Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[steve_b]

Fundamentally, I am concerned with discovering why it is that while one person chooses God, another person rejects Him. It is such a strange phenomenon to me that us humans divide into two such radically opposed eternal states of being.

For sure, Free will is a radical gift from God.
s:

Free will is only free because it is not determined by any outside forces. It acts entirely on its own.

The outside force is grace. It’s always there, but yes, free will can choose to respond or not to it.
s:

(God predestines and directly wills the number of blessed and reprobate)

God predestines no one to hell.

He knows in advance what a person will choose. He doesn’t force choices or force someone to be a reprobate. He predestines what He knows will happen.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/600.htm
s:

A random sequence of numbers? (free will is essentially a random event; if this is the case, God gambled on the result, because he creates the universe the same way every time, and man chooses the outcome, God is bound by man 's decision here, for better or for worse i.e. it could have been the case that ZERO people choose heaven (although very unlikely, we have no reason to assume this couldn’t happen given the random numbers))

Clusters of numbers?? (perhaps the freely willed decicions of a few people, (perhaps like Mary and Joseph, or World Leaders) greatly influence the population for or against God to a greater or lessor extent for the rest of time)​

–
Does anybody see what I am getting at here??

Precisely how is the final count determined? is our universe easy or hard? Why do x people go to heaven and y people go to hell??? WHAT forces are working to make the final distribution what it is, instead of something else???

2 Pet 1:

*5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. **10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. *

While God knows who will and who won’t use their will properly, we individually don’t know that. God doesn’t sabbotage anyone. He gives everyone a chance. NO ONE in the end can say I was sandbagged. But as you can see, there are conditions that must be met. People have choices.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Eve ate a piece of fruit and shared it with her husband. All of mankind was stained with a sin nature after that “little offense”.

Isn’t the reason why Jesus came to die for a group of redeemed humanity to reconcile man to Himself because of that “little sin” od eating a piece of fruit

It is little in itself (just as eating a morsel of steak on Good Friday is little in itself) but grave because of the lack of obedience required by God.

People just do not understand the infinite worth of Christ and how offensive the smallest sin is toward Him and until they do they will not have the possibility of entering into His kingdom.

This is true, but it doesn’t change the nature of mortal and venial sins, which are not arbitrary but really flow from the nature of God himself.

 

[vz71]

This does not answer my question. I am asking WHY is it that x humans love and y humans NOT-love. If its not random, if its not directly willed by God, then how is it determined???

Each person, acting with their free will chooses what they will and will not love.
Some choose God, others choose self.

I do not see how that can be so confusing.

 

[3DOCTORS]

slywakka, I just keep going back to wishing I could convince you to lay off the math and the overthinking. Is the obsessing helping you to have peace of mind or is it feeding the monster?

I say this out of love and concern, not meaning to sound sarcastic or anything. People who know me know I tend to overthink things quite a bit also! It takes one to know one, and I wish I could help you! :hug3:

Have you had any testing for OCD or perhaps Asperger’s? I ask this because it seems that there is emotion behind your questioning - anxiety and/or confusion, bewilderment, and ultimately anger - that you are having a hard time processing in your mind.

You seem so focused on the math and probability and mechanics of who goes to Hell or doesn’t. It’s like you’re trying to deal with your own feelings about your eternal fate (and others’) but doing so with endless intellectualizing - which may be how your mind ticks, but it’s hard to approach spiritual matters that way.

If the spiritual matters are hard to comprehend, well, first of all, realize they are for everyone - and see if there is someone who can help you look at it a bit more from the heart. The head is necessary - some people don’t use it enough and fall for sentimental nonsense, but I wonder if you need a little more balance toward the heart side?

I’m not sure if I’m being totally coherent here, I’m just tossing out ideas for you to consider. Like maybe to try different approaches since the ones you’ve been trying seem to lead you around in a vicious circle?

 

[davidv]

OK.

So the frame this in my terms, you are saying when faced with the temptations and trials of everyday life, y humans will Love, and x humans will not-Love.

