Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[3DOCTORS]

My general thoughts on this thread, for what they’re worth:

People thinking as humans think. It’s so easy to do. We all do it. I certainly have a hard time getting my mind around time vs. eternity and similar concepts. **They’re big concepts. God’s ways aren’t our ways. Our minds are finite, limited. **

If we think too long and hard about some of these concepts, we can not only give ourselves a headacheuch:, we can be tempted to try to “cut to the chase” by thinking we’ve got it all figured out, which can lead us dangerously close to pride and stubbornness. :dts: Or to fear, despair and frustration.

I don’t have any brilliant insights. Study the Catechism and the Bible, talk to priests, read good books - Peter Kreeft is one that comes to my mind, and C.S. Lewis is good. Regarding Lewis, and hell, I would make a plug for reading The Screwtape Letters too.

I can’t stand the idea that my Catholic beliefs are more “true” than the beliefs of atheists, people in other religions, etc. . . . **I want so badly for it not to be true, so that no one will have to suffer in hell. **

and yes the odds. God knew from the beginning of time the final ratio of people in heaven vs people in heaven. . . .Playing a game with eternal stakes where you don’t even know the odds seems very foolish.

You would never bet all your money on a blind poker hand against a stacked deck.
But God does bet our eternal soul on our freely willed choice.
a truly dangerous gamble, and God knew some would go the wrong way, and he didn’t care. he went ahead and placed the bet anyway, because he wanted men in heaven so bad apparently. Couldn’t God just done without people in heaven, so as to avoid hell if he had too???

**
That you care means a “zeal for souls,” IMO. Can you begin to turn it from a despairing to a hopeful outlook? Put aside the depressing parts and think - hey, through prayer, evangelization, good works, and other means, I can help souls get to Heaven! :extrahappy: And trust the rest to God’s mercy. More on that later.

God is infinitely saddened by the people in Hell, since they truly knew what they were doing and rejected Him and His love. If there are mitigating factors, His Divine Mercy will place them in Purgatory and they will eventually reach Heaven. Does this help?

More than anything, I am angry at God for creating me, and exposing me to the risk that I might just choose hell over God.

. . .

The whole process of making our eternal choice feels much too contrived, especially when the Church demands obedience on pain of eternal doom, (i.e. miss one Mass, eat meat on the wrong day, etc) I’m jealous of non-Catholic Christians who don’t have specific mortal sins defined so precisely as we do.

It is also much too mysterious. In this life, we never know for certain if we are right with God. If I were to die this second, I have no clue what my eternal destiny would be. . . These things are not enough given the stakes we are dealing with here. (eternal torture) For instance, I’m not even fully convinced God exists, or any of this matters in the first place. Despite a lot of education in Catholicism, I still feel left out in the dark.

I wish there was a way that my memory could be erased, and all my Catholic upbringing could be gone. I feel trapped in Catholicism, and I wish it would all just go away. All this talk of mortal sin and hell causes me a lot of distress and anxiety, and it really makes me depressed. You might say I feel this way because I’m a big sinner and I have “rejected God.” I didn’t feel better when I used to live my faith very well. I felt worse, with massive anxiety about sin and hell as well. I’m so lost.

**sly, I picked up on the anxiety thing as another poster did, and I can relate to you. I had a terrible time with scrupulosity and I remembered the passage in the Bible where it says that from those to whom more is given, from them more will be expected (my paraphrase off the top of my head). This felt like a big burden. It took some years of spiritual direction and prayer to overcome the burden of too much guilt in my growing-up years, which led me to have such fears of hell. My image of God was not of a loving God, because of my issues with authority figures. Something similar could be what’s bugging you, perhaps?

In this and some of your other posts, too, you use a gambling metaphor, what is at stake, or like getting to Heaven is dependent on a roll of the dice. You seem to have a fear that God is a bad guy playing a meaningless and arbitrary game. I wonder if reading St. Faustina and other works about the Divine Mercy might be reassuring to you. ****

Finally, to Debora - spoken in love - maybe try approaching the issue of missing Mass from the positive rather than the negative, and you might find you feel calmer and less defensive about your position regarding the sin’s gravity. Going round and round isn’t getting you or others anywhere, so why not attempt a different approach?

What I mean by that is, **do some reading about how awesome and wonderful the Mass is. **How a loving God would not want you to willingly miss it ever, so He, through the guidance of the 3rd Commandment and Mother Church, have emphasized the seriousness of attending in obedience regardless of other forces that might attempt to pull us in the other direction. Maybe this will help.

 

[felicerose]

(I don’t know if you are referring to me or not, but considering you posted this shortly after my post, I’m going to act on the possibility that you might be.)

First of all, I wasn’t coming up with “excuses” for not going to mass. I love how people try to distort what I say, no matter HOW clear I am.

