Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[BTTG]

Q: What is the official church teaching on what happens after our earthly bodies die: Are we “dead” until Judgment Day or do we immediately go to heaven, hell, or purgatory?

A: Although physical human bodies die, human souls never die. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that every spiritual soul “is immortal: It does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection” (CCC 366).

So at the moment of death, the soul separates from the body, is judged immediately, and enters either heaven (immediately or through purgatory) or hell.
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification or immediately—or immediate and everlasting damnation. (CCC 1022)
(For scriptural evidence of this, see Luke 16:22; 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23.)

for full context
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Second%20Coming

Did the soul die in the first death? No
Does the soul die in the 2nd death? No

The soul is immortal

The soul is immortal.

The soul is NOT destroyed. It is immortal. The body goes through destruction, NOT the soul.

When someone says, you are dead to me, does that mean the person is really dead? Imagine the soul in hell wishing they could die and get it over with, but can’t. It’s the difference between eternal life with God in heaven, and eternal torment with the damned. Both are eternal. Both are choices one makes on this side of eternity.

• The soul is immortal…for the good as well as the bad. Once created, the soul lives forever in heaven with God, or is seperated but fully consious, in hell for all eternity.
• “Believe” in that passage, is not just intellectual recognition. Believe requires action. Ergo, to believe in Jesus is to believe everything He says, AND DO everything He commands. THAT is evidence of belief. Those who sin grievously are said to sin grievously against HIM. If they remain in that condition at death they will be (memory, intellect and will) forever in hell. That does NOT mean lights out. It means one will be fully consious, with their memories intellect and will, fully intact, and operational. They continuously know exactly where they are and why…for all eternity

Jn 6:36 describes

ὀργή orgē =Wrath, God’s anger as in inflicting punishment on who?
αὐτός autos = him, as in him or her or it, or themselves, etc

Why is wrath on him? For NOT believing in the Son.

Does this sound to you like that person described, is going to heaven? Nope!

There’s no mistranslation.

This is an apocalyptic warning. Don’t play games with this warning, just because you have a problem believing in the truth about hell.
catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

With all much respect to all Catholics. I read some answers on this and other threads. When a person replys to an answer and cannot biblically support their opinion, they refer to what the catechism says.

Hey, hell is serious and an irreversible death and will be at the end of the earth in the lake of fire. By the grace of God I will not be going there.

to me it reads as if the dead are unconscious…

(Ecc 9:5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(Ecc 9:6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

(Ecc 9:7) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

(Ecc 9:8) Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

(Ecc 9:9) Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

(Ecc 9:10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Jesus will destroy both the soul and body in hell…

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Again, you are substituting your view of things for God’s justice.
The Bible is clear that hell is a KNOWING suffering, it is not “being dead forever”. What kind of punishment would that be, if someone has no idea they are even being punished?
Instead of quoting sentences, trust in God that His judgements and views are infinitely superior to ours/yours. In other words, let God be God, if you would.

Would our loving God, torment Cain in hell for over 5,000 years and counting…?

written with love

 

[vz71]

Would our loving God, torment Cain in hell for over 5,000 years and counting…?

written with love

If Cain chooses self over God, God will allow that.
And Cain will be seperated forever from God.

We are made to be with God.
If we choose to be apart from God, then like a fish out of water - we suffer.
But unlike this fish, our souls live on forever. So the suffering from being seperate from God continues forever.

 

[tskrobacz]

Disproportionate to what? Your very life if a gift of immeasurable value. In this life you get to practice the Golden rule - in so doing you either fall in love with the lover that granted you this experience or your deny the gift of all creation and set out to accomplish you own will or self interests. It is really is a choice - God does not punish you with hell, you choose it.

 

[commoncents]

The proportionateness of a punishment depends partly on WHO is affected by the offence.

If you hit a young child with your car and they end up permanently injured and needing round-the-clock medical care for the rest of their lives, on average we’re talking decades. So the punishment has to take into account the fact that the victim will suffer the consequences of your action for a long time.

On the contrary, if you hit a 95-year-old who was already in a wheelchair and being fed through a tube, a proportionate punishment will take into account the fact that they won’t have as long to live as the child, and that their quality of life is comparatively not affected as much as a completely healthy child’s would be.

So the ‘proportionate’ punishment, part of the purpose of which is to restore the status quo, on that score means paying less for the 95-year-old and more for the child. Of course it also serves other purposes and other factors will be taken into account.

