Isn't God Everywhere?

[alyssa]

Once I learned about, and really understood the Mass, how can I NOT want to be there? I go 3-4 times a week plus the Sundays…I mean, once you understand what is actually happening…I don’t even have words.

 

[mtr01]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Cherub, There is no place like being in our Fathers House. Yes praying is important but Gods presence and His annoiting is more visable at His alters in my oppinion. Its easy to stay home,it takes sacrafice to go to His House. God Bless

Spoken, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but since you don’t go to a Catholic or Orthodox Church, what is the altar in your Church used for?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

alyssa:

Once I learned about, and really understood the Mass, how can I NOT want to be there? I go 3-4 times a week plus the Sundays…I mean, once you understand what is actually happening…I don’t even have words.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

mtr01:

Spoken, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but since you don’t go to a Catholic or Orthodox Church, what is the altar in your Church used for?

The alter is used for the purpose of 1.Hearing the Word of God.2. A place where we can come and bow down before Him and let Him mold us into the vessel He has called us to be.A place where we can come and repent and recieve His forgiveness.Its Holy Ground.His presence is there,thats all. God Bless

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

The alter is used for the purpose of 1.Hearing the Word of God.2. A place where we can come and bow down before Him and let Him mold us into the vessel He has called us to be.A place where we can come and repent and recieve His forgiveness.Its Holy Ground.His presence is there,thats all. God Bless

But all throughout scripture altars were used always and only to offer sacrifice. At what point did it change to be for hearing the word of God and a place to bow down? Where is that change recorded and who authorized it? Why is it holy ground? Is God more present on your altar than elsewhere in your church? How so?

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mercygate]

Catholic4aReasn:

I think that many outside the Church look at “having” to be there as merely a control thing, you have to be there because the Church says you have to be there. We “have” to be at Mass in the same way that a surgeon “has” to show up for surgery. . . . Our presence there matters.

Indeed. But a lot of people who leave the Church for Protestantism have a strong, undeniable, life-changing conversion experience, and associate that experience as much with the denomination where it happened as with the grace of God. What we hope and pray for is that those people will mature into an appreciation that their conversion is not just a one time event but a day-by-day turning to Christ that will draw them back to the fullness of the faith.

 

[Curious]

You don’t have to go to church to offer prayers and worship and praise. We have to go to church to participate in the sacrifice of the Mass. If Protestants thought for a moment that their personal prayers and worship and praise they offer while in attendance at church, in particular, had a significant impact on the world there’s no way they miss going to church. They’d definitely see it as a sin. As it is, what you do there can just as well be done anywhere. What we do cannot. Therein lies the difference.

Very nicely put. You guys are so articulate. Thank you. Also, thanks to the person that explained it this way: all Catholics everywhere doing the same thing…that made sense to me. Sorry…I really should put quotes for all these and remember who said what. I’m still kinda bad at this.

And Matt, you’re analogy with the Ark of the Covenant and the special presence of God that was there is appreciated. However, those examples where God dwelled in one particular place are Old Testament. The New Testament says the WE are the temple of God and God dwells in us and not in buildings made by hands or some such.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Nancy,not very nice.Being judgemental are we? Of course I disagree with you.So my praise and worship and prayers dont reach the heavens and have no impact according to you. God Bless anyways

I read a good deal of Reformed and Puritan books - the emphasis is constantly on God’s Glory and on what God requires of those who belong to Him; and this certainly includes “church-going”. The notion that everything should revolve around one’s own concerns would be - is - unthinkable for them.​

Reformed & Puritan piety is full of sermons and Biblical exposition - and this would not exist, if church-going, “keeping the Lord’s Day holy”, did not loom large is such piety.

A modern(ish) example of this is Alexander Whyte’s series of sermons on “Bible Characters”. There are 159 of these sermons, many of them forming subseries - such as the four sermons on Moses, or his sermons on St.Paul - and they are full of asides to his listeners. Reformed preaching on the Bible is - or was, once - based on the exposition of the text verse by verse in sequence: and this too presupposes constant attendance at church.