This does not answer my question. I am asking WHY is it that x humans love and y humans NOT-love. If its not random, if its not directly willed by God, then how is it determined???

Actually the choice to love or not is faced by each of us numerous times each day.

The decision to love, or not, is directly willed by those faced with a moral choice. Will one love or not? It is not anymore complicated than that. There are many things influencing the choice, but ultimately the one making the choice, chooses. Their choice will either be moral or immoral.

Any and all of the vices will lead one think they know better than God, or the ones God left in charge to speak for Him.

 

[slywakka250]

slywakka, I just keep going back to wishing I could convince you to lay off the math and the overthinking. Is the obsessing helping you to have peace of mind or is it feeding the monster?

I say this out of love and concern, not meaning to sound sarcastic or anything. People who know me know I tend to overthink things quite a bit also! It takes one to know one, and I wish I could help you! :hug3:

Have you had any testing for OCD or perhaps Asperger’s? I ask this because it seems that there is emotion behind your questioning - anxiety and/or confusion, bewilderment, and ultimately anger - that you are having a hard time processing in your mind.

You seem so focused on the math and probability and mechanics of who goes to Hell or doesn’t. It’s like you’re trying to deal with your own feelings about your eternal fate (and others’) but doing so with endless intellectualizing - which may be how your mind ticks, but it’s hard to approach spiritual matters that way.

If the spiritual matters are hard to comprehend, well, first of all, realize they are for everyone - and see if there is someone who can help you look at it a bit more from the heart. The head is necessary - some people don’t use it enough and fall for sentimental nonsense, but I wonder if you need a little more balance toward the heart side?

I’m not sure if I’m being totally coherent here, I’m just tossing out ideas for you to consider. Like maybe to try different approaches since the ones you’ve been trying seem to lead you around in a vicious circle?

Do you mean to tell me that everything is ok, and I really have nothing to worry about?

Regarding following my heart, my heart tells me that hell does not really exist, that God loves me very much, and that I am going to heaven. My heart tells me that I have all the time I need for spiritual development, perhaps many lifetimes via reincarnation. When I follow my heart, I feel that evil does not really exist, and what some perceive as sin is just ignorance and misfortune in the evolution of man.

In my heart, I am at peace, because there is no fear. Just love. no hell. just joy in existence.

Thanks for reminding me of this place in my heart. I rest here, happy.

I am truly comforted, until somebody starts talking about hell and damnation again.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Do you mean to tell me that everything is ok, and I really have nothing to worry about?

Regarding following my heart, my heart tells me that hell does not really exist, that God loves me very much, and that I am going to heaven. My heart tells me that I have all the time I need for spiritual development, perhaps many lifetimes via reincarnation. When I follow my heart, I feel that evil does not really exist, and what some perceive as sin is just ignorance and misfortune in the evolution of man.

In my heart, I am at peace, because there is no fear. Just love. no hell. just joy in existence.

Thanks for reminding me of this place in my heart. I rest here, happy.

I am truly comforted, until somebody starts talking about hell and damnation again.

Okay, maybe I didn’t realize that that was where you would go with that. :ehh: But I’m not going to start talking about hell and damnation because I know you’re not up to hearing about it, so there’s no point in simply upsetting you further right now.

I will pray for you because the reincarnation thing is not Catholic teaching. :nope: I’m sorry if this is painful for you to hear but I would be doing you no favor to pretend that it was. I pray that someday you will be able to accept the true Catholic teaching but without the fear that plagues you about it at this time. God bless.:sad_bye:

 

[stevealbert99]

I completely agree. Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I would rather go to the movies than go to church”, and on the way to the movies I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that for skipping mass one sunday, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people? I don’t buy that for a second.

 

[Debora123]

I completely agree. Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I would rather go to the movies than go to church”, and on the way to the movies I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that for skipping mass one sunday, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people? I don’t buy that for a second.

I second that.

 

[Debora123]

This message is for slywakka250. Well, really for everyone.