Let me spell it out to all of you who are ripping me apart for saying I skipped mass maybe 2 or 3 times in my life:

I go to mass every Sunday. There have been a number of times in the 25 years of my life (and that number can be counted on one hand) when I have given in to my weak/sinful human nature and, for whatever inexcusable reason, skipped mass. Now, I know it was wrong, I went to confession for it. Ok? In my post, I was not, repeat, was NOT, trying to say that skipping mass was ok, or that I do it on a regular basis. All I was doing was giving my stupid, wrong, inexcusable reasons for skipping mass, in attempt to make a point. My point was this - I didn’t do it because I wanted to turn away from God, or because I wanted to reject God and His ways, or because I wanted to go to Hell. I did it because I was too lazy and gave in to temptation. Period.

…

What I was saying was, I don’t really understand why people say that when you commit a mortal sin, you are purposely doing it in an attempt to turn away from God and reject God. When someone is about to commit a mortal sin, though they know it is wrong, I don’t reckon they think to themselves “I am doing this because I h*te God and because I want to reject Him and go to Hell.” I used my story as an example. (although I’ve learned my lesson to never reveal anything wrong I’ve ever done in my life on this forum) I was making the point that, as weak human beings, with a natural tendency to sin, we sometimes make mistakes and give in to temptations and, in a moment of weakness, commit sins that are considered “mortal.” We’re not thinking about insulting God, we’re not even intentionally doing it. The way some people talk, it makes it sound like every time someone commits a mortal sin, they are intentionally trying to ruin their relationship with God, and I was just saying I don’t see that really being the case, and I don’t get that.

I was expressing my confusion and doubt, based on my own experiences with “mortal” sin, as well as giving my opinion on the issue. That is all.

Debora123, yes and no, I was referring to what you posted. Yes because you did say it and no, because you weren’t the only one and I was also including the others who had ‘excuses’ for deciding to ‘miss mass’ or whatever else it is.

I may have come off as a ‘strict and fundamentalist’ Catholic but that wasn’t my intention. But then you can believe whatever you want, just as everyone else on this forum has the right to believe whatever they want.

I spoke up because I feared that someone reading what you said might think it’s ‘okay’ to slip up once in a while because other people are doing it and the others didn’t naysay it.

What doesn’t seem to be getting through here is the need for people of God to feel sincere and honest with and about God. You see, if you miss Mass and then feel sorry about it later and repent, it’s okay. NOBODY’S PERFECT. I missed Mass this very weekend. There you go. But I’m feeling very sorry about it and I know I need to go to confession and do reparation. Will my confession and reparation be enough? I don’t know but I’ll do my utmost best in reparation.

But the danger is when you think it’s okay to slip up and then let it be. No reparation, no feeling sorry.

Otherwise I did not speak up to ‘rip you apart’. Just to make my opinion of the important details clear. Which is about knowing one has done something wrong and one repents & does reparation for it. But obviously, if one keeps repeating the same thing… the feeling sorry bit doesn’t quite sound honest’. It’s like telling your boss you came late because your car battery went flat. Only thing is, that battery went flat ten times this quarter.

The very fact that you’re still in this thread means you care. Even if you don’t like what is being said. And you mentioned you’d go for confession once a month. So that tells me that you do feel repentance. But I had to read the whole thread to get that idea about you. Anyone who reads just the first few posts you made would think that ‘if Debora123 believes this, then it’s okay for me to miss mass occasionally too.’ Can you see that danger? You go to confession but then this other person may not think it’s ‘serious’ enough for confession.

YES, I know you’re saying that surely one missed mass doesn’t merit going to Hell. But Debora123, that is NOT what I am seeing and what the others who don’t agree with you see. What we are worried about is … where is the aspect of repentance? Do you see?

Slywakka250,
Don’t worry too much about what ‘level’ gets you into hell and what ‘level’ gets you into heaven. Do your best to stay in harmony with God and I totally believe that God will keep you in His Love and Mercy. Some of us can fast for forty days and some of us can’t even last a full day. Do you know God doesn’t know that? What matters is that you want to try and you give it your best try.

I’m not a cathechist nor am I learned in the Catechism or theology of the Church. But I believe that we are all of us able to make judgments of our own. If what I say doesn’t make sense or is totally wrong, please set me straight.

Just remember this :
Luke 15:7 : I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

For me, the key word is always ‘repent’. Jesus came more for the sinners than for the righteous.

God bless.

 

[felicerose]

And, after reading what DavidKays said, I’d also like to say that one shouldn’t attend Mass if one has a problem with one’s relationship with God. What is the point in sitting in church while your heart is churning with upset and anger??

Fix that problem first. And fix it fast. Then Mass will be more meaningful for you. I doubt Jesus wants to unite with those who are not in harmony with Him.

But then again, I have personally gone through a stormy time with my faith. Attending Mass (even though I was in a state of sin) helped calm my pained heart. So it all depends on the person.

I think ‘forcing’ people to attend Mass (when they don’t believe in it or want to attend) is not right. There needs to be other intervention measures.