The Westminster Confession of 1646 is clear that church-going is part of the Christian life, as a way of honouring and obeying God.

ISTM that it would be easier to fault Reformed Christianity for concentrating too much on God, than for taking too little notice of Him. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

SPOKENWORD:

The alter is used for the purpose of 1.Hearing the Word of God.2. A place where we can come and bow down before Him and let Him mold us into the vessel He has called us to be.A place where we can come and repent and recieve His forgiveness.Its Holy Ground.His presence is there,thats all. God Bless

In Biblical terms, it sounds as if the altar functions as the “mercy seat” as well, and as the “tent of meeting”, in addition to being an altar.​

Would that be a fair statement - or is it too Old Testamental ? Or would different Biblical imagery be more appropriate ? ##

 

[ahimsaman72]

I hope this isn’t a repeat thread. If it is I apologize. When i tried to submit the first time, my computer chose to very hateful. I wasn’t sure it went through.

I put this under non-Catholic religons because I’m not Catholic. Hope it’s in the right place.

Greetings Catholic brethren and sistren,

My question comes from another post talking about missing Mass on purpose, and it being a mortal sin. The main reason givenon the other thread is because Jesus is there (in the Eucharist) and skipping out on Mass = skipping out on Jesus.

I know you guys believe real presence in the communion. But really…it’s almost like you’re saying. Jesus is in this church at this particular time and can’t be anywhere else. If you don’t go to mass, you won’t be anywhere near God. Isn’t he everywhere? I mean, not to say that everyone ought to skip mass/church every 5 seconds because “God is everywhere.” But too, I don’t think he’s confined to that sacramental bread and wine for a few minutes every Sunday and that’s all - that Jesus is only at Mass so therefore if you miss Mass than you miss Jesus.

Please no one scream at me and roll your eyes and say “Yes, that’s such a Protestant thing to say. You people go to church whenever you darn well please.” Whether that’s true or not is not the issue. My question is sincere. I would never bash ya’ll.

To go back to this issue of mortal sin and missing Sunday mass. This is an issue that boggles my mind. I don’t see missing Sunday mass as mortal and “go to hell” material anywhere in Scriptures. Of course, being a Scripture only person that makes sense.

Even if Tradition states that it is a mortal sin, it still boggles the mind. What happened to the two greatest commandments spoken by Christ? Did he even say for those to be missed or not practiced that one would go to hell? No.

It seems to be a man-made policy without Biblical merit.

And as to if God is everywhere - yes of course - He is omnipresent. He dwells on the inside - the Holy Spirit. He does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Peace…

 

[maendem]

Joannes:

Hello Curious:

. What is unique in our belief in the Real Presence is not that Jesus is present as God, but that He is present as man. And when we say that He is present as man, we mean also that although He is present under the appearances of bread and wine He truly is bodily present, and hence, present as true man with His human intellect and will, with His human memory and His human emotions. Like any lover with his beloved, in loving us He wants our company and our love in return. So in visiting Him in a church or in attending Mass we Catholics really do have the great privilege of keeping human company with Him.

Joannes:; I found your post beautiful, but I wanted to clarify something regarding the above quote. You write:…“not that Jesus is present as God but that He is present as man.”

As Catholics, we believe that the Incarnate God is present in the Eucharist - “body, blood, soul and divinity.” Surely you mean that Jesus is present both as fully God and fully Man?

I assume you were just distinguishing between the spiritual presence of God as Spirit, and the unique physical presenc of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Thanks-

 

[davidv]

ahimsaman72:

To go back to this issue of mortal sin and missing Sunday mass. This is an issue that boggles my mind. I don’t see missing Sunday mass as mortal and “go to hell” material anywhere in Scriptures. Of course, being a Scripture only person that makes sense.

