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steve_b
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*]We wouldn’t know about either, or believe in them, if it wasn’t for the one who created them telling us they exist and are real.
*]Re: Hell, youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4
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Adam1986
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NO I DON’T! I started this whole thing off by saying IMO (In My Opinion). Everyone is entitled to have an opinion. I’m not saying that I’m right, I’m just saying what I THINK.
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Tantum_ergo
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That’s fine --but you’ve been given some very good examples of what the Church thinks and how that differs from what you think.NO I DON’T! I started this whole thing off by saying IMO (In My Opinion). Everyone is entitled to have an opinion. I’m not saying that I’m right, I’m just saying what I THINK.
So. . .point remains. Where you have been shown what (and why) the Church thinks. . and YOU ‘disagree’, then Lily is quite right to note that it appears that you are setting yourself up in opposition.
So why DO you disagree with the Church’s position?
Why do you fixate on trying to make a mortal sin a one-time ‘temporal’ action that lasted for say X number of years, as though it then STOPS? That’s the whole point–an UNREPENTED MORTAL SIN is a grave action that offends God, is freely known and freely chosen and ETERNAL unless it is repented.
So if you know missing Mass is a mortal sin, and you choose to miss anyway, and then when you die you look God in the eye and say, “Yeah, I know it’s a mortal sin but I’m not sorry”. . .do you really think that God is punishing you for missing ONE DAY OF MASS? He isn’t. YOU are freely choosing to reject God, not for ‘one day of missed Mass’ but for a continued state of rebellion and rejection, which you will then continue to experience for eternity.
IOW, you freely choose to inflict hell on yourself for a continued and eternal mortal sin, unrepented, and ‘added onto’ by the final impenitence and eternal state of rejection.
That isn’t ‘one little sin’ by a longshot.
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Adam1986
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Actually I also want to expand on my response to you.
In regards to looking at a woman in lust, Jesus said if you look at a woman in lust; then you have already committed adultery in your heart. Well IMO committing adultery in your heart is not even close to committing it in real life.
For example let’s just say I look at someone in anger and commit murder in my heart. Have I really committed actual murder? No, of course not.
So IMO Jesus saying you have already committed adultery in your heart does not mean that you have actually committed adultery, only that you have allowed something impure into your heart. And while that may be a sin, it certainly does not equate to going out and cheating on your spouse.
As for calling someone a “fool”, IMO Jesus meant don’t judge someone. Plain and simple. It’s not so much calling someone a name, but judging them and putting yourself in God’s place.
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Tantum_ergo
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Adam, why should we accept YOUR opinions as authoritatively and authentically giving the ‘true’ meaning to Christ’s teachings --may I ask?
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Adam1986
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**Well, IMO it is. If someone were to say miss Mass once, it’s not something that would warrant being stuck next to an unrepentant serial killer for all eternity. IMO God knows what he’s doing and can see the difference between missing one Mass once and never repenting and committing one murder once and never repenting.
They’re apples and oranges. For what it’s worth though, I do think that missing Mass is a sin and very disrespectful to God. However not bad enough to warrant eternal damnation.
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Adam1986
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YOU SHOULDN’T! These are just my opinions that I am stating. I keep saying IMO (In My Opinion). Someone asked a question in this thread and I just gave my opinions on the matter as every other person has on here. None of us are God and none of use should have our opinions taken as absolute truth.
The non-repentent soul by definition is rejecting God’s forgivness.
And it is this rejection (not the missed Mass) that will send someone to hell.
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violet81
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If you have rejected God (intentionally, not accidentally) then being with Him would be more painful than being away from Him. Hence the reason Hell is a mercy.
It is like when you have been in pitch black darkness and someone turns on the light and your eyes burn and you can barely open them. If you did open them it would be very painful so you keep them closed or squinted. God is a fiery light of love, and if we are in darkness then we can’t bare His closeness to us.
Also- if you have true love you aren’t afraid of hell. True love means preferring your own suffering to that of another persons. We should all be willing to suffer torment for the love of another.
