Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[LilyM]

Debora, where in the Catechism, or any other official Church document, does it mention that one must have the conscious intent of offending God?

Where does it say it’s not enough to simply KNOW that your sin is serious (ie DOES in fact and actually seriously hurt Him, whatever your intent may be) and that, being aware that this is the case, one chooses to do it anyway?

If your husband skipped your anniversary dinner, through ‘laziness’ or ‘weakness’ rather than legitimate good reason, and his response to you about it was essentially ‘meh, big deal, it’s not like I hit you or anything, look at all the other years I managed to make it to our anniversary dinner, after all! I don’t think skipping it this once was bad enough for you to be seriously mad at me about it’ - would your reaction be anything like so accepting about his mistake as you expect God’s to be towards those who skip HIS (and our, we are the Bride after all) wedding feast, the Eucharist?

 

[Debora123]

But they lack the characteristic of being grave matter - in other words they lack the characteristic of being inherently serious sins. You would never in a million years have said ‘I stole 5 cents, and it was a serious sin’. Because it simply isn’t one. That is what distinguishes it from mortal sin.

You yourself admitted, on the other hand, that you knew your sin of skipping Mass WAS serious, that is grave. This is indicated by the fact that you felt the need to confess it - you wouldn’t have run off to confession if you’d stolen five cents, right?

Ok, so mortal sin = deliberate separation from God.

With that being said…

I think that missing mass can be a mortal sin depending on your intention, in the same way that stealing can be a mortal sin depending on your intention. Of course the bible/catechism isn’t going to say “oh stealing is a mortal sin deserving of Hell but only when…”. It’s merely going to say “stealing is a mortal sin deserving of Hell.” In the same way, it’s not going to say “missing mass is a mortal sin deserving of Hell *but only when… *”. It’s merely going to say “missing mass is a mortal sin deserving of Hell.”

That’s why we have common sense coupled with a good conscience. That’s why a conscience is so important. If it was merely about just following the written rules word per word, then what would be the point of having a conscience?

And that is why “mortal sin” is explained by itself. For something to be a mortal sin deserving of Hell, there needs to be a certain intent involved.

And yes, I said missing mass is a horrible thing to do. Yelling at your friend is a horrible thing to do. Swearing is a horrible thing to do. Any sin is pretty terrible. That doesn’t mean I think they all make us worthy of eternal damnation. And to answer your question, I try to go to confession about once a month, and if I had stolen a small amount of money from someone, I would have confessed that as well.

 

[Debora123]

If your husband skipped your anniversary dinner, through ‘laziness’ or ‘weakness’ rather than legitimate good reason, and his response to you about it was essentially ‘meh, big deal, it’s not like I hit you or anything, look at all the other years I managed to make it to our anniversary dinner, after all! I don’t think skipping it this once was bad enough for you to be seriously mad at me about it’ - would your reaction be anything like so accepting about his mistake as you expect God’s to be towards those who skip HIS (and our, we are the Bride after all) wedding feast, the Eucharist?

If he had skipped out on doing something with me for our anniversary out of laziness, I would have been very hurt. But I wouldn’t have left him.

If he had skipped out on doing something with me for our anniversary because he doesn’t love me anymore and doesn’t want to be with me, I would have been even more hurt, and I would have left him.

 

[LilyM]

If he had skipped out on doing something with me for our anniversary out of laziness, I would have been very hurt. But I wouldn’t have left him.

If he had skipped out on doing something with me for our anniversary because he doesn’t love me anymore and doesn’t want to be with me, I would have been even more hurt, and I would have left him.

And God doesn’t leave those who are in Hell, they leave Him!

Surely the fact that your husband is too lazy/weak to be bothered to show up for your anniversary, even knowing that you’d planned a dinner to celebrate and were there at the restaurant or in the dining room at home waiting for him, IS a big bright red flag post that he in fact doesn’t particularly love you and doesn’t want particularly to be with you.

It’s a sign that he loves his football or his sleep or whatever else he was doing instead more than he loves you, and would rather be by himself or with someone else than with you. Which should be unacceptable for any self-respecting wife.

We aren’t just called to love God, remember, but to love Him with ALL our mind, heart, soul and strength. Skipping Mass out of laziness is the very opposite of that attitude that we are called to have.