Even if Tradition states that it is a mortal sin, it still boggles the mind. What happened to the two greatest commandments spoken by Christ? Did he even say for those to be missed or not practiced that one would go to hell? No.

It seems to be a man-made policy without Biblical merit.

And as to if God is everywhere - yes of course - He is omnipresent. He dwells on the inside - the Holy Spirit. He does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Peace…

I looked over all of the previous posts. Nearly all explained Mass attendance in terms of those who “want to”. However, I did not see the reason for those who don’t want to. The Church has specified that participation in Mass is principal way in which we obey the third commandment to “remember the sabboth day, to keep it holy”. So there is also the matter of obedience to God’s law. Any disobedience to God’s direct commands are serious and may be mortal.

 

[ahimsaman72]

davidv:

I looked over all of the previous posts. Nearly all explained Mass attendance in terms of those who “want to”. However, I did not see the reason for those who don’t want to. The Church has specified that participation in Mass is principal way in which we obey the third commandment to “remember the sabboth day, to keep it holy”. So there is also the matter of obedience to God’s law. Any disobedience to God’s direct commands are serious and may be mortal.

Yes, I would say most want to anyway. But what about those who don’t? They are not considered faithful Catholics and are in fact in danger of hell because of their mortal sin. It is explicitly stated in Scriptures that no one can keep the law. If you fail on one point, you have failed the whole law. It seems very fatalistic to me.

It appears that there is the vision that God sits on His throne and is simply just waiting for someone to cross the line so that He can zap them - according to this kind of logic. Christ in His sermon on the mount explained that in reality intentions and motivations are the key. He went beyond - “Do not commit adultery”. He said that whoever even *looks *at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart.

The Religious leaders of the day looked merely at the outward behaviour and observance and were oblivious to the inward behaviour and motivations of the heart. Modern-day Catholics observe Sunday mass because they want to (I believe that). So, my point is - why has the hierarchy determined it is a mortal sin to not attend mass? Is it because God regards it as a mortal sin or because it is a doctrine that keeps people “in line”?

Why can’t it be prescribed or a guiding principle without the attachment of eternal condemnation? The result is the same either way - if what the posters, you and me believe is true - that Catholics want to attend mass - the condemnation doesn’t matter anyway.

Just curious.

Peace…

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Catholic4aReasn:

But all throughout scripture altars were used always and only to offer sacrifice. At what point did it change to be for hearing the word of God and a place to bow down? Where is that change recorded and who authorized it? Why is it holy ground? Is God more present on your altar than elsewhere in your church? How so?

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

Hi Nancy,dont we offer ourselves as living sacrafices to the Lord ? God Bless.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

So, my point is - why has the hierarchy determined it is a mortal sin to not attend mass? Is it because God regards it as a mortal sin or because it is a doctrine that keeps people “in line”?

Why can’t it be prescribed or a guiding principle without the attachment of eternal condemnation? The result is the same either way - if what the posters, you and me believe is true - that Catholics want to attend mass - the condemnation doesn’t matter anyway.

Just curious.

Peace…

The sinfulness derives from the fact that this touches a Commandment. The “hierarchy” also maintain that adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, and disrespect for parents are mortal sins. Here the Church is *reminding *the faithful that willfully missing Church is a behavior that translates into a violation of the Commandment to keep the Sabbath [Lord’s Day] Holy.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

The sinfulness derives from the fact that this touches a Commandment. The “hierarchy” also maintain that adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, and disrespect for parents are mortal sins. Here the Church is *reminding *the faithful that willfully missing Church is a behavior that translates into a violation of the Commandment to keep the Sabbath [Lord’s Day] Holy.

hello dear mercy…

With my Baptist background of course the commandment to keep the Sabbath is not binding on the church or individual. The understanding is that the Sabbath was meant only for Israelites. And the moral law is a guiding principle, but essentially a Mosaic/Israelite policy that isn’t binding on the New Testament Church.