Translating what I’ve just said to God - you’ve offended an eternal being by your sin. He will suffer eternally for your sin. Think of the lamb of revelation ‘standing as if slain’ - in other words constantly, eternally, wounded and suffering because of our sins.

If we do something that hurts other people but doesn’t offend God, their suffering, and our culpability for it, will be finite. At the worst it will end with their life. So a finite punishment is appropriate. Not so with God.

IMO this isn’t a great argument. The argument would only work if God wasn’t kind or compassionate. The way you set it up it is like God is some sort of ego maniac that is saying

“You masturbated and offended ME! No one offends GOD!!! You will suffer eternally!!!”

Do you see where I am coming from. Why would God be so sensitive…especially when he understands the reasons why people commit these sins (they don’t understand the true nature of things).

 

[steve_b]

Would our loving God, torment Cain in hell for over 5,000 years and counting…?

Yes

I’ve read your other posts. You think that when the body dies so does the soul. And you quote OT passages that says the soul dies. The question is, what does that mean?

**Jesus, The one who fulfills revelation, tells this story. **

The Rich Man and Lazarus

LK 16:
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Notice the points

• Hades is a place of torment, Abraham is in a place of comfort. BOTH are fully aware of who they are and where they are.
• While people in the grave are dead, there is part of them that is fully alive. You don’t see it with your eyes, because your eyes see on a dead body
• The soul as you can see, has memory, intellect and will and lives forever. The rich man in Hades has full faculties of who he is, where he came from, and what he wants and desires. And he feels. All he can do now is suffer…terribly because he is in Hades.
• And he is aware that Abraham who his people haven’t seen in thousands of years, and who he is talking to now, asks a favor because Abraham is in a good place while the Rich man is in a place of torment.
• Is the soul of a good man or a bad man dead when the body dies? Nope! Does the soul only sleep when the body dies? Nope! The soul is immediately judged and goes immediately to heaven (purgatory 1st if necessary) or hell.

Is Jesus pulling a fast one on His listeners by telling this story? Is He contradicting the scriptures that you used? Nope!

The soul does NOT die. Grace in the soul dies. The only place then for that soul is hell. But as you can see, the soul is fully consious.

 

[steve_b]

With all much respect to all Catholics. I read some answers on this and other threads. When a person replys to an answer and cannot biblically support their opinion, they refer to what the catechism says.

Hey, hell is serious and an irreversible death and will be at the end of the earth in the lake of fire. By the grace of God I will not be going there.

to me it reads as if the dead are unconscious…

(Ecc 9:5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(Ecc 9:6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

(Ecc 9:7) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

(Ecc 9:8) Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

(Ecc 9:9) Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

(Ecc 9:10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Jesus will destroy both the soul and body in hell…

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

written with love

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7344821&postcount=86

 

[ConstantineTG]

With all much respect to all Catholics. I read some answers on this and other threads. When a person replys to an answer and cannot biblically support their opinion, they refer to what the catechism says.

News flash, Catholics are not bible-only believers. The Catechism is the official teaching tool of the Church, and it contains official Church teachings. The Catechism itself would quote from the Bible and other important texts such as writings from Church Fathers, and other traditions handed down by the Apostles to the early Christian Churches and carried on until today. We are not limited by the Bible the same way that the Apostles were not limited by the Bible. There was no Bible until at least 300AD. Christianity existed then.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

The Rich Man and Lazarus

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. It is not to be taken literally.

*Hades is a place of torment, Abraham is in a place of comfort.

It seems that some people are trying to have Hell in two ways. One, a place of separation from God and the suffering is in the separation itself. Two, a place where suffering is inflicted upon the sinner.

Where do the saved go when they die but before the resurrection?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Where do the saved go when they die but before the resurrection?

Heaven. At the end of times all saved will be perfected and it will be as it was during the time of Adam and Eve. We are immortal with our flesh, and God is with us. So we both have flesh bodies and have beatific vision.

 

[steve_b]

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. It is not to be taken literally.

Parable
***–noun ****1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. *
*2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. *

Therefore, what part of the parable that Jesus tells, is NOT true?
SP:

It seems that some people are trying to have Hell in two ways. One, a place of separation from God and the suffering is in the separation itself. Two, a place where suffering is inflicted upon the sinner.