 

[LilyM]

And, after reading what DavidKays said, I’d also like to say that one shouldn’t attend Mass if one has a problem with one’s relationship with God. What is the point in sitting in church while your heart is churning with upset and anger??

Fix that problem first. And fix it fast. Then Mass will be more meaningful for you. I doubt Jesus wants to unite with those who are not in harmony with Him.

But then again, I have personally gone through a stormy time with my faith. Attending Mass (even though I was in a state of sin) helped calm my pained heart. So it all depends on the person.

I think ‘forcing’ people to attend Mass (when they don’t believe in it or want to attend) is not right. There needs to be other intervention measures.

So if you have a bad relationship with God you think you can fix it by a) running away from Him and b) specifically NOT doing something that He has commanded us to do?

On the contrary - Jesus said that those who labour and are heavy burdened (and that means in spirit as well as body) need to come to HIM for rest. And the best way we can do that is to join in worship of Him in Mass.

It doesn’t do good to run away from Him, nor to pile sin on top of sin (and it usually is our sins that cause problems in our relationship with God) by skipping Mass.

The commandments, including the one about honouring the Sabbath, aren’t optional, no matter how much we don’t feel like keeping them.

I can’t imagine you saying it would be OK to adulter if you were having problems with your spouse nor that it would be OK to bear false witness if you didn’t particuarly like the neighbour you were slandering.

What makes the commandment to honour the Sabbath (which we fulfil primarily by attending Mass) any different?

 

[petras52]

So I’d like to add a question to all this if I might. something that has always bothered me when Heaven and Hell are discussed. Why the giant cosmic game? Seriously. why? If God is all loving, powerful, knowing etc., why? I mean, and I don’t mean to sound blasphemous, what the heck is up with that? Is he sitting up there, pretending to play a board game until one day he decides he’s bored with it, announces the second coming, and finally things are as they should be? Can anyone honestly answer this? Is going to Hell like being the pawn on a giant chess board that gets axed by the knight for someones amusement?

Why eternal hell? Again, seriously. I’m going to burn in eternal Hell fire, forever and ever, for let’s say, using a condom while having sex with my wife, and sit next to a mass serial killer, or a Hitler, who’s killed and tortured thousands? Really, that’s pretty hard for me to believe. I’d even say it sounds like out right fantasy. Either that, or a system devised by man, in order to keep control of the general popluation, in a time when many still believed the world was flat.

Yeah, I realize what I just typed sounds harsh, and probably makes it sound as though I’m an “unbeliever”, but I’m not. I’m a very devout, God fearing man, who only gets frustrated and confused over issues such as this.

Bingo!! Well said!!

 

[davidv]

Bingo!! Well said!!

Only well said if one is attempting to lead others to hell.

The god portrayed by the poster in your response doesn’t exist. It isn’t even a good caricature of the God that the Church teaches us about. I would not believe in this god.

If this poster thinks this is some game that is being played, it is he/she who has made it a game. The Church hasn’t made it so.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Bingo!! Well said!!

Umm. there has been a lot said since that post was made, which refutes the points. Come back later and address those, if you will, and you might want to ‘take back’ your praise. . .

 

[steve_b]

I find Catholicism way different than the Orthodox Church in her understanding of sin and the effects that are derived from it. Catholicism seems to be more pre-occupied in sin and the consequences to it and if I can say the legalism that comes with it.

David,

Is the problem today, people being too pre-occupied with sin and its consequences? I think not.

Jesus establish the sacraments particularly Baptism, Reconciliation, Eucharist and sacrament of the sick precisely FOR preserving the soul from the consequences of sin.

I don’t understand where the legalism comment comes from?
DK:

I find more and more as I have been growing that many people and this is not only Catholics because some Orthodox can be this way too that we can be like the Phariseed of Jesus’ time. Instead of looking at the One who is Mercy we tend to want to judge very similarly like the Pharisee. More and more I see that human nature does not change for the better and people especially in Churches can act the same way as the Pharisees did and instead of Mercy they bring condemnation to themslves.

• The pharasees were called blind guides, hypocrits, whirewashed tombs etc etc because they didn’t paractice what they preached. But even at that, what did Jesus say to His listeners? Do whatever they tell you to do, because they sit on Moses seat, but don’t practice what they do.
• Who taught and warned more about hell than anyone in scripture? Jesus
• If one quotes specific scripture regarding the consequence for specific sin(s), that is NOT judging the sinner, it is a reminder to all of us how God wanted to let all of us know the consequences for specific sin(s). We don’t have to guess about it, we know from a reliable source. Therefore, at that point, it is up to a person’s free will once knowledge is imparted to them, to accept or reject the counsel.