 

[vz71]

Of course the bible/catechism isn’t going to say “oh stealing is a mortal sin deserving of Hell but only when…”. It’s merely going to say “stealing is a mortal sin deserving of Hell.” In the same way, it’s not going to say “missing mass is a mortal sin deserving of Hell *but only when… *”. It’s merely going to say “missing mass is a mortal sin deserving of Hell.”

You may want to go back to the CCC and look up the entries on mortal sin.
The CCC does not provide a rundown of mortal sins, it provides the 3 conditions that make a sin mortal.

And yes, I said missing mass is a horrible thing to do. Yelling at your friend is a horrible thing to do. Swearing is a horrible thing to do. Any sin is pretty terrible. That doesn’t mean I think they all make us worthy of eternal damnation. And to answer your question, I try to go to confession about once a month, and if I had stolen a small amount of money from someone, I would have confessed that as well.

You are attempting to equivocate the seriousness of the sin of missing Mass with lesser sins. This is not true, and the CCC does specify the matter to be grave.
And earlier in this thread you were in agreement that the matter was serious.

 

[vz71]

If he had skipped out on doing something with me for our anniversary because he doesn’t love me anymore and doesn’t want to be with me, I would have been even more hurt, and I would have left him.

Mortal sins demonstrate this lack of love to God.

Fortunately while we still live we can go to confession to repent.

But should we die in this state, we die seperated from God forever.

 

[Debora123]

It’s a sign that he loves his football or his sleep or whatever else he was doing instead more than he loves you, and would rather be by himself or with someone else than with you. Which should be unacceptable for any self-respecting wife.

…Or it could just be that he’s a weak human being who made one bad mistake in our marriage. Those of us who are married know that we sometimes hurt each other and in times love ourselves more than we are loving the other person, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we want to separate ourselves completely from them. It just means we aren’t perfect and make mistakes sometimes. I know I’ve had my moments where I’ve acted selfishly and did something that really hurt my husband. That doesn’t mean I wanted to divorce him.

 

[vz71]

I know I’ve had my moments where I’ve acted selfishly and did something that really hurt my husband. That doesn’t mean I wanted to divorce him.

Of course not.
It simply means that for those periods of time, your wants and desires were placed above him.

When we do this to God, it is called sin.
When it is serious, and we know it, and we do it freely, it is called mortal sin.

And since you wish to use this example, consider the effect divorce papers drawn up would have. Whether you intend it or not, drawing those papers causes certain things.

Mortal sin is the same. Whether we intend the effects or not, they are there.

 

[LilyM]

…Or it could just be that he’s a weak human being who made one bad mistake in our marriage. Those of us who are married know that we sometimes hurt each other and in times love ourselves more than we are loving the other person, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we want to separate ourselves completely from them. It just means we aren’t perfect and make mistakes sometimes. I know I’ve had my moments where I’ve acted selfishly and did something that really hurt my husband. That doesn’t mean I wanted to divorce him.

Yes, and I’m sure that because you love your husband you didn’t try to minimise your wrong in any way, or dismiss or excuse one particle of the seriousness of it, or make out that he was making too much of a big deal out of it or anything.

Instead I’m sure you simply and sincerely apologised without any reservations. And I’m sure if you’d done any less, if you’d tried any of the other tricks I’ve mentioned, he probably wouldn’t have accepted your apology, and maybe would not have remained with you depending on how badly you’d hurt him and how little regret and understanding you displayed about it.

We’re not talking about those who do wrong and are sincerely and wholeheartedly repentant. They won’t go to hell.

We’re talking about those who aren’t sincere, who try to make excuses, try to minimise their faults.

Even when He, through the Church, makes it clear as clear can be that something like missing Mass is grave matter. And the Catechism admits of no doubt on the topic. This is unlike other sins, such as lying, where the CCC explicitly SAYS the seriousness of a lie depends, for example, on the nature of the truth that isn’t told. Or killing, where it says self-defence or legitimate defence of country are cases where one can kill.

 

[Debora123]

Mortal sin is the same. Whether we intend the effects or not, they are there.

Yeah… I disagree. In my opinion, intention matters a lot when it comes to how we are judged for eternal life. It all depends on what’s in the person’s heart.

 

[LilyM]

Yeah… I disagree. In my opinion, intention matters a lot when it comes to how we are judged for eternal life. It all depends on what’s in the person’s heart.