You’re making this either/or. It’s both.
SP:

Where do the saved go when they die but before the resurrection?

To heaven, or to purgatory 1st if needed before heaven.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Heaven. At the end of times all saved will be perfected and it will be as it was during the time of Adam and Eve. We are immortal with our flesh, and God is with us. So we both have flesh bodies and have beatific vision.

I asked were dead Christians go before the resurrection. You (and Steve) say to Heaven. Then what’s the purpose of the resurrection? What about those verses that say, or imply, that we don’t go to heaven until after the resurrection?

 

[steve_b]

I asked were dead Christians go before the resurrection. You (and Steve) say to Heaven. Then what’s the purpose of the resurrection?

The soul is reunited with the body. And either returns body and soul to heaven or hell.
SP:

What about those verses that say, or imply, that we don’t go to heaven until after the resurrection?

Souls before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus back to heaven, who were good, were in Abrahams bosom as it was called. A place of comfort and waiting. Heaven was not opened yet by Jesus.

After the ascension, souls are immediately in heaven (purgatory 1st if necessary) or hell

 

[ConstantineTG]

I asked were dead Christians go before the resurrection. You (and Steve) say to Heaven. Then what’s the purpose of the resurrection? What about those verses that say, or imply, that we don’t go to heaven until after the resurrection?

Those who deserve heaven today enter heaven spiritually. On the last day all those who are worthy will be reunited body and soul and will be in paradise, a physical world where there is no death, and there will be Beatific Vision (awareness of God’s presence).

 

[Neutrons]

Going off the assumption that God is eternal, and all sins hurt him. If sinning only hurt people and not god, then I think we could totally believe that people go to hell for a short period of time, problem is, those sins are actually against an eternal god, meaning your punishment should also be eternal. Or something like that.

 

[DavidKays]

Going off the assumption that God is eternal, and all sins hurt him. If sinning only hurt people and not god, then I think we could totally believe that people go to hell for a short period of time, problem is, those sins are actually against an eternal god, meaning your punishment should also be eternal. Or something like that.

Hi! Your assumptions seem interesting. Permit me to say that God does not punish in the the same manner that we do. When God punishes it is because we do not come to Him and totally refuse His help. So what is God going to do? Your refusal slams the door to His Face so how do you expect God to reach you. God does not refuse to help you. It is you who have decided not to accept His help. God can never refuse. So the punishment is deserving because no matter what He does you will never accept His Help and His Salvation and His Grace. This refusal of yours then causes God not to interfere with your choice and you bring about your own punishment which in effect causes your seperation from God. God respects you too much to force Himself on you so He needs your response for Him to act. This is what we call Faith. More precisely Faith can be interpreted to be called Trust. God needs this from us so that He can act more freely in our souls. Without this Faith or Trust I really do not believe God will act. An act or will on our part is all it takes and God will do the rest. Sin actually cannot hurt God. All the sins of the world are only grains of sand in the hand of God. They can all melt in the furnace of His Love. What sin does is not change God but it changes us. God is always the same, All-Merciful, All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate. He cannot change. But we can change when we sin. Look at our first parents. One day they are celebrating their love for God and the next day they are hiding in the bushes. Sin can do that in a person. Look for instance at the Pharisees. God was trying to tell them their faults and instead of listening to Him to acknowledge the Truth they went ahead to crucify that Truth. If you can’t acknowledge the truth about yourself then you crucify the One who is able to save you. When you do acknowledge the truth about yourself then the gates of heaven are opened to you as such was the case of the good thief who was crucified alongside Jesus. Humilty is the acknowledgement of truth. Truth can be good whether you committed good things or bad things. As long as you commit yourself to the truth then as Jesus said " You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free! " So your sins can only harm you. What God is trying to do is to help you to determine the truth about yourself so that you can be healed and be saved. The pharisees rejected this truth and therefore condemned God. While He was on the Cross He was still trying to reach them when He said " Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." What are they not knowing? The truth about themelves. They rather listen to the devil who injects lies into their lives. Jesus confirm this when He said to the Pharisees " You are of your father the devil and you listen to him rather then to the Truth." And even with these words Jesus was trying to reach them. This then is the whole concept for salvation. Truth. To acknowledge it is for your healing unto salvation. Without it then you enter into a state of lies which can bring about disastrous results for yourself. Hell then is the Eternal rejection of Truth and the acceptance of lies. Why will you go to God when you believe in the lie more than you believe in the truth? You will not go to Him at all as long as you believe in those lies. This then is why we become totally seperated from God because we become totally seperated from the Truth. This then is why we need to open ourselves to Our Lord to learn more about the truth about ourselves so that we can go to Him to receive His Grace and Mercy which will heal all our wounds, wounds that we have inflicted upon ourselves. That is why we need so desperately God so as to help us with the wounds others inflict on us or the wounds we inflict upon ourselves.