DK:

Been on this website for 1 year now I have been exposed to alot and it is my observation that many people do not know really the Lord Jesus and His Message. Oh they know about Him or they know about the Catechism and they have knowledge in that area but consciecously they have not know directly to experience His Love and His Forgiveness and His Concern. All they seem to know is knowledge but with no direct experience. Now knowledge is not that bad. It is good but unless it is supplemented by direct experience with God it can be of no value to you. Look for instance at the devil. He has more knowledge of God then all the saints put together but he has no love. So all that knowledge and he still rebels before God. Do you know why the Saints are saints? Is it because of their knowledge of God? No! It is because of their heroic virtues!

Knowledge is a good thing. Refer to [2 Pet 1: 5-20]

Knowledge is second on the list of 7 qualities one needs to add to their faith in EVER INCREASING amounts in order NOT to be ineffective in knowing Jesus, and make ones election sure. ALL of those qualities Peter mentions, are necessary they are not optional. ALL of these qualities we must continue to increase. They can’t stagnate, or one WILL fall.
DK:

This is what seperates the Saints from us. We need to cultivate heroic virtue. Now I am Greek Orthodox and it is the tradition of my Church to taste and experience God’s Love from an early age. We do not have catechisms as such as the Catholic Church teaches because our Catechism comes from our direct experiences we have with our Lord and His Holy Mother. The best type of catechism is your own direct experiences which from an early age can make you fall in love with the Almighty.

what is this? orthodoxcatechism.org/ Notice the acknowlegments (forward) written by a Greek Orthodox prelate, archbishop of Toronto

.
DK:

This is why the Orthodox Church does not suscribe to teaching Catechism as done in the West but teaches Her Children to go into the " wilderness " and to engage with your enemy so as to conquer yourself that is your self-will and to emerge out as one in union with His Lord. This is how the Eastern Church approaches catechism and because of this we have a great arsenal of Saints that have helped us understand the great and deeper mysteries of God and Life.

seems there ARE various catechisms that are out there for Eastern Orthodox.
DK:

If anyone knows Father John Corapi a beautiful santly and holy Catholic priest, you will discover that he used the Eastern technique for the first 3 years of his conversion and look at the results it did for him.

You do know that there are Eastern Catholic Churches…right?
DK:

Going to Mass is no big deal unless you have prepared properly for it. Now I do not mean confessing this and confessing that. Is your relationship with God based on Love or some other?

Why do you make this either/or again? Sacraments ARE about relationship and love… On God’s terms.
DK:

I will like to see my Catholic brothers and sisters to see the Eastern approach more and explore it. I will like to see many more Fr.John Corapis because when a Catholic is in love with God boy are they IN LOVE! You have beautiful people and beautiful Saints and learning another technique that the Eastern Church has developed will make you all the better and stronger.

We ARE encouraged by the Eastern approach vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html & We DO have Eastern Catholics we share a rich heritage with. newadvent.org/cathen/05230a.htm

 

[Debora123]

Of course to say ‘it was just due to a moment of weakness’ is an attempt to excuse it, it’s nothing else. And if you did what you did knowing that it would hurt him seriously, then it’s an insult to him and his very real feelings that you would try to do so.

Lily, I disagree with your points. Get over it. Lol. Who are we to say we know what is in someone’s heart?? But if you wanna believe you can sit there and say you can be sure someone is going to Hell for committing a mortal sin while they knew it was a sin, fine. Believe what you want. I disagree. I think only God can say that. Peace out.

 

[Debora123]

Why eternal hell? Again, seriously. I’m going to burn in eternal Hell fire, forever and ever, for let’s say, using a condom while having sex with my wife, and sit next to a mass serial killer, or a Hitler, who’s killed and tortured thousands? Really, that’s pretty hard for me to believe. I’d even say it sounds like out right fantasy. Either that, or a system devised by man, in order to keep control of the general popluation, in a time when many still believed the world was flat.

Yeah, I realize what I just typed sounds harsh, and probably makes it sound as though I’m an “unbeliever”, but I’m not. I’m a very devout, God fearing man, who only gets frustrated and confused over issues such as this.

Well said, I feel the EXACT same way.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I think our society wants to trivialize these things because we don’t recognize what a great gift the Mass is or sexual purity is. We have to search more deeply into the mysteries of these things to fully appreciate why it is wrong to cheapen them.

Some don’t believe you could be sitting next to a serial killer in Hell for using a condom or missing Mass - but that’s taking a rather large gamble, IMO. And defending that position with anger - how is that building up the kingdom of God and edifying one’s neighbor and helping them get to Heaven?

Evil is a counterfeit - most easily recognized by what it lacks. This goes for attitudes. Again, spoken in love, not to attack.

 

[LilyM]

Lily, I disagree with your points. Get over it. Lol. Who are we to say we know what is in someone’s heart?? But if you wanna believe you can sit there and say you can be sure someone is going to Hell for committing a mortal sin while they knew it was a sin, fine. Believe what you want. I disagree. I think only God can say that. Peace out.