It is like when you have been in pitch black darkness and someone turns on the light and your eyes burn and you can barely open them. If you did open them it would be very painful so you keep them closed or squinted. God is a fiery light of love, and if we are in darkness then we can’t bare His closeness to us.
Also- if you have true love you aren’t afraid of hell. True love means preferring your own suffering to that of another persons. We should all be willing to suffer torment for the love of another.
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steve_b
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I would like to suggest that, In your example of missing mass on purpose, I think the main point is being missed.
Scripture warns Heb 10:23-29
- not to miss mass purposely on Sunday, as is the habit of some
- it’s already considered a mortal sin to do so. Why?
- because that person who does this on purpose, ignores the sacrifice for sin] & by doing so, they profane the [blood of the covenant[/COLOR]]. Both references to the Eucharist. Mt 26:28 28 for this is my blood of the * covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.*
- the consequences to that soul for this? prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries of God.
- That consequence mentioned can only describe the result of a mortal sin. And I sure won’t gamble OR argue with that.
For convenience here is the passage (all emphasis mine)
Heb 10:
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
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violet81
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I think it might be worth considering that much of what people do is not with full knowledge or full intention.
Our subconscious influences our actions in ways we don’t comprehend.
Our subconscious influences our actions in ways we don’t comprehend.
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steve_b
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That’s why this forum is so helpful in giving people the knowledge if they are lacking in it.
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Tantum_ergo
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Wait, you really do not seem to understand. Mortal sin is mortal sin. Not ‘applies and oranges.’ Apples and oranges would be if you were confusing mortal and venial sin. But one mortal sin is just as ‘deadly’ as another mortal sin.
A person who commits one murder is just as ‘bad’ as somebody who commits two murders. Yes, really. A mass murderer might seem to be ‘worse’ than somebody who ‘ONLY’ (only!!!) commits one murder, but that ‘seems’ just shows how our own moral compass might be ‘out of whack.’
The idea that people now have that they can pick and choose (no, I am not accusing you personally) whether a sin is ‘mortal’ or not (and disregard the Church’s teaching); the idea that somehow ONLY a really ‘heinous’ example (mass murder) is ‘bad enough’ to merit hell while other sins are whitewashed or ‘justified’ or plain ‘announced’ to be ‘not bad enough for hell’ shows just how truly puffed with pride many humans are today. No, the teaching of the Church isn’t ‘good enough’, no, THEY can somehow be ‘smarter’ or ‘nicer’ than the Church, hah.
This is a huge example of making god into OUR image. If ‘we’ deem something or someone ‘bad’, they’re bad. But if we think something is not ‘important’ enough, or that it’s not ‘really’ bad, hey presto, look at the magic we can do! We can ‘override’ God’s judgment in favor of our ‘better’ judgment!
I just cannot fathom how somebody can just assume that they ‘know better’ or can determine more than God Himself what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. . .
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Debora123
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I’ll have to agree with Adam1986 on this one. It seems totally unreasonable that missing one mass would bring you down to the same level as committing mass murder.
I know that supposedly the intention is the same - you are knowingly turning away from God. But come on, no one sins and thinks to themselves “I am doing this because I reject God and never want to be with Him.” Sometimes we sin even though we know it’s a sin, but we do it because we gave in to temptation, because we are weak human beings who got caught in a moment of weakness and who made a mistake - not because we are “purposely wanting to turn our backs on God.”
I know I’ve been guilty of skipping mass a couple times in my life, and while I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway because I was too lazy, or had other things I’d rather do, or was feeling tired/upset. NOT because I directly wanted to reject God. I simply got caught in a moment of weakness and wrongfully made a bad choice and made a mistake. It was still very sinful of me, of course, but the point is, I didn’t do it because I wanted to reject God. And I don’t think I would have deserved to go straight to Hell if I had died in a car accident a couple hours later. Maybe a long long time in purgatory, to put my heart back in the right place, but certainly not eternal damnation. At least I’d like to think not
I know that supposedly the intention is the same - you are knowingly turning away from God. But come on, no one sins and thinks to themselves “I am doing this because I reject God and never want to be with Him.” Sometimes we sin even though we know it’s a sin, but we do it because we gave in to temptation, because we are weak human beings who got caught in a moment of weakness and who made a mistake - not because we are “purposely wanting to turn our backs on God.”
