Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[Flavius_Aetius]

Nothing I have read seems to answer that big problem that if you choose to just to not go to Mass then your going to be in the same place eternally with the rapists and murderers. And since people are allowed to continue sinning in Hell that means that for doing something such as never going to Mass you get to spend eternity with people who will rape you, make you suffer, and jeer and mock you.

Even Man´s laws are fairer than that, at the very least there are Maximum Security Prisons where the truly dangerous criminals are kept away from say the DUI lawbreaker…

God will just leave you with worst kind of scum and claim that you put yourself there…

 

[slywakka250]

Nothing I have read seems to answer that big problem that if you choose to just to not go to Mass then your going to be in the same place eternally with the rapists and murderers. And since people are allowed to continue sinning in Hell that means that for doing something such as never going to Mass you get to spend eternity with people who will rape you, make you suffer, and jeer and mock you.

Even Man´s laws are fairer than that, at the very least there are Maximum Security Prisons where the truly dangerous criminals are kept away from say the DUI lawbreaker…

God will just leave you with worst kind of scum and claim that you put yourself there…

First of all the pain of being raped, jeered, and mocked, is nothing compared to the pain of separation from God, who is our final end, forever through our own fault.

I have actually heard that God punishes souls in hell “less than they deserve,” but that each person is punished “according to the degree of his sins.” the experience of hell for one person who missed on Mass will be a different experience than the experience of somebody who killed millions of people.

I argue this difference is hardly relevant given that hell vs heaven is by far a much bigger difference than any difference in degree of punishment or reward.

For instance, with stealing.

Say you are stealing money from your employer. Steal 1 cent, and that’s probably a venial sin. Steal $1 million dollars and that’s a mortal sin. But at what dollar amount do you transition from venial (no hell), to mortal(eternal hell). Its hard to imagine a point from which you go to heaven bound to hell bound in just a 1 dollar increment.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

First of all the pain of being raped, jeered, and mocked, is nothing compared to the pain of separation from God, who is our final end, forever through our own fault.

Except that there is no choice in that manner, going to Hell not only are you going to be mocked cruelly, raped, and maimed, but you also experience the seperation of God. Which leads to another problem. The consequence seems to be the farthest extreme of cruelty. I mean look at it this way, apparently even if you lived like an Atheist you still had God with you, and suddenly once your in Hell you experience something you have never experienced in life. Being punished with this permanent cruel and unusual punishment that as you said is worse than eternally being made to suffer physically.

 

[slywakka250]

Except that there is no choice in that manner, going to Hell not only are you going to be mocked cruelly, raped, and maimed, but you also experience the seperation of God. Which leads to another problem. The consequence seems to be the farthest extreme of cruelty. I mean look at it this way, apparently even if you lived like an Atheist you still had God with you, and suddenly once your in Hell you experience something you have never experienced in life. Being punished with this permanent cruel and unusual punishment that as you said is worse than eternally being made to suffer physically.

This is a very good point.

Why is is that when we commit mortal sin or are living in a state of sin, we still get all the benefits of living in God’s creation?. We still get the presence of God, and many graces in friendships, family, life’s little pleasures etc.

Even though we have have committed mortal sin and “rejected God,” while we are still alive, we don’t get to actually “feel” the full separation from him like we will when we get to hell.

wouldn’t it make more sense for God to really load the suffering on those living in sin, so that they will realize just how much their sin is hurting them before its too late???

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

This is a very good point.

Why is is that when we commit mortal sin or are living in a state of sin, we still get all the benefits of living in God’s creation?. We still get the presence of God, and many graces in friendships, family, life’s little pleasures etc.

Even though we have have committed mortal sin and “rejected God,” while we are still alive, we don’t get to actually “feel” the full separation from him like we will when we get to hell.

wouldn’t it make more sense for God to really load the suffering on those living in sin, so that they will realize just how much their sin is hurting them before its too late???

I suppose so…at the very least you would have a proper warning instead of finding out what it feels like when its a permanent change.

 

[vz71]

Nothing I have read seems to answer that big problem that if you choose to just to not go to Mass then your going to be in the same place eternally with the rapists and murderers.

Why not? They ALL made the same decision.
Self over God.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Why not? They ALL made the same decision.
Self over God.

Because the Punishment is not fair, or anything expected of a loving god. It is on par to being tyranical, it is like a despot putting political prisoners who have done nothing but speak out against them with the rapists, murderers, and other monsters.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Nothing I have read seems to answer that big problem that if you choose to just to not go to Mass then your going to be in the same place eternally with the rapists and murderers.

The answers are right in front of you. As it is with most people the simple answers are rejected while the more profound are not understood because they are spiritually examined, those with a need for “ears to hear” have none.

The arguments from authority are rejected because the Church or God Himself holds little, if any, authority with them. The arguments from charity are rejected because people think themselves “good” people and if they don’t “feel” bad, then they aren’t. It is God’s Spirit living in them that would make them “good”, as only God is Good, and they refuse to go to Church to receive that Spirit because of the above mentioned authority issue.