Our Lady of Medjugorje told her visionaries this about the people who go to Purgatory: “Those who go to Purgatory are those who prayed and believed only occasionally – they were filled with doubt, they were not certain that God exists. They did not know how to pray while on earth, or if they did know how, they did not pray”

medjugorje.com/medjugorje/heaven-purgatory-hell.html

She didn’t tell them that it’s ONLY the “almost perfect” people who go to purgatory. Look at the words used: “filled with doubt,” “believed only occasionally,” “did not pray.”

It seems that by most of you guys’ standards, those type of people would go straight to Hell! Yet even THEY are saved (according to Our Lady). There are people out there who are good, faithful people… who pray, who believe, who genuinely try to live moral lives. Those people make occasional slips and fall into temptation at times too. We all make mistakes. Someone who is a faithful believer and attends church every Sunday and lives a moral life, can be caught in a moment of weakness and make a bad decision one Sunday not to go to mass - for a silly reason (laziness, wanted to do something else, overslept, etc etc). That same person can get in a car shortly thereafter and die before having the chance to reflect much on his actions and fully repent. Does that mean that person goes to Hell because of that sin?? Of course not!

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Article 1. Whether by Divine justice an eternal punishment is inflicted on sinners?

Objection 2. Further, of two mortal sins one is greater than the other. and therefore one should receive a greater punishment than the other. But no punishment is greater than eternal punishment, since it is infinite. Therefore eternal punishment is not due to every sin; and if it is not due to one, it is due to none, since they are not infinitely distant from one another. — Reply to Objection 2. The degree of intensity in the punishment corresponds to the degree of gravity in the sin; wherefore mortal sins unequal in gravity will receive a punishment unequal in intensity but equal in duration.

Further, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. v, 5), punishment is meted according to the dignity of the person sinned against, so that a person who strikes one in authority receives a greater punishment than one who strikes anyone else. Now whoever sins mortally sins against God, Whose commandments he breaks, and Whose honor he gives another, by placing his end in some one other than God. But God’s majesty is infinite. Therefore whoever sins mortally deserves infinite punishment; and consequently it seems just that for a mortal sin a man should be punished for ever.

The problem with transgressing a precept is not merely a minor act based on a seemingly insignificant intent, but it is based on grace. Grace upon grace from God in our very existence, to all we have and are, as well as down to the Mercy of God sustaining us at every moment despite our daily sins which merit immediate retribution.

At every moment grace sustains us and in the sacraments infinite Grace is offered to us, but we dispose ourselves to turn from accepting it. Our minds can only grasp little of this truth and some can grasp none (apparently) so we base Gods Justice on our concept of fairness. It isn’t fair, it is Mercy. Fairness, which is Justice, gets us what we deserve, and our lack of study, lack of reverence, and our lack of acceptance of His Grace will have eternity to wail and gnash our teeth over this. That is if we fail to ask for His Mercy.

When we make the decision to miss Mass, there is a lifetime of graces squandered that disposed us to put the force of will to this act. When we have a good reason for missing Mass, it is this grace leads us to be sad for having to be apart from Our Lord. It is also the squandered graces that make us fail to accurately judge the arrogance of presumption that we know better than what God has revealed to us.

James2:10 *Now whosoever shall keep the whole law but offend in one point, is become guilty of all". – Haydock Commentary: …that such a man may be said to be guilty of all, because by one deadly sin he acts against charity, (which is the love of God and of our neighbour) upon which depends the whole law and all its precepts; so that by breaking one precept, he loseth the habit of charity, and maketh the keeping, or not breaking of all the rest, unprofitable to him.

 

[vz71]

I completely agree. Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I would rather go to the movies than go to church”, and on the way to the movies I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that for skipping mass one sunday, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people? I don’t buy that for a second.

Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I am going to tell God NO”, and while telling God NO I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that rejecting God, even once without repenting, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people?
Yes, I buy that.

 

[Brooklyn]

I second that.

