and probably makes it sound as though I’m an “unbeliever”, but I’m not. I’m a very devout, God fearing man, who only gets frustrated and confused over issues such as this.

I believe you are a God fearing man, but your statements lead me to believe that you don’t really understand what sin is. Do you, as a Catholic, understand and believe that our original parents, named Adam and Eve in the Bible, chose to live their lives apart from the knowledge of God, and as a result of their decision, they separated all of their progeny (you and me) from God? Our first parents damned all of us to hell because they willingly and voluntarily separated themselves from God. Because they were sinners, we have all been conceived in sin, separated from God. And that is the definition of hell - separation from God.

God, at that point, could have easily have just walked away from all of us and let us inherit our fate, and he would have been totally justified in doing so. He had given everything to our first parents, and they rejected it. He didn’t owe anything more to mankind. But because of his great love for man, he divested himself of his heavenly power, took on the form of a man, and died a bloody and horrible death on a cross, paying the price for us so that we can be with him.

We are like someone who was infected with a deadly disease such as AIDS, and through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, taking on our penalty of death, we have been completely cleansed and cured. HOWEVER, if we go back to the ways that produced the spritual AIDS we were infected with, we will again be separated from God. And yes, using a condom with your wife - perverting sex from the expression of life-giving love that was designed by God into a selfish act of pleasure, will cut you off from God as much as the acts of a serial killer will. You are doing the same thing our first parents did - you are choosing the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, telling God you know better than he does, and completely separating yourself from him.

This is hardly a chess game. The only way any of us can truly come to understand why hell is not a “disporportionate punishment” is when we start with the self knowledge that we are all hardened sinners, unworthy to be in God’s presence, and that all of our natural inclinations are opposed to the will of God. And when we bring our sinful selves to God, he will take them and give us a completely new nature in conformity with his will.

God is a completely perfect being, perfect in love and goodness and beauty and truth. It is far beyond our human understanding. Yet he says that if we will submit to him, he can bring us to his level. But that means absolutely no imperfection in us. Through his mercy, he has given us Purgatory to get rid of tiny imperfections in those who truly want to conform to him. But when you commit a mortal sin - even just one mortal sin - you have completely separated yourself from God, and he cannot allow that into his presence.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

I’m starting to see hell not as a punishment the way we define punishment here on earth. Hell is a place for people who in their earthly lives refused to love God. It not about what they did, but the underlying reason they did it. Denial of God. They are in hell not because they are “paying” for their sins, but because they could not accept God’s love.

Also, since our souls are eternal, time has a different concept in the spiritual world than it is in the physical world. Being in hell for eternity is just being that, there is failure to accept God’s love and you are forever separated from God.

 

[slywakka250]

sounds very narcissistic.

How is it you don’t feel you have evidence of the truth, or that it is difficult to understand? If I’m understanding you correctly, why do you think the odds of actually making it to hell are unknown…or maybe you’re refering to heaven?

I can’t stand the idea that my Catholic beliefs are more “true” than the beliefs of atheists, people in other religions, etc. Add to that the concept of these Catholic beliefs and teachings being the basis for avoiding hell, and now I’m really upset! I feel trapped in my Catholic faith. I want so badly for it not to be true, so that no one will have to suffer in hell.

and yes the odds. God knew from the beginning of time the final ratio of people in heaven vs people in heaven. So from God’s perspective its already said and done. While i may have a choice, God leaves us blind to the true Difficulty level of making it to heaven, by not revealing the count of how many make it and how many don’t. Playing a game with eternal stakes where you don’t even know the odds seems very foolish.

You would never bet all your money on a blind poker hand against a stacked deck.
But God does bet our eternal soul on our freely willed choice.
a truly dangerous gamble, and God knew some would go the wrong way, and he didn’t care. he went ahead and placed the bet anyway, because he wanted men in heaven so bad apparently. Couldn’t God just done without people in heaven, so as to avoid hell if he had too???

• Did God make heaven elusive? No.

If it is the case that more go to hell than heaven, then heaven is very elusive. we don’t know.