I know I’ve been guilty of skipping mass a couple times in my life, and while I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway because I was too lazy, or had other things I’d rather do, or was feeling tired/upset. NOT because I directly wanted to reject God. I simply got caught in a moment of weakness and wrongfully made a bad choice and made a mistake. It was still very sinful of me, of course, but the point is, I didn’t do it because I wanted to reject God. And I don’t think I would have deserved to go straight to Hell if I had died in a car accident a couple hours later. Maybe a long long time in purgatory, to put my heart back in the right place, but certainly not eternal damnation. At least I’d like to think not
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steve_b
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Missing mass on purpose is a mortal sin.I’ll have to agree with Adam1986 on this one. It seems totally unreasonable that missing one mass would bring you down to the same level as committing mass murder.
I know that supposedly the intention is the same - you are knowingly turning away from God. But come on, no one sins and thinks to themselves “I am doing this because I reject God and never want to be with Him.” Sometimes we sin even though we know it’s a sin, but we do it because we gave in to temptation, because we are weak human beings who got caught in a moment of weakness and who made a mistake - not because we are “purposely wanting to turn our backs on God.”
I know I’ve been guilty of skipping mass a couple times in my life, and while I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway because I was too lazy, or had other things I’d rather do, or was feeling tired/upset. NOT because I directly wanted to reject God. I simply got caught in a moment of weakness and wrongfully made a bad choice and made a mistake. It was still very sinful of me, of course, but the point is, I didn’t do it because I wanted to reject God. And I don’t think I would have deserved to go straight to Hell if I had died in a car accident a couple hours later. Maybe a long long time in purgatory, to put my heart back in the right place, but certainly not eternal damnation. At least I’d like to think not
**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
rid your soul of those sins in confession.
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ChrisCrop
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hmmmm. should I or shouldn’t I ?
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Tantum_ergo
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While circumstances might mitigate the gravity of an action, let’s get serious here. You’re trying to justify an action (missing Mass) by saying that it wasn’t really rejection (disobedience) that was an issue, it was ‘laziness’ or ‘other things’ or ‘being tired’ that you were really feeling.I’ll have to agree with Adam1986 on this one. It seems totally unreasonable that missing one mass would bring you down to the same level as committing mass murder.
I know that supposedly the intention is the same - you are knowingly turning away from God. But come on, no one sins and thinks to themselves “I am doing this because I reject God and never want to be with Him.” Sometimes we sin even though we know it’s a sin, but we do it because we gave in to temptation, because we are weak human beings who got caught in a moment of weakness and who made a mistake - not because we are “purposely wanting to turn our backs on God.”
I know I’ve been guilty of skipping mass a couple times in my life, and while I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway because I was too lazy, or had other things I’d rather do, or was feeling tired/upset. NOT because I directly wanted to reject God. I simply got caught in a moment of weakness and wrongfully made a bad choice and made a mistake. It was still very sinful of me, of course, but the point is, I didn’t do it because I wanted to reject God. And I don’t think I would have deserved to go straight to Hell if I had died in a car accident a couple hours later. Maybe a long long time in purgatory, to put my heart back in the right place, but certainly not eternal damnation. At least I’d like to think not
Here’s the deal. If you truly knew that missing Mass was gravely sinful, and you freely did it anyway, you might have been ‘somewhat’ influenced by ‘laziness’ (itself a sin), or being tired (a subjective ‘feeling’) or by wanting to do ‘other things’ (as though you could never have a chance to do that ‘other thing’ and the other thing were more ‘important to God’ than attending Mass. . .
IOW, you might have had an ‘inclination’ that you felt ‘helped’ you choose to sin.
But you know what? You could have (and easily) chosen to say, “I don’t ‘feel’ like it but I wish to obey God”. . .and gone.