Debra123, you do realize that you are seconding an opinion posted by an atheist, someone who does not believe in God. I would not even try to convince him because he has rejected God, and there is no point. But as stated in Earnest Bunbury’s (love that play!) excellent post, missing Mass is squandering graces. If you wake up on a Sunday morning, and decide you just don’t feel like going to Mass, you are telling God that your own feelings, comfort and wishes are more important to you than he is, that you have decided to make up your own rules and become your own Magisterium. You have, in effect, rejected God, and therefore you have chosen hell. And unless you repent, that is where you will be.

As far as the quote from Medjugorje is concerned that you have posted, remember that this is not an approved apparition. Even with approved apparitions, we are not required to accept the teaching. And this particular quote does seem to conflict with our Lord, who said many are called and few are chosen, and strait and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that enter in. You may wish to disregard that, but these are the words of Christ, and I think they need to be taken seriously.

 

[stevealbert99]

Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I am going to tell God NO”, and while telling God NO I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that rejecting God, even once without repenting, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people?
Yes, I buy that.

well then you have been brainwashed into believing false scare tactics, and i pity you

 

[stevealbert99]

Say that missing mass is like skipping a court date, while the crimes of Hitler and Stalin are just what they are, murdering millions of people. Say the judge (god) gives Hitler and Stalin the death penalty (hell for all eternity) for these crimes. Should you get the death penalty as well, because you skipped your court date? No, you might go to jail for a while, but the punishment would not be the same.

 

[Debora123]

Debra123, you do realize that you are seconding an opinion posted by an atheist, someone who does not believe in God. I would not even try to convince him because he has rejected God, and there is no point. But as stated in Earnest Bunbury’s (love that play!) excellent post, missing Mass is squandering graces. If you wake up on a Sunday morning, and decide you just don’t feel like going to Mass, you are telling God that your own feelings, comfort and wishes are more important to you than he is, that you have decided to make up your own rules and become your own Magisterium. You have, in effect, rejected God, and therefore you have chosen hell. And unless you repent, that is where you will be.

As far as the quote from Medjugorje is concerned that you have posted, remember that this is not an approved apparition. Even with approved apparitions, we are not required to accept the teaching. And this particular quote does seem to conflict with our Lord, who said many are called and few are chosen, and strait and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that enter in. You may wish to disregard that, but these are the words of Christ, and I think they need to be taken seriously.

From what I have learned as a Christian, it is NOT our place to say who has and has not “rejected God.” Rejecting God is more complicated and deep than one action alone. It’s about what is in that person’s heart, and none of us can say or pretend to know. Leaving the judging up to God is part of showing Him respect as the ultimate and only just judge.

You say this: “you are telling God that your own feelings, comfort and wishes are more important to you than he is, that you have decided to make up your own rules and become your own Magisterial.” No offense meant, but quite honestly It blows my MIND how any of you human beings, who sin on a daily, or almost daily basis, can EVER say that you know this is what’s going on in someone else’s head. It really does blow my mind, and it drives me crazy. I read someone saying that, and to me it’s like you’re trying to play God here. Sure, it could very well mean they had those intentions, but it could also mean they did not! Bottom line here is, we don’t know! Not everyone who commits mortal sins has those intentions in their heart!! And we have NO WAY, absolutely NO WAY of knowing.

We cannot say to another or about another ,“oh you (insert sin here) so you have rejected God, and you want to be your own magisteriam and you are going to Hell.” I mean, what in the world is that?? Who says that?? Last I checked, only God can say that personally about each separate individual regarding each specific sin.

And about agreeing with the atheists (oh no how dare I agree with an Atheist on anything!! lol) - so, because he’s an atheist I cannot agree with a single word he says? I felt this way about the issue before he said anything about it!

And sure, the incident with Our Lady of M has not been approved, but it has not been disapproved either. I believe it happened, along with the many Catholics who travel a great distance to see the site where the apparitions took place. JPII hasn’t officially been approved by the Church as a saint, but I believe he’s a saint. Just because it hasn’t been approved, doesn’t mean it isn’t so. I don’t believe those kids were lying about what the Virgin Mary said to them, and if you really study the whole issue, you’ll find it to be very unlikely (I’ll say impossible) that it was all made up.