Of course when we sin knowing something is grave matter we do in fact intend to hurt God. Same with any other sin, in fact, that we commit conscious of the fact that it is sinful. I’m not talking about things we do by accident, not knowing that they are sins at all, or unaware of the distinction between the venial and the mortal sin.

When we sin with awareness, it’s just that our desire for something else - our own ease and comfort, for example - is more important to us at that time than the fact that what we do offends God. And the fact is that at that time we are willing to, and do knowingly, hurt God to achieve that other aim. No getting around it.

NOW tell me why ignoring the fact that we are offending God gravely, for the sake of some lesser aim, isn’t worthy of Hell IF we don’t repent of it?

 

[Debora123]

Yes, and I’m sure that because you love your husband you didn’t try to minimise your wrong in any way, or dismiss or excuse one particle of the seriousness of it, or make out that he was making too much of a big deal out of it or anything.

No, not try to excuse it, but I can say that I did that wrong thing due to a moment of weakness, and not because I wanted to divorce him - and that definitely minimizes the hurt.

We can do something wrong to our spouses because 1. we messed up and in our human weakness had a moment of selfishness, or 2. because we don’t love them and don’t want to be with them anymore.

I know that if he had done something to me with the first intention, it would be less painful and destructive than if he had done it with the second intention. and Vice versa.

 

[Debora123]

NOW tell me why ignoring the fact that we are offending God gravely, for the sake of some lesser aim, isn’t worthy of Hell IF we don’t repent of it?

Because depending on the person’s intention, it might not be offending Him gravely (no more than a venial sin). That’s why it’s something only God can judge, and that’s why we can’t ever say for sure whether or not someone is in Hell. Suicide, for example, is a mortal sin. However, we can’t say for sure that everyone who has committed suicide has gone to Hell, because like I’ve been saying, it’s not that black and white, and there’s more to it than that. It all depends on the person’s intention and what was in their hearts. Only God can see that. Likewise, I don’t think any of you can say that I would definitely have gone to Hell if I had died before I had repented having missed one mass.

 

[LilyM]

No, not try to excuse it, but I can say that I did that wrong thing due to a moment of weakness, and not because I wanted to divorce him - and that definitely minimizes the hurt.

Of course to say ‘it was just due to a moment of weakness’ is an attempt to excuse it, it’s nothing else. And if you did what you did knowing that it would hurt him seriously, then it’s an insult to him and his very real feelings that you would try to do so.

Perhaps I’ve been using the wrong analogy. Let’s say that if you cheated on your husband, even a single one-night stand in the entire course of your marriage, it would seriously hurt him. Let’s say you personally don’t see a one-night stand as being anything that serious, but you DO know that he would be utterly devastated by it and probably leave you over it.

Let’s say, then, that, in a ‘moment of weakness, and not because you wanted to divorce him’, you succumbed to temptation and had a one-off encounter. Knowing his feelings beforehand, of course you shouldn’t be surprised when he DOES leave you over something you see as being relatively trivial, after all your eyes were wide open and you weren’t forced in any way into your adultery but chose it freely.

And I hope to God you wouldn’t try to ‘minimise the hurt’ and come out with platitudes about it being ‘a moment of weakness and not because you wanted to divorce him’ or anything like that. Adultery hurts many of us excruciatingly, like it or not, and to try to minimise it is to insult the one who is hurt. The thing to do is freely acknowledge the legitimacy and rightness of their feelings.

 

[LilyM]

Because depending on the person’s intention, it might not be offending Him gravely (no more than a venial sin). That’s why it’s something only God can judge, and that’s why we can’t ever say for sure whether or not someone is in Hell. Suicide, for example, is a mortal sin. However, we can’t say for sure that everyone who has committed suicide has gone to Hell, because like I’ve been saying, it’s not that black and white, and there’s more to it than that. It all depends on the person’s intention and what was in their hearts. Only God can see that. Likewise, I don’t think any of you can say that I would definitely have gone to Hell if I had died before I had repented having missed one mass.

No, it’s always offending Him gravely. That’s an objective characteristic inherent in the sin of missing Mass. If someone stabs me in the arm it hurts, regardless if they lacked intention to hurt me. So objectively to do so is a grave act. There are SOME acts that aren’t objectively grave, but grave only depending on circumstances, such as the lying or the stealing. Others, like adultery, are always inherently grave matter - and skipping Mass without good reason falls into the latter type of gravity.