Yes, and He HAS said it, through the Church which He instituted to speak for Him. I never said I am sure that anyone is going to Hell - that’s not my place, nor even the Church’s, which is why they don’t name individuals as being in Hell.

I would say, as Jesus did and the Church does, that such a person can certainly be sure that they will go to Hell if they don’t repent. Why are you so intent on rebutting my point if you’re so convinced that what I say can’t possibly apply to you?

Where would we be if Jesus or the Apostles had said to those who disagreed with them ‘fine, believe what you want, it’s cool’? Their attitude, which we must emulate, was the complete opposite - till their dying breaths they kept talking, kept teaching, kept trying to reach everyone without exception, even those who vehemently disagreed with them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think our society wants to trivialize these things because we don’t recognize what a great gift the Mass is or sexual purity is. We have to search more deeply into the mysteries of these things to fully appreciate why it is wrong to cheapen them.

Some don’t believe you could be sitting next to a serial killer in Hell for using a condom or missing Mass - but that’s taking a rather large gamble, IMO. And defending that position with anger - how is that building up the kingdom of God and edifying one’s neighbor and helping them get to Heaven?

Evil is a counterfeit - most easily recognized by what it lacks. This goes for attitudes. Again, spoken in love, not to attack.

We’re a very sophisticated, literate society. We are so ‘knowledgeable’ and so ‘tolerant’ and so very, very clever. We just ‘know’ that God (the god we have erected in OUR image and likeness of course) couldn’t possibly be so ‘medieval’ as to actually have ‘black-and-white’ **rules. **

I mean, come on. We are so ‘adult’ now. We don’t believe in things like the devil. We have psychoanalyzed Scripture and we’ve emasculated and euphemized and rationalized it all. We preach a gospel of "feel good, feel ‘love’, and relax’. . .because God is only going to punish ‘bad’ people and we are not **bad. We can’t be bad. Because we’re too RATIONAL to be bad. We’re too SMART to ‘risk’ hell, and when we die, we are just going to ‘choose’ heaven. **

**And the few ‘real bad guys’ like Hitler prove our point, we think, because NOBODY except a MONSTER like that deserves hell. (And even there, secretly lots of us think that after enough ‘time’, they’ll repent and God will give them a ‘get out of hell free’ card.) **

**What a Panglossian attitude. For all the ‘we’re looking at the REAL WORLD’ that they claim to be preaching, that world is a chimera. It’s based not on Scripture, not on Catholic teaching, not on the Magesterium, but solely on ‘modern’ fallible ‘human’ rationalization. **

And for all the "Well only GOD knows, not you bigots’ that they usually throw in at the end, you can tell that they are convinced that god totally supports them. And of course, their ‘god’ WOULD. . .because that is a false god made to reflect what people want him to do or say. . .as opposed to the real God, before whom WE are supposed to conform our will to HIS superior understanding. . .

**It would be funny if it weren’t sad. The people who nearly break their backs patting themselves for their ‘loving tolerance’ and understanding (while preaching the modern gospel of ‘you aren’t CAPABLE of real mortal sin’) are actually far more intolerant and clueless than the ‘blue meanies’ who gently and persistently insist on following God’s REAL teaching which is lovingly preserved and taught through the Catholic Church. That real teaching is not the frightening "God is out to get you and you are steeped in sin and you’re always sinning’ that we are accused of promulgating, either. It is rather, UNREPENTED mortal sin, freely chosen, will be the means by which an individual will choose hell. Not “a mortal sin, repented and confessed”. Not, “a mortal sin but the person didn’t fully realize it at the time”. **

An UNREPENTED mortal sin, freely chosen and understood, if UNREPENTED AT THE TIME OF DEATH, is a vehicle through which an individual would freely choose and understand that he or she is rejecting God for all eternity. . .and that sin and its subsequent consequence of rejection would continue for all eternity.

Thus eternal CONSEQUENCE (which happens to be a punishment because it IS a consequence of the freely chosen action) of hell is the natural result of ETERNAL MORTAL SIN.

 

[slywakka250]

3DOCTORS:

God is infinitely saddened by the people in Hell, since they truly knew what they were doing and rejected Him and His love. If there are mitigating factors, His Divine Mercy will place them in Purgatory and they will eventually reach Heaven. Does this help?

The idea of even ONE rational being in an eternal fiery torture chamber, including Satan, is terrifying to me, and a huge obstacle for me.

3DOCTORS:

In this and some of your other posts, too, you use a gambling metaphor, what is at stake, or like getting to Heaven is dependent on a roll of the dice. You seem to have a fear that God is a bad guy playing a meaningless and arbitrary game

rotlex:

So I’d like to add a question to all this if I might. something that has always bothered me when Heaven and Hell are discussed. Why the giant cosmic game? Seriously. why? If God is all loving, powerful, knowing etc., why? I mean, and I don’t mean to sound blasphemous, what the heck is up with that??