You could have said, “I’m tired, but I’ve done plenty of things I wanted to when I was just as tired. . .or more. I’m going to obey God.”
You could have done that.
Seems to me that you want to put all the blame on ‘outside forces’ when you DISobey God, but take all the credit “I deserve heaven, dang it” when you actually wind up obeying Him. That isn’t right.
Nobody can judge an individual’s ‘heart’ except that person and God. All we can do is state whether an action is, or is not, ‘objectively’ sinful. Now it may be that some person truly sinned mortally but his or her culpability was ‘lessened’ in some way. Only God (and the person) know. But that is really much more the ‘exception’ than the rule. Just because we are a generation (or two) in which supposedly we haven’t been ‘properly taught’ doesn’t mean we get a free pass, or that we aren’t supposed to learn. It’s not as if the correct teachings aren’t out there, quite readily available. And so we have ‘other things’ or ‘tiredness’ or ‘society’ that ‘influence us’, well whoop-de-do for us, it’s not as if we are the first, or the ONLY, society that ever faced such a ‘challenge.’
I am NOT trying to belittle or be unfair but YES, ETERNITY in HELL IS a reasonable CONSEQUENCE of deliberate UNREPENTED mortal sin. Because the sin itself, (unrepented) is eternal.
Now if you’ve sinned mortally and you’re already sorry, even if you haven’t made it to confession, God will judge you appropriately.
You are not going to be HURLED INTO HELL if you have repented before death. God is merciful. But you are also NOT going to be ‘passed into heaven’ if you sin, and you say, "Yes, I sinned that sin but I wasn’t REALLY trying to reject you God, it was my laziness or my tiredness that made me do it, so why are you asking me to repent when I won’t even admit that I --not my ‘laziness’, not my ‘tiredness’, not whatever ‘made’ me sin–was at fault? (IOW, if you do not repent because you won’t even accept your guilt, you are basically rejecting God too. “Yes, God, I know YOU said missing Mass was wrong, but I was tired, so you shouldn’t blame me, and I don’t have to say I’m sorry because I’m not going to admit I was wrong!” (Ouch. I sure wouldn’t like to say that to God.)
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slywakka250
Guest
hell entails unmitigated intolerable torture for all eternity with no parole and no hope. You are in absolute despair and doom. Hell is the worst possible state imaginable, as you are separated from all that is good forever.
Nobody would willingly choose this horror, right??
for example, how come if you ask somebody, “hey do you want to come with me and commit mortal sin x?” (of which the person is fully willing and fully knowledgable about) you get a different answer than if you ask somebody, “hey do you want to spend your eternity in unmitigated extreme intolerable fiery torture”??
It seems that if mortal sin x is really an action deserving hell, the sinner should at the moment he does action x, fully consent to the idea of a fiery hell forever, and accept it as his destiny.
In most cases when people commit mortal sin, they delude themselves of the reality of hell. I don’t see how their mortal sin can really be mortal when they are not fully presence and aware of the horror caused by the sin. (hell)
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Tantum_ergo
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You know, people can TRY to delude themselves about all sorts of things. They can convince themselves that chocolate has no calories if it’s eaten standing up. . . but that doesn’t mean that God will then ‘change’ the chocolate to ‘no calories’. IOW. . .if somebody eats a 2 pound box of chocolates standing up while proclaiming, “No calories if standing up”. . that person is going to get sick to his stomach AND gain weight, even if he is convinced he won’t.
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES. Eternal (we are talking of UNREPENTED SIN, hon) actions have eternal consequences.
I keep having to stress UNREPENTED. We are NOT talking of people who are SORRY for their sins.
NOBODY is going to be sent to hell while wailing, “I"m sorry God.”
Nobody will be sent ‘unjustly’.
Failure to understand the consequences does not mean that the person did not freely choose, and it does not mean that they should not have to live with the consequences.
The fact of the mortal sin indicates full willingness in the sin, full complicity in the sin, and full knowledge that it is a serious sin.
Note, full understanding of hell is not required. Just full knowledge of the sin.
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