So we are left with people asking and even mocking others that offer these answers because they refuse to work to examine the answers for themselves. God is real and is continuously working to change those who reject Him into those who would live the true life devoid slavery to sin, which is the prelude to eternity without God. They reject the virtuous life as a life not fully lived whereas addiction to passions and base desires is. The pity they mock us with will be turned inward as they see what their choices have made of themselves in the afterlife and like the choice for God the angels made, the wedding garment of Christ for us is available for order only in this life.

 

[vz71]

Because the Punishment is not fair, or anything expected of a loving god. It is on par to being tyranical, it is like a despot putting political prisoners who have done nothing but speak out against them with the rapists, murderers, and other monsters.

If one chooses to spend eternity with the rapists, murderers, and monsters, that is their business.
It is their decision. What is God to do with someone that wants nothing to do with him? Force him into choosing God?

 

[Sonny69]

It is little in itself (just as eating a morsel of steak on Good Friday is little in itself) but grave because of the lack of obedience required by God.

This is true, but it doesn’t change the nature of mortal and venial sins, which are not arbitrary but really flow from the nature of God himself.

All sin is “rebellion” against God and the prophecy by the Apostle Paul as written in 1 Timothy 4:1-5 contradicts your illustration used above.

 

[slywakka250]

If one chooses to spend eternity with the rapists, murderers, and monsters, that is their business.
It is their decision. What is God to do with someone that wants nothing to do with him? Force him into choosing God?

He should give us more time. God should perhaps let us experience hell and see how we like it. Experiencing how bad things are without God, would show us how much we need God. As it is, many people are non-Catholics, and don’t really take this religious stuff seriously. What’
s to become of them?

To me, its not obvious that this life is about God. Raised a Catholic, that’s what I have been taught. But you make it sound like it is a clear cut choice before every man. Many have no clue that hell exists, and I am convinced hell will really take them by surprise, once they die and realize the reality of sin, and the reality of what they have freely choosen.

Why is the reality only fully evident at death??? at death our experience is put into high gear. extreme bliss or extreme torture. such a sharp transition is so strange.

 

[Sonny69]

Do you mean to tell me that everything is ok, and I really have nothing to worry about?

Regarding following my heart, my heart tells me that hell does not really exist, that God loves me very much, and that I am going to heaven. My heart tells me that I have all the time I need for spiritual development, perhaps many lifetimes via reincarnation. When I follow my heart, I feel that evil does not really exist, and what some perceive as sin is just ignorance and misfortune in the evolution of man.

In my heart, I am at peace, because there is no fear. Just love. no hell. just joy in existence.

Thanks for reminding me of this place in my heart. I rest here, happy.

I am truly comforted, until somebody starts talking about hell and damnation again.

5 Thus saith Jehovah: Cursed is the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from Jehovah. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited. 7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in Jehovah, and whose trust Jehovah is. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots by the river, and shall not fear when heat cometh, but its leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. 9 **The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it? **10 I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings. 11 As the partridge that sitteth on eggs which she hath not laid, so is he that getteth riches, and not by right; in the midst of his days they shall leave him, and at his end he shall be a fool.

Making decisions of eternity based on your “heart-felt” feelings?

 

[Sonny69]

I completely agree. Let’s say I wake up on a sunday and tell myself, “I would rather go to the movies than go to church”, and on the way to the movies I die in a car accident.
You are telling me that for skipping mass one sunday, I will have the same punishment as Hitler and Stalin, who killed millions and millions of people? I don’t buy that for a second.

You are no different than a Hitler or Stalin; given enough power, position and money you could be worse, but praise God for His restraing grace given to you despite the fact that you hate Him; that is one aspect of God’s love toward you.

You do not understand two things, the infinite worth of God or the seriousness of the disease you and all men have which is called sin, which is rebellion against the infinitely worthy God revealed in the written Word.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

If one chooses to spend eternity with the rapists, murderers, and monsters, that is their business.
It is their decision. What is God to do with someone that wants nothing to do with him? Force him into choosing God?

That is possibly worse than than any Hellfire speech made by some fundamentalist, to imply people sin or choose not to believe in God expecting to be left at the mercy of cruel human beings in an eternal prison. Isnt it more reasonable to assume that God simply does not give us a good enough reason to believe in him? Why when he requires us to put this absurd faith in him with nothing to back it up, he decides to punish us for not believing by putting us in a prison with billions of the world´s most cruel and evil men?

You are no different than a Hitler or Stalin; given enough power, position and money you could be worse, but praise God for His restraing grace given to you despite the fact that you hate Him; that is one aspect of God’s love toward you.

You do not understand two things, the infinite worth of God or the seriousness of the disease you and all men have which is called sin, which is rebellion against the infinitely worthy God revealed in the written Word.

You dont know anything about this poster, and here you are claiming that giving him or her a little money, a little power and they would be willing to slaughter millions!

If God really sees someone who sins so minorly as to miss Mass in the same light as a genocidal tyrant then honestly there is nothing worth worshiping in Him!

