Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

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  1. *]What about those who do not believe in hell?? If you have zero belief in hell or even the afterlife, I highly doubt you are guaranteed heaven. Therefore, if you don’t believe in hell, you still might end up there.

  1. **1801 **Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

    **1791 **This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

    **1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
    s:
    It’s hard for me to see how this is freely chosen.
    Mortal sins unfortunately are easy to commit. The easiest are sins of the flesh. Are those forced, or freely chosen?
    s:
    Sure, you might know that some of your sins are bad, but you are literally clueless to just how steep the consequences will be. You might think that the worst thing that can happen is a physical death. If you believed in a literal eternal hell, you might of thought twice before committing those serious sins of yours.
    Jesus warned of the consequences. All you’re saying here is, people don’t believe Him.
    s:
    how is a person who doesn’t believe in hell or even the afterlife not “railroaded”, because at death they find out all of a sudden the universe is much more dangerous, and their actions have much more serious consequences than they ever imagined. Sure they knew some of the things they did were wrong, but they had NO IDEA just how far reaching (eternal) the consequences would be???
    regarding ignorance

    ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=ignorance&xsubmit=Search&s=SSgarding
 
I think it’s very important to point out that hell is for those who die in the state of unrepented mortal sin.

And, in a case like that, of mortal sin completely unrepented of, we actually choose hell for ourselves. No one goes to hell by accident…it is for those who freely and fully reject God and want no part of Him - and, as they say, “you know who you are” :gopray:
True, No one goes to either heaven or hell by accident.

**1033 **We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1033.htm

other sins that keep us from inheriting heaven
Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
All sin is “rebellion” against God and the prophecy by the Apostle Paul as written in 1 Timothy 4:1-5 contradicts your illustration used above.
I thought fasting had to be proper full fast. When you decide to fast. On how many days you decide. 1.2.5.19, 40 There is no sin involved any where here. But it seems with the catholic church its not a full fast and if you eat meat on a Friday its a Sin. So the church has invented a Sin. That is not written in the bible. What happened to do no let anyone Judge you as regards what you eat when you eat.🤷

When you talk about various levels of punishment in hell forever. Does that mean some parts of hell is worst then others?

By the way hell is a bad Translation.

Hell Greek or Hebrew. Hades or sheol=Grave or pit= Realm of the dead!!

1 peter 3:18-20
When you are in the realm of the dead Tartarus=Lower underworld=spirits in Prison.

Or you are in paradise which is the Third heaven. This to is the realm of the dead.

On the Resurrection and Judgement. Everybody comes out of Paradise and Tartarus and get Judged According to there works. Hell=Hades or sheol=Grave or pit= tatarus is thrown into the lake of fire. Then those on the left=condemned into the lake of fire forever Those on the Right to eternal life forever on a new earth and then a new heaven will come down to earth.

Also was Tartarus purgatory for some Catholics??

On the Final Judgment. when i read it in Greek it is either {Age long life}
In the new Heaven+Earth> kingdom of Heaven.

Or Age long Correction. In the lake of fire. This seems to mean a Long period of Correction. Until God Decides they have been Corrected.🤷
 
Here’s the thing:

NO-ONE would choose Hell deliberately and to say that Hell is a deliberate choice is sort of absurd. If you actually knew for certain that you would go to hell for missing mass on Sunday, you would kill yourself to get there, literally. NOTHING could keep you away. NOTHING could make you commit even a single sin. NOBODY chooses hell.

Also, I have a real problem with the concept of eternal hell as well. I am a mother, and there is NO WAY, no matter what my son did to me, no matter how disrespectful he was to me over and over again, that I would allow him to be punished eternally, ever. I cannot imagine that God would do this.

And lastly, why would death be this arbitrary cut-off? Certainly, once we die and are confronted by God and actually realize with certainty in a way that was impossible before the harm we did to our relationship with God and the knowledge of an eternal separation from Him and all Love, don’t you think we will throw ourselves at His feet and beg for mercy? And what then? God (our loving Father) is just going to say “Too late, you made your bed, now burn in it.” I CANNOT imagine this. Don’t you think God will be so moved to compassion and so happy that we, even after death, have recognized our mistakes and are sorry that we did not love Him enough, that He will take us into His arms forever? Why would God and His love be constrained by time and death?
 