You were probably already aware of that. D.L. Moody, though, taught that all 10 commandments should be kept and is binding on the New Testament Christian and spoke of the Christian Sabbath as being Sunday and as a transferrance from the Jewish Sabbath of Saturday. So, there’s some disagreement among various groups. Some say 9, some 10. Some say 0.

For instance, you only find 9 of the 10 commandments in the New Testament listed. Whenever the commandments are referred to they don’t include the Sabbath. And, of course, some groups like Seventh-Day Adventists believe Saturday is the correct day, so who knows?

Peace…

 

[hlgomez]

My question comes from another post talking about missing Mass on purpose, and it being a mortal sin. The main reason givenon the other thread is because Jesus is there (in the Eucharist) and skipping out on Mass = skipping out on Jesus.

I know you guys believe real presence in the communion. But really…it’s almost like you’re saying. Jesus is in this church at this particular time and can’t be anywhere else. If you don’t go to mass, you won’t be anywhere near God. Isn’t he everywhere? I mean, not to say that everyone ought to skip mass/church every 5 seconds because “God is everywhere.” But too, I don’t think he’s confined to that sacramental bread and wine for a few minutes every Sunday and that’s all - that Jesus is only at Mass so therefore if you miss Mass than you miss Jesus.

Curious,

I didn’t mind reading all the other posts so I just jump to answer your questions.

The Mass is not just to be with Jesus because He is there. We are basically there to “worship” Him and offer up the perpetual sacrifice and receive Him, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. There is no other substitute of any kind of worship and communion than the Holy Mass.

Second, since the Mass is the highest form of worship, it is a violation of the first commandment to skip Mass. I bet you know what the 1st commandment is?

God Bless,

Pio

 

[Matt16_18]

ahimsaman72:

… the moral law is a guiding principle …

The moral law is NOT a “guiding principle.”

Do Baptists believe that God has freed them from the OT commandments to live a moral life? Does freedom in Christ mean that Baptists are free to commit unrepenant theft, perjury, adultery and murder because the OT commandments prohibiting these sins are no longer binding upon Baptists?

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

hello dear mercy…

With my Baptist background of course the commandment to keep the Sabbath is not binding on the church or individual. The understanding is that the Sabbath was meant only for Israelites. And the moral law is a guiding principle, but essentially a Mosaic/Israelite policy that isn’t binding on the New Testament Church.

You were probably already aware of that. D.L. Moody, though, taught that all 10 commandments should be kept and is binding on the New Testament Christian and spoke of the Christian Sabbath as being Sunday and as a transferrance from the Jewish Sabbath of Saturday. So, there’s some disagreement among various groups. Some say 9, some 10. Some say 0.

For instance, you only find 9 of the 10 commandments in the New Testament listed. Whenever the commandments are referred to they don’t include the Sabbath. And, of course, some groups like Seventh-Day Adventists believe Saturday is the correct day, so who knows?

Peace…

Shut my mouth! I didn’t know that there were people who thought the commandments didn’t apply to Christians. But in a really INTENSE Calvinist theology, the elect would be incapable of sin, so the commandments would be superfluous, wouldn’t they?

Counting commandments can be confusing. If you look at either the Protestant or the Catholic editions, I think you actually come up with eleven commandments – dividing false gods and idolatry into to or, on the other hand, dividing covetousness into two.

Who knows? Who d’ya think?

 

[mercygate]

Matt16_18:

The moral law is NOT a “guiding principle.”

Do Baptists believe that God has freed them from the OT commandments to live a moral life? Does freedom in Christ mean that Baptists are free to commit unrepenant theft, perjury, adultery and murder because the OT commandments prohibiting these sins are no longer binding upon Baptists?

Think about it, Matt. In five-point Calvinism, the Elect are perfect: guaranteed perseverance. They cannot sin. That’s why people say that when somebody who appears to be “saved” backslides, then you know he wasn’t really saved. Perfect perseverance in grace is the “P” of the TULIP.