And yes, we’re not required to believe the teachings of apparitions, but why in the world would Our Lady give a false message to the world? We’re not required to take random quotes from the bible and believe those either (like you have done). The entire bible isn’t Church doctrine.

Quotes from the bible can be interpreted many different ways. That’s why as Catholics, we don’t take the bible word per word, like the protestants do. Nowhere in the catechism or in any Church document does it say that as Catholics, we should believe that most people go to Hell. And besides, Jesus never mentioned purgatory, does that mean we don’t believe in purgatory? And He never explicitly said most people go to Hell. He says the road to Hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow. If we’re gonna take what He said literally (that’s a big IF), it still IS on par with what the Virgin said. She said more people go to Hell verses straight to Heaven. The bible doesn’t mention purgatory (where Our Lady of M claims most people go) and that’s the missing link.

1. Nonetheless, it is my educated opinion (based on several things, including common sense and my understanding of God) that a good, faithful person who skips one mass for a silly reason and then dies the the same day won’t necessarily go to Hell for it. That is my opinion.
2. But the definite truth is this: We don’t know. It is God’s job, and we can’t and shouldn’t claim to know. That is truth.

 

[Brooklyn]

From what I have learned as a Christian, it is NOT our place to say who has and has not “rejected God.” Rejecting God is more complicated and deep than one action alone. It’s about what is in that person’s heart

, and none of us can say or pretend to know. Leaving the judging up to God is part of showing Him respect as the ultimate and only just judge.

This is the definition of an atheist: “An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.” It is not matter of judging anyone. A person who calls himself an atheist is, by definition, one who rejects God. He has made it quite clear what is in his heart.

You say this: “you are telling God that your own feelings, comfort and wishes are more important to you than he is, that you have decided to make up your own rules and become your own Magisterial.” No offense meant, but quite honestly It blows my MIND how any of you human beings, who sin on a daily, or almost daily basis, can EVER say that you know this is what’s going on in someone else’s head.

 

[vz71]

I completely agree. Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I would rather go to the movies than go to church”, and on the way to the movies I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that for skipping mass one sunday, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people? I don’t buy that for a second.

I second that.

Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I am going to tell God NO”, and while telling God NO I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that rejecting God, even once without repenting, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people?
Yes, I buy that.

well then you have been brainwashed into believing false scare tactics, and i pity you

Debora123, are you sure you want to be aligned with these words and attitudes?

 

[vz71]

Say that missing mass is like skipping a court date, while the crimes of Hitler and Stalin are just what they are, murdering millions of people. Say the judge (god) gives Hitler and Stalin the death penalty (hell for all eternity) for these crimes. Should you get the death penalty as well, because you skipped your court date? No, you might go to jail for a while, but the punishment would not be the same.

A profound misunderstanding of what is and is not a mortal sin.

All mortal sins are a ‘NO’ to God with no repentance in the heart.
It matters not what the actual act really is, as long as the sin is serious, done freely, and with full knowledge, it can send someone to hell.

Man’s laws are a poor analogy at best, a misleading one at worst.

 

[slywakka250]

1. Nonetheless, it is my educated opinion (based on several things, including common sense and my understanding of God) that a good, faithful person who skips one mass for a silly reason and then dies the the same day won’t necessarily go to Hell for it. That is my opinion. th.

Your opinion doesn’t mean anything. The only thing that counts is the reality of the situation. the reality of the sin, and the effect that sin has on the soul.

The Church guides us, by telling us what actions are grave sins, i.e. the sins that by their very nature effect a complete separation from God when committed with full knowledge and full consent.

As Catholics, we are bound to obey the Church in all things which the Church deems serious obligations, or else our disobedience amounts to a wholesale rejection of Christ and of his gift of salvation.

There are many requirements. Grace is not cheap. Hell is closer than you think. Wake up and Repent.

The universe is a dangerous place for the sinner. Fear of hell is an awful motivation for spiritual growth. I think it is better to focus on the positive things, and ignore hell as much as possible.