SUBJECTIVELY, if you lack knowledge or consent, your guilt might be less than mortal. Like if it was my one-year-old niece who stabbed me in the arm by accident, she’s in a different boat to my adult sister who deliberately does it. And both still objectively did a grave act by stabbing me in the arm, even if my niece didn’t know at all what she was doing, and even if my sister’s intent was to stop me using that hand to fire a gun at her or something. It’s the subjective element that determines guilt when the act is objectively grave. Including the objectively grave act of missing Mass.

Arguably, because you don’t appear to understand the difference between inherently grave and circumstantially grave matter, and appear to be unaware of the three requirements for mortal sin, it wasn’t a mortal sin for you at the time. However, it’s all quite clearly spelled out in the Catechism, which every Catholic ought to study if possible - at least those portions relevant to sins they are susceptible to! So it’s a matter of to what extent your ignorance was your own fault, for not studying your faith as you ought.

 

[steve_b]

Steve b,
While I agree with everything you have written there, nevertheless I think you are a little too black and white. Life isn’t as simple as that. If a soul ends up in hell I’m sure there will be more than just one mortal sin on their soul.

In sympathy I might wish to agree because it’s a nice thought, but actually contradicts the passage I quoted. The passage I quoted didn’t give numbers of times. It Just said that if one failed to meet for mass as is the habit of some, there is a terrible judgement for THAT soul and obviously all the rest who are missing also… That’s a warning I’m not willing to argue against, or test. Personally, I don’t want to hear Jesus someday say to me, what part of those warnings did you not believe? I think one can forget about talking their way out of a mess. Jesus knows exactly what one knows and doesn’t know. And I’m thinking that there is no back talk at that point.

looking back at what the passage teaches

one now has

• knowledge and warning of a serious matter which is to be avoided
• If one purposely misses mass, they commit a mortal sin. And what does the passage say is waiting for that person? A fiery judgement that consumes the enemies of God.
• I’m thinking, Who in their right mind would go against THAT warning?

therefore, the passage describes all the ingredients for mortal sin.
ob:

Yes, one mortal sin is enough for a soul to end up in hell, but it is unlikely that a conscientious and faithfull Catholic will suddenly decide, one Sunday morning, to say to themselves, “Oh, stuff it, I’m going to miss Mass this morning, I can’t be bothered”

I agree. It is unlikely.
ob:

To talk in terms of a single mortal sin isn’t realistic. People who are in danger of eternal damnation are so, because of a life time of serious sins; a life of carelessness towards the observance of their Catholicism and a cavalier attitude to repentance. Pick and mix Catholics come to mind.

• Did the passage I quoted wiggle on the warning? No. Did it talk about only those with a lifetime of sin get the fiery judgement? No. That’s just not what the passage says
• Re: just one sin, Adam and Eve committed ONE sin, and were thrown out of Paradise. Did they get a second chance to make good? Nope!!! For just ONE sin committed ONCE.
• If we screw up, we have the fantastic sacrament of reconcilliation. But even that sacrament TOO, gets dumbed down when people don’t take advantage of IT, because serious sin gets dumbed down to mere venial. That trick of course won’t fly with God. But Satan gets lots of milage from that trick…

 

[vz71]

Because depending on the person’s intention, it might not be offending Him gravely (no more than a venial sin).

Then you wish to claim that someone who is ignorant of the law can be excused from it?

OK, then knowing what you now know from this thread concerning Mass attendence, and knowing what you now know of Mortal sin…

Missing Mass intentionally is a mortal sin.

 

[TenBobNote]

Haven’t read the comments (way to many!) but here is what I understand.

When we sin it is a sin against God. Since God is Infinite Goodness we sin against Infinite Goodness, so you could say our sin is Infinitely bad, worthy of hell. Yet His son, Jesus Christ in his infinite goodness died for us and all our sins. Therefore it is by his grace alone that any sinner is rewarded Heaven. Hell is what we deserve and would be condemned too without his grace.

So I would say the real logically correct question would be “Isn’t eternity in Heaven a disproportionate reward?”

 

[davidv]

Because depending on the person’s intention, it might not be offending Him gravely (no more than a venial sin). That’s why it’s something only God can judge, and that’s why we can’t ever say for sure whether or not someone is in Hell. Suicide, for example, is a mortal sin. However, we can’t say for sure that everyone who has committed suicide has gone to Hell, because like I’ve been saying, it’s not that black and white, and there’s more to it than that. It all depends on the person’s intention and what was in their hearts. Only God can see that. Likewise, I don’t think any of you can say that I would definitely have gone to Hell if I had died before I had repented having missed one mass.