I will attempt to explain why I refer to our eternal destiny as a sordid game or a roll of the dice.

let y = the number of people in heaven

let x = the number of people in hell

let p = the total human population that has lived on the earth

(so x + y = p, as everyone is either in heaven or hell, and not both)

Imagine you are observing our completed universe at the end of time (the “final judgement” has occured and every human person is eternally fixed in heaven or hell) as an outside observer, like a scientist trying to discover why things are the way they are.

Let’s say you select a randon person P1 from population p.

The probability that P1 is in hell equals x / p

The probablity that P1 is in heaven is y / p

Now, the probability that randommly selected P1 is myself, slywakka250, is 1 / p

Therefore, the probability that I, P1 am in hell is x / p.

Furthermore the probability Q that the observer who observes one randomly selected human, actually observes ME in hell, is (x / p * 1 / p ) = x / p^2​

I am simply terrified to live in a universe where the probability Q (the probability that one randomly selected human is Me in hell) is greater than 0.

But hell is freely choosen right? probability has nothing to do with it! right?

Yes, but this doesn’t tell the whole story, and is unconvincing for me.

My argument is that there must neccessarily be some causual factor to explain why the number of people in hell is x, and not say x + 1, or x - 1, or even 0.

This causual factor can be compared to a physical law. The law of gravity says that objects with mass attract one another. Notice the law of gravity is in effect even when the objects in question are rational beings with free will.

Now, our free will is subject to the spiritual laws of the universe. For instance we can’t use our own free will to manipuate the free will of somebody else. Now, As each human uses his or her free will to make a choice for or against God, it is the case that y people choose God and x people ultimately reject him. Unless we want to consider the values of x and y to be randomly generated somehow, we must postuate a perhaps probabilistic (if not probabilistic, directly willed by God) causual factor, operating on the existential level underneath our free will, which works to determine the distribution of x and y.
The probability y/x (the number in heaven vs the number in hell) represents the difficulty of getting to heaven, and as I see it, the “risk” God took on us when he created us and subjected us to this horrible game. For we have very minimal information about the value of y / x; We have no idea if the universe is easy or hard. We can’t determine if most are in heaven or most are in hell.

Especially if the universe is very hard, (which I’ll say it is if > 40 % are in hell), I feel I am justly angry at God for creating me in a universe where the odds are stacked against me!! Its just awful feeling. Where is the mercy and love of God in all of this? I know he loves me, but God can’t have it both ways. He can’t love every human person infinitely while at the same time creating a universe in which he FOREKNOWS via his omniscience that x people will burn for eternity. God’s outside of time, so when he created the universe, he pretty much willed x people directly into hell (yes through x freely willed decisions which he forknew) , from his perspective.​

Debora123:

Well said, I feel the EXACT same way.

Debora, I was really sad and despairing reading this exchange here as many posters felt the need to hammer home to you that you just may well have been on the brink of hell when you missed those Masses, had you died in the seconds, minutes, or hours, before you repented or ran to the confessional. They are trying to bring you to a “realization” that the universe is much more dangerous than you previously thought. You didn’t know you were so close to going to hell when you missed those Mass did you? the universe is a perilous and dangerous place, and God put me right into it with “love.”​

Just think of all the non-Catholics, non-Christians, happily living there lives, completely oblivous to the danger of hell. I want to be one of them, but I’m trapped here in Catholicism, with all the terminology and carefully defined lists of mortal sins, requirements for forgiveness, etc. I just want out! I can’t take it anymore! How I am I supposed to pray when all the Church seems to be about is getting me salvation, (i.e getting me out of hell!) I dont’ want that, I want for hell to never have existed in the first place!!!*

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sly, hon.

People pretty carefully explained to Debora that she was not going to be ‘thrown into hell unknowingly’ if she missed Mass.

Hon, listen. **UNREPENTED MORTAL SIN AT DEATH is how a person CHOOSES hell. **

**NOT a mortal sin committed (and possibly almost immediately regretted even if the person has not yet been to sacramental confession). **

Too many people are making a totally unwarranted jump into claiming that somehow any mortal sin automatically guarantees a person a one-way trip to the hot place. But it is only UNREPENTED MORTAL SIN AT DEATH that could guarantee that. Any other mortal sin we have committed, provided we are alive now (and reading this I pretty much think you are), can be repented and forgiven!!! Even if you sin this minute, you could regret it the next, make a perfect act of contrition, (or even an imperfect one), and start repairing your relationship with God. God will NEVER turn a repentent sinner away.

God is NOT a game player. He doesn’t throw poor people into situations which almost invariably ‘entice’ them to sin so that He can swoop in with a bus accident or something and chortle, "Hell for YOU, you sinner!"

Rather, God gives us incredible graces and helps. Focus on those.

God Himself. The Church. Scripture. The Mass. Sacraments. Prayer. Other people.