• Is it a matter of chance? No.

To an extent it is. If we die at a very young age before we have a chance to commit mortal sin, then chance has very much been on our side.

• Does God sandbag certain individuals so that no matter what they do they are going to hell? No.

He set creation in motion knowing that some would choose hell., to me this is the same thing. as sandbagging individuals. If he had not set creation in motion, no one would be in hell.

• Does EVERYONE have the freedom to choose heaven or hell? Yes.

yes and no. even if freely chosen, the fact that God created so many people apparently made it so it was neccessary that some would be in hell,. If this is the case, while technically still freely choose n, it was impossible that everyone would choose heaven!!!

• Are there conditions that must be met for either? Yes
• Do we know what those conditions are? Yes

Catholics may, but the non-religous have no clue what’s coming if they don’t repent. so not everyone knows the conditions. not everyone really makes an informed decision. life just takes some people by surprise and BOOM eternally hellfire. really sucks. I’m scared.

 

[Brooklyn]

I can’t stand the idea that my Catholic beliefs are more “true” than the beliefs of atheists, people in other religions, etc. Add to that the concept of these Catholic beliefs and teachings being the basis for avoiding hell, and now I’m really upset! I feel trapped in my Catholic faith. I want so badly for it not to be true, so that no one will have to suffer in hell.

and yes the odds. God knew from the beginning of time the final ratio of people in heaven vs people in heaven. So from God’s perspective its already said and done. While i may have a choice, God leaves us blind to the true Difficulty level of making it to heaven, by not revealing the count of how many make it and how many don’t. Playing a game with eternal stakes where you don’t even know the odds seems very foolish.

You would never bet all your money on a blind poker hand against a stacked deck.
But God does bet our eternal soul on our freely willed choice.
a truly dangerous gamble, and God knew some would go the wrong way, and he didn’t care. he went ahead and placed the bet anyway, because he wanted men in heaven so bad apparently. Couldn’t God just done without people in heaven, so as to avoid hell if he had too???

If it is the case that more go to hell than heaven, then heaven is very elusive. we don’t know.

To an extent it is. If we die at a very young age before we have a chance to commit mortal sin, then chance has very much been on our side.

yes and no. even if freely chosen, the fact that God created so many people apparently made it so it was neccessary that some would be in hell,. If this is the case, while technically still freely choose n, it was impossible that everyone would choose heaven!!!

Catholics may, but the non-religous have no clue what’s coming if they don’t repent. so not everyone knows the conditions. not everyone really makes an informed decision. life just takes some people by surprise and BOOM eternally hellfire. really sucks. I’m scared.

All I can say to this is that you don’t understand salvation, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ or the great Love and Mercy of God. If you did understand, you would know you don’t have to be scared. But it does mean separating yourself from this world, and loving God more than this world and even more than yourself. If you think you can love this world and still make it into heaven, then yes, you should be scared. I’m still working on that myself, and I know the only way I will ever achieve it is through God’s grace. But the saints have all told me that it can be done, and Jesus Christ on the Cross tells me it is possible.

To answer all your statements here would take a book, but I implore you, please start educating yourself on just what the Catholic Church teaches, and I mean no disrespect by this, but it is obvious you have no concept.

 

[steve_b]

I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

Isn’t this the same argument Satan used in the garden to get Eve and Adam to disobey God’s command? Yes

Satan said, (paraphrased) Yeah God said you will die, but surely you won’t die if you eat THAT fruit. Afterall, How bad could THAT be? God just doesn’t want you to be as smart as He is.
TA:

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God.

these Catholics don’t know their faith.
TA:

I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

IOW, what’s new? Heresy is in every age.

Show where the NT (give chapter and verse) that the idea of univesalism was EVER taught.
TA:

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

You’re basing this on feeling, not knowledge. Adam and Eve committed ONE sin. There is no record they ever committed another sin after that 1st sin. Were they thrown out of paradise as a consequence? Yes.