Here’s the thing:

NO-ONE would choose Hell deliberately and to say that Hell is a deliberate choice is sort of absurd. If you actually knew for certain that you would go to hell for missing mass on Sunday, you would kill yourself to get there, literally. NOTHING could keep you away. NOTHING could make you commit even a single sin. NOBODY chooses hell.

Also, I have a real problem with the concept of eternal hell as well. I am a mother, and there is NO WAY, no matter what my son did to me, no matter how disrespectful he was to me over and over again, that I would allow him to be punished eternally, ever. I cannot imagine that God would do this.

And lastly, why would death be this arbitrary cut-off? Certainly, once we die and are confronted by God and actually realize with certainty in a way that was impossible before the harm we did to our relationship with God and the knowledge of an eternal separation from Him and all Love, don’t you think we will throw ourselves at His feet and beg for mercy? And what then? God (our loving Father) is just going to say “Too late, you made your bed, now burn in it.” I CANNOT imagine this. Don’t you think God will be so moved to compassion and so happy that we, even after death, have recognized our mistakes and are sorry that we did not love Him enough, that He will take us into His arms forever? Why would God and His love be constrained by time and death?
I completely agree. Even one soul suffering infinite torment in hell is unacceptable to me, yet some people speculate there may be millions there. No matter how much hell is “deserved,” hell’s very existence in my mind nullifies all goodness that was ever in this universe, making the state of affairs in which man finds himself very bleak indeed.
 
But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
In our eyes, with our small human minds, it is. We sure see it that way.

Trust in the Almighty Lord, who is all merciful and just. Only He knows what is in the heart of each person He created.
 
Some thoughts on the Church’s stance on Universal Salvation…

The Second Vatican Council maintained the doctrine that all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things. The following is taken from the constitution Gaudium et Spes (1:45, 2:57).

· While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God’s kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is ‘the universal sacrament of salvation’ simultaneously manifesting and actualising the mystery of God’s love.

For God’s Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself. The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings. He it is Whom the Father raised from the dead, lifted on high and stationed at His right hand, making Him judge of the living and the dead. Enlivened and united in His Spirit, we journey toward the consummation of human history, one which fully accords with the counsel of God’s love: ‘To reestablish all things in Christ, both those in the heavens and those on the earth’ (Eph. 1:10).

… Moreover, by the impulse of grace, he is disposed to acknowledge the Word of God, Who before He became flesh in order to save all and to sum up all in Himself was already ‘in the world’ as ‘the true light which enlightens every man’ (John 1:9-10).”

Pope John Paul II often gave us to hope that all will be saved and taught the doctrine of universal salvation. The following are but three examples of many compiled.

· Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

· Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever ‘clad in a robe dipped in blood’ (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation. (Message of John Paul II to the Abbess General of the Order of the Most Holy Saviour of St Bridget)

· If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this ‘judgment,’ undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ’s work aimed at universal salvation. We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation. (General Audience of May 24, 1989)

The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to hope that all will be saved.

· 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).

· 1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’

The new Roman Missal and Divine Office do too.

· Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)

· Almighty God, we recall how you sent your angel to the centurion Cornelius to show him the way of salvation. Open our hearts to work more zealously for the salvation of the world, so that your Church may bring us and all men into your presence. (Divine Office, Tuesdays, Afternoon Prayer)

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor, the head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, recently expressed his hope that all will be saved in an interview with a Catholic newspaper.

· We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell), let’s face it… I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I’ve loved on this earth… I hope I will be surprised in heaven, I think I will be.

romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm
 
So then God is completely merciful but not completely just.

For this reason, we should not worry about living according to His word because there is no real, lasting or eternal damnation. We’ll all eventually go to heaven and hell will cease to exist.

Oh yeah, and Lucifer and his angels…well, remember, God is completely merciful and not so much justice. So, they too will one day be in heaven because God won’t be able to bear the pain of their eternal suffering and finally decide to welcome everyone into heaven to share with the ones that suffered and sacrificed and kept His word. In the end God will say, " surprise, there is no eternal damnation - only eternal reward. That whole hell thing was just a scare tactic for some of you."

If anything at all is [disproportionate] - it’s this flakey philosophy of denying the eternity of hell and the license that such flakey philosophy gives to the clueless souls that abscribe to it.