**It’s amazing! There are so many helps for us. God is always there; we have only to communicate with Him through prayer --spoken, written, ‘rote’ or ‘off the cuff’. The Church is there with so many helps (catechisms, teachers, priests). Our family and friends are there. You know that people here on this forum are praying up a storm for you! Scripture is there to be God’s written word. The sacraments give us nourishment (The Eucharist), and support (Penance). God has given us unending, limitless ‘help’; all we need to do is open ourselves to that help. **

**Just imagine how you’d feel if you were walking through a pleasant park knowing that at the end was heaven. If you didn’t have some kind of road map, or people who knew the way, you could get lost and find yourself in a lot of unexpected obstacles or even dangerous spots in the park that you didn’t see at first. Those ‘rules’ are out there to be your road map, to be your guide and help!! **

**Think of the Church’s ‘rules’ as being HELPS instead of hindrances. Think of them as being an oasis when you’ve been stumbling through a desert. Think of them as being a hospital when you’ve been hurt and are looking for healing. Think of them as guides to keep you from going ‘wrong’ instead of ‘traps’. **

 

[steve_b]

Well said, I feel the EXACT same way.

I noticed, rotlex posted just once on this thread and hasn’t been back. But the question raised is one that gets asked by many and commented by many with answers at total odds with each other.

I’m just passing on information.

Q:
It seems unfair that God would damn to hell someone who lives in a state of grace his entire life, yet commits a mortal sin at the end of his life and dies in that state. Wouldn’t his righteous life outweigh the one final sin?

”
A:
You’re looking at this issue all wrong. It’s incorrect to think of sin and virtue as “outweighing” each other, at least in the case of someone who dies in either the state of grace or the state of mortal sin. At death your disposition toward God, whether friendship or rebellion, is fixed for eternity. You are unable thereafter to “change your mind.” That’s why the damned in hell cannot repent and become God’s friends. Likewise, the blessed in heaven are in no danger of rebelling against God and losing their salvation.

Second, the question of “fairness” is irrelevant to this issue. God is all just and all merciful. During our lives he extends his mercy to us, repeatedly allowing us to repent and turn from sin and thus shields us from the eternal consequences of our sins. But at death his justice demands that we be recompensed on the basis of our relationship to him.

The Lord explains that fairness is not the issue:
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die.

Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is not just.” O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God; so turn, and live. (Ez 18:21-32; cf. Mt 20:1-15)
One needs to understand the gravity of mortal sin. By committing mortal sin a person implicitly rejects God and the entire life of holiness he has led up to that point. By spurning that life he spurns the reward he would have gotten as a result of it. It is his own fault if he dies in a state of alienation from God and his reward.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/repentance

Also

"Does anyone actually go to hell anymore? I mean, leaving aside the usual suspects—Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and (just as soon as we can conveniently dispatch him) Osama bin Laden—is there a sufficient number of reprobates around even to justify the existence of such a place? And, really, just how wicked does one have to be to qualify? Surely it is not even thinkable that good, respectable Catholics might take themselves there. What are we to make of hell? More to the point, what does the Church make of hell?’

for the answer:
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea1.asp

 

[slywakka250]

Thanks so much for anyone who has taken time to respond to my posts here. I really appreciate it.

That said, I have spent all night at work thinking about hell. I have been unable to do anything today except read this thread and think about hell. This is very unhealthy and I need to take a break from thinking about Catholicism, and hope I don’t die in the meantime, until I get these issues resolved

These obsessive thoughts have been going on for almost 2 years now. I’m really stuck!! and I just keep doing mortal sins as well, because I just can’t handle obeying God, and worrying about all of this madness

Somebody mentioned I go to a therapist/doctor? I have been to a few, (I am on medications for anxiety/ocd/panic) and when I tell them the things I am saying here, they assure me that in fact hell doesn’t exist, and that my fear is irrational. Well according to many of you here I should be afraid especially if I continue to sin!!

I haven’t been able to sit through a whole Mass in months, because I am so angry at God; especially when the priest prays in the Eucharistic prayer, “save us from ‘final damnation’” I run out of the Church at that point in horror and disgust.

However, I do want to receive Communion this Christmas!! I’m going to try to go to confession sometime this week. I have a long list of sins, but I feel like my confession isn’t any good because I have soooo many doubts about the faith, and am so angry at God. Can I still go to confession, and confess my sins, even though I feel no love for God and have tons of doubts about the faith??

I want to experience Christ this Christmas.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Thanks so much for anyone who has taken time to respond to my posts here. I really appreciate it.

That said, I have spent all night at work thinking about hell. I have been unable to do anything today except read this thread and think about hell. This is very unhealthy and I need to take a break from thinking about Catholicism, and hope I don’t die in the meantime, until I get these issues resolved

I was thinking the same thing - especially as regards spending too much time thinking about Hell. I wouldn’t recommend missing Mass more than you can help. But you need to find mental peace and I don’t know in that case - that would be a question for a priest to answer.