According to the CCC, intention cannot change the gravity of something is intrinsically grave.

**1753 **A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).

 

[DavidKays]

I will like to make some comments because reading these posts is like going on a roller coaster ride. You will never know where you will be going for on the ride. I find Catholicism way different than the Orthodox Church in her understanding of sin and the effects that are derived from it. Catholicism seems to be more pre-occupied in sin and the consequences to it and if I can say the legalism that comes with it. I find more and more as I have been growing that many people and this is not only Catholics because some Orthodox can be this way too that we can be like the Phariseed of Jesus’ time. Instead of looking at the One who is Mercy we tend to want to judge very similarly like the Pharisee. More and more I see that human nature does not change for the better and people especially in Churches can act the same way as the Pharisees did and instead of Mercy they bring condemnation to themslves. Been on this website for 1 year now I have been exposed to alot and it is my observation that many people do not know really the Lord Jesus and His Message. Oh they know about Him or they know about the Catechism and they have knowledge in that area but consciecously they have not know directly to experience His Love and His Forgiveness and His Concern. All they seem to know is knowledge but with no direct experience. Now knowledge is not that bad. It is good but unless it is supplemented by direct experience with God it can be of no value to you. Look for instance at the devil. He has more knowledge of God then all the saints put together but he has no love. So all that knowledge and he still rebels before God. Do you know why the Saints are saints? Is it because of their knowledge of God? No! It is because of their heroic virtues! This is what seperates the Saints from us. We need to cultivate heroic virtue. Now I am Greek Orthodox and it is the tradition of my Church to taste and experience God’s Love from an early age. We do not have catechisms as such as the Catholic Church teaches because our Catechism comes from our direct experiences we have with our Lord and His Holy Mother. The best type of catechism is your own direct experiences which from an early age can make you fall in love with the Almighty. This is why the Orthodox Church does not suscribe to teaching Catechism as done in the West but teaches Her Children to go into the " wilderness " and to engage with your enemy so as to conquer yourself that is your self-will and to emerge out as one in union with His Lord. This is how the Eastern Church approaches catechism and because of this we have a great arsenal of Saints that have helped us understand the great and deeper mysteries of God and Life. This technique is not well known in the West but it is the Eastern Churches best way of experiencing the Love and Mercy of God. If anyone knows Father John Corapi a beautiful santly and holy Catholic priest, you will discover that he used the Eastern technique for the first 3 years of his conversion and look at the results it did for him. We can be better at helping others and be less judgemental towards those who have sinned. Going to Mass is no big deal unless you have prepared properly for it. Now I do not mean confessing this and confessing that. Is your relationship with God based on Love or some other? Look at the Pharisee and how he judges others and praises himself and then look at the sinner who says I am a sinner. It was the sinner who is justified. What God is searching for is the truth, good or bad. He is not interested in lies. I can recall reading out from one of my favorite books " The diary of St.Maria Faustina " and Jesus told Maria to tell the Mother Superior what these 2 sisters are doing so as to correct them. He said He does not wish to give Himself to them at Mass. He said it will be better if they do not come. Maria at great cost did this and the 2 sisters were disciplined and Jesus said He now welcomes them. In this scenerio Jesus commanded their love be shown to Him. Their distaste to that Love made Him feel rejected even though they came to Him at Mass. What needs to change is our own inner dispostion. This requires courage and many exercises. You will have to face your enemy but that is good. For by confronting the enemy of your soul God will teach you how you can conquer all that is bad in you and to conquer yourself so as to receive more the Grace of the Holy Spirit so then you can become that Light which can lighten the gentiles. This comes from direct experiences and no book can give you this. You then can become that book to read. As many Orthodox Saints have said in the past " Have Peace in your soul and thousands around you will be saved. " It is my opinion that the West or least much part of Her engages too much in the legalism of its own laws rather than to engage in the great romance of the century. I will like to see my Catholic brothers and sisters to see the Eastern approach more and explore it. I will like to see many more Fr.John Corapis because when a Catholic is in love with God boy are they IN LOVE! You have beautiful people and beautiful Saints and learning another technique that the Eastern Church has developed will make you all the better and stronger.