 

[DavidKays]

Hit Enter twice. The cursor will move down two rows and give you a space between paragraphs. You have some good thoughts but it’s hard for old farts like me to read.

Thanks!

 

[steve_b]

I can’t stand the idea that my Catholic beliefs are more “true” than the beliefs of atheists, people in other religions, etc.

That’s relativism. It’s saying there is no truth, i.e., your truth is as good as my truth. That’s the confused leading the confused.

It’s also a denial of God’s revelation to us. God gave us His revelation, so that we HAVE the truth and know it. Not some cleverly designed nonsense thought up by confused humans.
s:

Add to that the concept of these Catholic beliefs and teachings being the basis for avoiding hell, and now I’m really upset! I feel trapped in my Catholic faith. I want so badly for it not to be true, so that no one will have to suffer in hell.

I have to say, your approach to this is really odd. Why do you feel trapped? Are you doing something that if you died right this minute, will land you in hell?
s:

and yes the odds. God knew from the beginning of time the final ratio of people in heaven vs people in heaven. So from God’s perspective its already said and done.

God does NOT predestine any soul to hell without their cooperation. That would be called double predestination. It’s a heresy.
newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm
s:

While i may have a choice, God leaves us blind to the true Difficulty level of making it to heaven,

While I disagree, I’ll be interested in your explanation
s:

by not revealing the count of how many make it and how many don’t.

If you do what He commands, you WILL be in heaven with Him, guranteed!

If you do NOT do as He commands you won’t be with Him in heaven.

Check out the passage at the end of the post.

As to quantity who make it or who doesn’t, that’s not yours or my business.
s:

Playing a game with eternal stakes where you don’t even know the odds seems very foolish.

It’s NOT a game. We aren’t playing the odds.
s:

You would never bet all your money on a blind poker hand against a stacked deck.

Get away from the poker game analogy.
s:

But God does bet our eternal soul on our freely willed choice.

Your analogy is terrible and shouldn’t even be used. It shows a woeful lack of knowledge of God and the faith
s:

a truly dangerous gamble, and God knew some would go the wrong way, and he didn’t care.

your analogy is corrupt to begin with, and only gets worse as you try and craft your conclusion.

He loves us IMMENSLY!!! How is it you don’t know that?
s:

he went ahead and placed the bet anyway, because he wanted men in heaven so bad apparently. Couldn’t God just done without people in heaven, so as to avoid hell if he had too???

If it is the case that more go to hell than heaven, then heaven is very elusive. we don’t know.

To an extent it is. If we die at a very young age before we have a chance to commit mortal sin, then chance has very much been on our side.

yes and no. even if freely chosen, the fact that God created so many people apparently made it so it was neccessary that some would be in hell,. If this is the case, while technically still freely choose n, it was impossible that everyone would choose heaven!!!

Catholics may, but the non-religous have no clue what’s coming if they don’t repent.

Who specifically are you speaking of?
s:

so not everyone knows the conditions. not everyone really makes an informed decision. life just takes some people by surprise and BOOM eternally hellfire. really sucks. I’m scared.

Let’s talk about Catholics 1st

Here’s some direction from St Peter. There are

• specific things to do,
• there are conditions (starting with IF),
• there is assurance

2 Pet 1:
make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For ***if ***you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Summarized

• add in increasing amounts those 7 qualities listed
• If one does these in increasing measure you will be effective in knowing Jesus
• one will not stumble, and will receive a rich welcome into heaven
• If one does NOT do these, they are blind, ignorant of Jesus, and they will fall.

teach this to others so THEY can make informed decisions

 

[Charlemagne_II]

sly

*I can’t stand the idea that my Catholic beliefs are more “true” than the beliefs of atheists, people in other religions, etc. Add to that the concept of these Catholic beliefs and teachings being the basis for avoiding hell, and now I’m really upset! I feel trapped in my Catholic faith. I want so badly for it not to be true, so that no one will have to suffer in hell. *

Don’t you believe in truth … and that “the truth will set you free”? Would you really prefer to be enslaved by atheism and the doom of ultimate nothingness for everybody?