 

[vz71]

It seems that some people are trying to have Hell in two ways. One, a place of separation from God and the suffering is in the separation itself. Two, a place where suffering is inflicted upon the sinner.

I am starting a new thread to address this specific question.

 

[Brooklyn]

IMO this isn’t a great argument. The argument would only work if God wasn’t kind or compassionate. The way you set it up it is like God is some sort of ego maniac that is saying

“You masturbated and offended ME! No one offends GOD!!! You will suffer eternally!!!”

Do you see where I am coming from. Why would God be so sensitive…especially when he understands the reasons why people commit these sins (they don’t understand the true nature of things).

Since you don’t state your religion, we don’t if you’re Catholic or not. This is a Catholic forum, so you are going to hear what the Catholic beliefs are.

First of all, I always find it interesting that those who try to minimize sin will usually use some sort of sexual sin - artificial birth control, masturbation, etc. Why is that? Sex is a precious, life giving gift given to us by God with strict instructions on how to use it. We think we can decide to use it any way we want, and God should just go along with us. Sorry, but it just doesn’t work that way. Do you think it is only coincidental that so many of the problems in the world come from the misuse of sex? Why do you think that is?

That aside, your comment shows little understanding of God’s nature. God is the Creator of the Universe, the omnipotent one. He does not need us nor does He owe us anything. He gave us this world, told us how to live in order to have happy successful lives and be able to spend eternity with him, and we thumbed our noses at him. As stated in one of my earlier posts, because our first parents choose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of the tree of life, we are all conceived and born in sin, separated from God, destined for hell. But because of God’s great love for us, he sent his Son to this earth to die for us, cleansing us of our sin and giving us a new nature, thus enabling us to come into God’s presence. There is nothing we have done or can do to be worthy of that. It is a gift from God.

But we, of course, because we have been given free will, must say yes to God to pass from death to life. And we can’t do it half-heartedly. Christ didn’t die “half heartedly”. He gave his all, and as he tells us, we must lose our life in order to gain life. And we must allow God to completely cleanse us of all sins and imperfections, not an unpainful or easy process. It is not a matter of “offending” God or of God being too “sensitive”. It is a matter of God being completely perfect, and his inability to allow any imperfection into his presence. The only reason we are allowed to come into his presence while we are still in this life is because of the great Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

God is a God of love on a scale that we can’t even imagine. To allow sin into eternity with him would not be love. We would have an eternity much like our lives on this earth, with misery and suffering. If that is what you choose, then you have chosen hell. There will be no imperfection in heaven.

 

[LilyM]

IMO this isn’t a great argument. The argument would only work if God wasn’t kind or compassionate. The way you set it up it is like God is some sort of ego maniac that is saying

“You masturbated and offended ME! No one offends GOD!!! You will suffer eternally!!!”

Do you see where I am coming from. Why would God be so sensitive…especially when he understands the reasons why people commit these sins (they don’t understand the true nature of things).

So you find it egomaniacal that someone who is offended or hurt would want restitution from the one who offended or hurt them?

So by your logic the 92 year old or the child who’s been run over, when they seek compensation from you who have run them over, are also egomaniacs.

In fact the whole justice system by your logic has not a thing to do with higher principle and is solely designed to stroke the egos of those who are seeking what they mistakenly call justice.

And the principle that those who choose to do wrong and hurt others should pay a penalty that relates to the magnitude of the wrong they have done is - what? A load of baloney? Why?

 

[Historicity]

Someone please explain to me how the whole concept of heaven and hell isn’t ridiculous.

Why would a supposedly omnipotent God subject a person that has committed x number of sins to the same place of condemnation and same amount of eternal pain/torture what have you, as a person that has committed 3x number of sins.

It’s quite obvious looking at the world that people can’t be separated into 2 groups of good vs. bad.