I’m not a priest nor a mental health professional. But I have OCD, and I’ve had scrupulosity that at one point made me consider leaving the Church. Your fear of hell is something I’ve experienced, as well as several of your questionings. I do know that our minds can “pour gasoline on the fire,” so to speak. We keep returning to the things that are upsetting us (such as speculation about hell), like picking at a wound that needs to heal.

These obsessive thoughts have been going on for almost 2 years now. I’m really stuck!! and I just keep doing mortal sins as well, because I just can’t handle obeying God, and worrying about all of this madness

Somebody mentioned I go to a therapist/doctor? I have been to a few, (I am on medications for anxiety/ocd/panic) and when I tell them the things I am saying here, they assure me that in fact hell doesn’t exist, and that my fear is irrational. Well according to many of you here I should be afraid especially if I continue to sin!!

Is there any priest you can trust right now? Or Scrupulous Anonymous at www.liguori.org, or the OCD/Scrupulosity support group on CAF? IMO, a mental health professional is trying to help you be less afraid, and maybe they don’t personally believe in Hell, but they should respect the beliefs of a client’s religion. Have you thought of finding a Catholic therapist who could help you walk through your fears and issues without denying Church doctrine, but at the same time helping you focus on God’s mercy?

Also, did you know - and again, I’ve just heard about this - that your priest could help you with certain dispensations since you are in such a high state of anxiety that you are possibly incapable of making sound moral decisions until you feel better? This is not to put you down, you are obviously highly intelligent (there’s no way I could comprehend math the way you do!) - but you need some kind of spiritual breathing room, so to speak.

**I haven’t been able to sit through a whole Mass in months, because I am so angry at God; especially when the priest prays in the Eucharistic prayer, “save us from ‘final damnation’” I run out of the Church at that point in horror and disgust. **

I can imagine you would be really angry if you are feeling the level of terror you describe. Would you believe me if I said "been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and survived? And that my prayers will be with you that you can sort this all out and heal?

However, I do want to receive Communion this Christmas!! I’m going to try to go to confession sometime this week. I have a long list of sins, but I feel like my confession isn’t any good because I have soooo many doubts about the faith, and am so angry at God. Can I still go to confession, and confess my sins, **even though I feel no love for God and have tons of doubts about the faith??
**
I want to experience Christ this Christmas.

It would really help the priest if you could clue him in to what’s going on with you so that he can tailor his counsel to your needs. If you could get an appointment - difficult this close to Christmas, but I’ll pray that you will be able to - because you need enough time to go into this or the priest may give a short simple answer and you may feel more confused.

Hope some of this helps. Feel free to PM me if you’d like. Because I wouldn’t blame you if you chose not to be on this thread for the reasons you’ve stated. To take a breather. :coolinoff:
Praying for you!

 

[BlueShadow123]

I think that its pretty harsh too. But its a choice. I chose not to go there. And for the people who have not heard the word of God, I’m sure he will excuse them and not make them go to hell.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Q:
It seems unfair that God would damn to hell someone who lives in a state of grace his entire life, yet commits a mortal sin at the end of his life and dies in that state. Wouldn’t his righteous life outweigh the one final sin?

This is theoretically possible, I suppose, but fortunately quite unlikely in real life. A person who was in a state of grace and growing in grace his/her entire life would be that much stronger spiritually and that much more able to resist such a temptation.

Deathbed conversions are more likely (and are cause for rejoicing!) than this scenario.

In this life, we are learning love. God is love. Living in love isn’t just something we do outwardly, though that part is necessary. But love also shapes us inwardly if we are truly being guided by it. We are letting God mold us into citizens of Heaven, who, when we arrive there, will recognize it as home, and fit in there and be happy there because we are among our brothers and sisters the Saints and in the love of God who created us.

If we start being petty, taking the attitude of “How much can I get away with and still get to Heaven?” we are going at it totally backwards. It’s shortsighted and absurd to play the “but I only committed one teensy-weensy little mortal sin, how can God be such a meanie” card.

**Love is generous and gives without counting the cost. ** Anything less is counterfeit, as I said in an earlier post. You can recognize it by what it lacks. It’s putting limits on love. Then the next step is that we try to tell God how He should love us, what His rules should be, how He should enforce them. Hell is a lack, too. A big one.

And there need be no artificially contrived conflict between love and justice. That’s like that tired old “The Church is full of hypocrites” argument. I’ve said it elsewhere but I’ll say it again. The Church is not full of hypocrites. We can always scoot together and make room for one more! A hypocrite is someone who doesn’t practice what he/she preaches. Which we are all guilty of at one time or another.

But we can be forgiven so easily. We simply have to have contrition and confess our sins. Sure, it’s not fun. But think a minute. What if we didn’t have that option? What if it was - well, you blew it. Too bad. You’re doomed. That would be the truly bleak picture.