 

[Sonny69]

You dont know anything about this poster, and here you are claiming that giving him or her a little money, a little power and they would be willing to slaughter millions!

If God really sees someone who sins so minorly as to miss Mass in the same light as a genocidal tyrant then honestly there is nothing worth worshiping in Him!

That is the natual attitude and understanding of most of mankind, which is why most are perishing in their sin.

Twist my words all you want; what I said if given enough money, power, and authority and **no restraining by God’s grace **and each of us could be a Hitler or a Stalin or worse; do you not understand the gravity of sin before an infinitely worthy God or how He restrains by His loving common grace?

 

[slywakka250]

That is the natual attitude and understanding of most of mankind, which is why most are perishing in their sin.

Twist my words all you want; what I said if given enough money, power, and authority and **no restraining by God’s grace **and each of us could be a Hitler or a Stalin or worse; do you not understand the gravity of sin before an infinitely worthy God or how He restrains by His loving common grace?

You seem to imply that we would all maximally sin, but for God’s grace, such that grace is the only thing keeping a cap on the extreme sinfulness of man.

Why are you so quick to see only the fallen side of human nature? It is Catholic teaching that while we are fallen, we are not totally corrupt. Our nature, while wounded, is still capable of good; It is not in total depravity, as some other Christian Denominations hold.

 

[Sonny69]

You seem to imply that we would all maximally sin, but for God’s grace, such that grace is the only thing keeping a cap on the extreme sinfulness of man.

Why are you so quick to see only the fallen side of human nature? It is Catholic teaching that while we are fallen, we are not totally corrupt. Our nature, while wounded, is still capable of good; It is not in total depravity, as some other Christian Denominations hold.

Yeah; you are correct and according to God we would; so I fear and trust Him. Neither one of us would have a friend in the world if our spouses, children or friends knew the thoughts we have had & that is when we are “good”.

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?
Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. Jer. 13

 

[steve_b]

I second that.

You don’t understand.

You’re really not grasping the warning in Heb 10, and the seriousness of deliberately missing mass. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7373959&postcount=165

All this comparison to mass murderers, Hitler, rapists etc etc, being equal to missing mass, shows you don’t grasp the seriousness of deliberately missing mass.

All those other comparison sins can send one to hell too. It’s not either/or it’s ALL of them can send one to hell…

Look, when scripture says one won’t inherit heaven / kingdom of God/etc for certain sins, where’s the argument?

For example, Let me take what seems like a minor sin highlighted in red, It is NOT however, minor according to scripture.

Gal 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW, all these sins can land one in hell. Dissent and factious people, i.e. people who leave the Catholic Church. Should that be equal to the sins of Hitler, etc? Trying to change what is written here so that it is more palatable and acceptable to ones senses, is like trying to unring a bell. It’s like trying to unsee what has just been seen.

Titus 3: **10 **Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness…… 5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, I’ve already gone over this.

Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance

Romans 16:17 dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves

Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The tip off for what is a mortal sin, is the consequence mentioned. Loss of inheritance from the kingdom of God/heaven if one dies with any of these sins on their souls is a mortal sin. Either one believes what is from scripture here or they don’t. I personally won’t downplay, disbelieve, or try and argue against what is written from scripture above.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Ok well given all that, there is the question of why anyone would worship a god that is so willing to accept that generally moral people who happened to sin before death, or who simply were atheist are eternally punished with the same lot of people who spent there entire lives causing nothing but pain, suffering, and death to there fellow man.

And that leads to another question, so does that mean when we are completely seperated from God that upon reaching Hell we will become these monsters that put Pol Pot and serial killers to shame? Is God fine just allowing his creations to become worse than demons just because they died missing a Mass, or happened to not believe in him?

 

[alacoque]

what comes to my mind is that God does give us time…all the time - not to mention His grace and opportunities - to know all we need to know. After all, He has revealed to us, through scripture, through His Word (Jesus Incarnate) and His Church, ALL we need and need to know to be saved from hell.

Even in earthly terms, there is no shortage of information and resources out there to find out the truth and to learn what we need to know. If we remain ignorant of the truth or of all God has provided us with to both know Him and know the reality of things, then I believe we are culpable for that - it is our own fault if we do not ‘seek’ out what He has provided. We can’t blame Him if we don’t know what we need to know and we can’t claim He didn’t give us enough time.

Ironically, I think asking for ‘more time’ is the same thing as the rich man (as related in the Gospel) who died and asked God to send someone to his brothers to tell them it was all true and they had better pay attention and believe. He was told that his brothers (and all mankind) had the scriptures and the prophets and that if they didn’t believe that or learn from all that, they would not believe even if someone rose from the dead (which happened of course, in Jesus). It’s the same thing with the desire for more time or to spend some time in hell to see whatever we would see…we already know all this - or should. We have the benefit of much more than scriptures and the prophets! We have the Church, her Sacraments, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and all the grace of God our Father.

The ball is in our court regarding belief in the truth He has given us…we only need to ‘repent and believe the good news’