You are truly worthy of prayer and pity.
 
So then God is completely merciful but not completely just.

For this reason, we should not worry about living according to His word because there is no real, lasting or eternal damnation. We’ll all eventually go to heaven and hell will cease to exist.

Oh yeah, and Lucifer and his angels…well, remember, God is completely merciful and not so much justice. So, they too will one day be in heaven because God won’t be able to bear the pain of their eternal suffering and finally decide to welcome everyone into heaven to share with the ones that suffered and sacrificed and kept His word. In the end God will say, " surprise, there is no eternal damnation - only eternal reward. That whole hell thing was just a scare tactic for some of you."

If anything at all is [disproportionate] - it’s this flakey philosophy of denying the eternity of hell and the license that such flakey philosophy gives to the clueless souls that abscribe to it.

You are truly worthy of prayer and pity.
Can you tell me what on Earth is JUST about an eternity of torture for missing Mass one Sunday?
 
Can you tell me what on Earth is JUST about an eternity of torture for missing Mass one Sunday?
I had a feeling you’d be the one to respond.

Missing mass one Sunday is disproportionate with what this thread poses.

You’re not concerned about one Sunday Mass. You’re concerned about an eternity in hell.

You wish that there is no eternal repercussions for a life of sin. The reality is that there is.

All your wishing is not going to change that…

Instead, strive for a life of prayer and a life of the spirit. Participate of the Sacraments. Live by the 10 commandments. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling because the infinitely merciful God is also infinitely Just.
 
Can you tell me what on Earth is JUST about an eternity of torture for missing Mass one Sunday?
Sure…
When someone decides…
No God. I will not follow your command.
I know it is serious, and that you have commanded me to attend.
But I have better things to do with my time then spend even a moment in your presence.

What exactly do you want? For God to force himself upon these people?
 
Can you tell me what on Earth is JUST about an eternity of torture for missing Mass one Sunday?
Let me ask you…are you a parent? Possibly a mom?

I’m a parent and I sense something from you that I currently feel because of the life that my son has chosen to live.

Am I close. Please let me know.

Love, mangy dog.
 
I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
I find it hard to accept, too. But I believe it.

I wonder if the majority of “grave sins” are “mortal”. In other words, are the three requirements for mortal sin verified in most cases involving grave matter? For example, those using contraception: do most of them know that it in fact a mortal sin? I seriously doubt, at least in the U.S., whether the idea of “sin” even comes up in most couples’ decisions to contracept.

As for Sunday mass, I would wager that 90% or more of Catholics do not know this precept obliges gravely.

And sins against me…for example, somebody stole my $400 digital camera, and somebody’s been siphoning my tank lately. I certainly want them to stop and make restitution, but I wouldn’t want to see them burn in hell for eternity for it.
 
I had a feeling you’d be the one to respond.

Missing mass one Sunday is disproportionate with what this thread poses.

You’re not concerned about one Sunday Mass. You’re concerned about an eternity in hell.

You wish that there is no eternal repercussions for a life of sin. The reality is that there is.

All your wishing is not going to change that…

Instead, strive for a life of prayer and a life of the spirit. Participate of the Sacraments. Live by the 10 commandments. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling because the infinitely merciful God is also infinitely Just.
But the bottom line is, if I go my entire life without sinning, then at the age of 95, I miss Sunday Mass because I just don’t feel like it for once and then I die without going to confession, the Catholic Church teaches that I will spend forever in hell.
 
Let me ask you…are you a parent? Possibly a mom?

I’m a parent and I sense something from you that I currently feel because of the life that my son has chosen to live.

Am I close. Please let me know.

Love, mangy dog.
Yes I am, although my son is still a toddler.
 
And sins against me…for example, somebody stole my $400 digital camera, and somebody’s been siphoning my tank lately. I certainly want them to stop and make restitution, but I wouldn’t want to see them burn in hell for eternity for it.
Perhaps these actions against you are results of the person rejecting God.

It would seem trivial to me as well to spend eternity in hell for theft of some gas and a camera.
But if these sins are simply the result of an overall rejection of God, then eternity in hell may be what they want.
 
Some thoughts on the Church’s stance on Universal Salvation…

The Second Vatican Council maintained the doctrine that all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things. The following is taken from the constitution Gaudium et Spes (1:45, 2:57).

· While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God’s kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is ‘the universal sacrament of salvation’ simultaneously manifesting and actualising the mystery of God’s love.

For God’s Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself. The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings. He it is Whom the Father raised from the dead, lifted on high and stationed at His right hand, making Him judge of the living and the dead. Enlivened and united in His Spirit, we journey toward the consummation of human history, one which fully accords with the counsel of God’s love: ‘To reestablish all things in Christ, both those in the heavens and those on the earth’ (Eph. 1:10).

… Moreover, by the impulse of grace, he is disposed to acknowledge the Word of God, Who before He became flesh in order to save all and to sum up all in Himself was already ‘in the world’ as ‘the true light which enlightens every man’ (John 1:9-10).”

Pope John Paul II often gave us to hope that all will be saved and taught the doctrine of universal salvation. The following are but three examples of many compiled.

· Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

· Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever ‘clad in a robe dipped in blood’ (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation. (Message of John Paul II to the Abbess General of the Order of the Most Holy Saviour of St Bridget)

· If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this ‘judgment,’ undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ’s work aimed at universal salvation. We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation. (General Audience of May 24, 1989)

The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to hope that all will be saved.

· 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).

· 1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’

The new Roman Missal and Divine Office do too.

· Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)

· Almighty God, we recall how you sent your angel to the centurion Cornelius to show him the way of salvation. Open our hearts to work more zealously for the salvation of the world, so that your Church may bring us and all men into your presence. (Divine Office, Tuesdays, Afternoon Prayer)

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor, the head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, recently expressed his hope that all will be saved in an interview with a Catholic newspaper.

· We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell), let’s face it… I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I’ve loved on this earth… I hope I will be surprised in heaven, I think I will be.

romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm
I know I am responding to my own post here, but I just want to clarify that to my knowledge, the Church does NOT teach Universalism, and that it is a heresy? Correct me if I am wrong, but the Church says it is a virtue to HOPE for universal salvation but a heresy to BELIEVE it? 🤷

I just didn’t want people to think that I was stating that this is something the Church actually teaches. I just pulled these quotes off a website 🙂
 
But the bottom line is, if I go my entire life without sinning, then at the age of 95, I miss Sunday Mass because I just don’t feel like it for once and then I die without going to confession, the Catholic Church teaches that I will spend forever in hell.
If you spend 95 years without sinning and then miss Mass, you would have a hard time convincing me that the three requirements for a sin to be mortal are actually being met.
 
Perhaps these actions against you are results of the person rejecting God.

It would seem trivial to me as well to spend eternity in hell for theft of some gas and a camera.
But if these sins are simply the result of an overall rejection of God, then eternity in hell may be what they want.
That’s the thing. NO-ONE in their right mind eternally rejects God (except maybe Satan and “the gang”). Take the worst person in the history of the world, the moment after death, and show them the hell that is in store for them vs. the paradise they missed out on and they will be BEGGING for God’s mercy, guaranteed. When people sin, they don’t honestly think they are eternally rejecting God. At the very most, they are angry at God, but believe deep down that He will show mercy on them anyway. NOBODY deliberately chooses eternal torment, as if the human mind could even fathom it to begin with.

It’s like telling a 2-year-old that if they touch the stove, you will ground them until they’re 18. If they choose to touch the stove anyway, do you think they really have the capacity to voluntarily choose such a punishment? Of course they don’t. And forcing them to stick to that punishment even at the age of 16 and just saying “I warned you” isn’t really fair is it? A child does not have the capacity to make decisions like that and neither do we.
 
But the bottom line is, if I go my entire life without sinning, then at the age of 95, I miss Sunday Mass because I just don’t feel like it for once and then I die without going to confession, the Catholic Church teaches that I will spend forever in hell.
Well you see !

That is a much clearer example. Don’t you think that God’s Mercy would apply in this situation?!

We must trust in God’s Mercy without making erroneous assumptions about His Justice.

It is sinful to not trust His Mercy but it is also sinful to not believe in His Justice.

Keep a life of prayer and a life of the spirit. Do the basic catholic things really, really well and trust in the Lord.

God bless you and your child.
 
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