Isn't God Everywhere?

[Joannes]

Hello all:

I now realize I didn’t answer part of Curious’ question, viz., why is it a mortal sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday, though some of you have indeed given answers to this part of the question. It may be that I disagree in part with everyone, or maybe we are just all looking at different reasons for attending Mass.

My earlier response certainly showed a good reason for visiting a church or for attending Mass, but I didn’t prove that it is a sin not to do these things.

One of you said that we attend Mass because we are thereby obeying the Third Commandment, “Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.” Yet our obligation is not to attend on the Sabbath, but on Sunday, and we would also have to prove that the Ten Commandments given to Moses for the Hebrews also apply to us gentiles.

Someone else implied that we attend Mass because we have an obligation to worship God. Yet this poster did not prove how this obligation to worship God needs to be fulfilled.

I think that the Ten Commandments in their capacity as part of the Mosaic Law do not actually apply to us. I think they apply to us and to all human beings only insofar as they express the Natural Law written on our hearts. I think further that this Natural Law requires us to worship our Creator and Redeemer and Sanctifier.

I think that the requirement that we fulfill our obligation to worship God precisely by at least attending Mass on Sundays and certain holy days and so on arises from Church law, viz., from one of the Precepts of the Church. We are obligated to obey the Church, for Jesus said to His apostles, “He who hears you hears Me,” and also, “. . . teach them to observe everything that I have commanded you.”

What say you all?

Regards,
Joannes

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Nancy,dont we offer ourselves as living sacrafices to the Lord ? God Bless.

Hi SPOKENWORD!

We absolutely do! We unite ourselves with the sacrifice of the cross and it’s all offered together at Mass. I’m not clear on how that answers my question though.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

hello dear mercy…

With my Baptist background of course the commandment to keep the Sabbath is not binding on the church or individual. The understanding is that the Sabbath was meant only for Israelites. And the moral law is a guiding principle, but essentially a Mosaic/Israelite policy that isn’t binding on the New Testament Church.

You were probably already aware of that. D.L. Moody, though, taught that all 10 commandments should be kept and is binding on the New Testament Christian and spoke of the Christian Sabbath as being Sunday and as a transferrance from the Jewish Sabbath of Saturday. So, there’s some disagreement among various groups. Some say 9, some 10. Some say 0.

For instance, you only find 9 of the 10 commandments in the New Testament listed. Whenever the commandments are referred to they don’t include the Sabbath. And, of course, some groups like Seventh-Day Adventists believe Saturday is the correct day, so who knows?

Peace…

Hi ahimsaman72!

The question isn’t so much “who knows?” as “who has the authority to say?”

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi ahimsaman72!

The question isn’t so much “who knows?” as “who has the authority to say?”

In Christ,
Nancy

A-HA!! I knew I would regret saying that! .

Peace…

 

[Matt16_18]

mercygate:

Think about it, Matt. In five-point Calvinism, the Elect are perfect: guaranteed perseverance. They cannot sin. That’s why people say that when somebody who appears to be “saved” backslides, then you know he wasn’t really saved. Perfect perseverance in grace is the “P” of the TULIP.

The Baptists that I know are not Calvinists, they would consider Calvinism to be a heresy because they do not believe that free will is destroyed by irresistible grace. Of course, the Baptists that I know don’t consider their antinomianism to be heresy either.

 

[mercygate]

Matt16_18:

The Baptists that I know are not Calvinists, they would consider Calvinism to be a heresy because they do not believe that free will is destroyed by irresistible grace. Of course, the Baptists that I know don’t consider their antinomianism to be heresy either.

A Baptist not a Calvinist? You must have encountered Free Will Baptists. But FWBs are not “officially” antinomian. But then, that’s the heartache of idiorhythmic theology.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

A Baptist not a Calvinist? You must have encountered Free Will Baptists. But FWBs are not “officially” antinomian. But then, that’s the heartache of idiorhythmic theology.

My brethren Southern Baptists are not 5 point Calvinists. Total depravity - yes. Unconditional election - no. Limited atonement - no. Irresistible Grace - yes and no (depending on the person). Perseverance of the Saints - yes and no (depending on the individual).

From the Baptist Faith and Message (official statement of beliefs from the Southern Baptist Convention at www.sbc.net)

“Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God’s sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.
All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.”

Of course, there are many baptist denominations. The Southern Baptist Churches are by far the most numerous. In recent years, the SBC has been taken over by conservatives in the universities and in leadership. You can see the effect in additions to the BFM of “wives need to be submissive to their husbands”, which was not an original statement from the 1963 version.

Peace…

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

My brethren Southern Baptists are not 5 point Calvinists.** Total depravity** - yes. Unconditional election - no. Limited atonement - no. Irresistible Grace - yes and no (depending on the person). Perseverance of the Saints - yes and no (depending on the individual).

.

TIP o’ the TULIP to ye, me bruther! :tiphat:

 

[ahimsaman72]

TIP o’ the TULIP to ye, me bruther! :tiphat:

Good morning sister mercygate!!



Now you can say you’ve learned something extraordinary about your Baptist friends!

Peace…

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

Good morning sister mercygate!!



Now you can say you’ve learned something extraordinary about your Baptist friends!

Peace…

But the point was that with unconditional election and guaranteed perseverance, the Commandments would be utterly pointless. The condition would be a-nomian rather than anti-nomian. The “law” would be Christ. There’s a certain logic here, for sure. It’s just that the witness of life doesn’t frequently bear it out in practice.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

But the point was that with unconditional election and guaranteed perseverance, the Commandments would be utterly pointless. The condition would be a-nomian rather than anti-nomian. The “law” would be Christ. There’s a certain logic here, for sure. It’s just that the witness of life doesn’t frequently bear it out in practice.

From the Calvinist’s I have spoken with - they would say that just because God elects one to salvation doesn’t mean that person can live however they want to. They are still responsible to keep the “law” and live the Christian life. The strange thing is that no one knows truly if they are the ones elected or not. That seems rather fatalistic to me.

Peace…

 

[Ignatius]

IGreetings Catholic brethren and sistren,

My question comes from another post talking about missing Mass on purpose, and it being a mortal sin. The main reason givenon the other thread is because Jesus is there (in the Eucharist) and skipping out on Mass = skipping out on Jesus.

…it’s almost like you’re saying. Jesus is in this church at this particular time and can’t be anywhere else. If you don’t go to mass, you won’t be anywhere near God. Isn’t he everywhere? I mean, not to say that everyone ought to skip mass/church every 5 seconds because “God is everywhere.”

Hi Curious,

If you lived in the time when Jesus was here on earth in the flesh, would you say, “well God is everywhere, so why do I need to be near Him?” Even though God is everywhere, he was there in a more substantial way. I’ll hazard a guess that you would hasten to be near Him. Well, Jesus is present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, just as He was during His earthly mission. So we hasten to be near Him. A good book on this is ‘The Lambs Supper’, by Dr. Scott Hauhn. It gives a much more thorough and clear explanation than I can. I hope that this helps you to understand the Catholic perspective.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord.

 

[Matt16_18]

ahimsaman72:

From the Calvinist’s I have spoken with - they would say that just because God elects one to salvation doesn’t mean that person can live however they want to. They are still responsible to keep the “law” and live the Christian life.

And Southern Baptists do NOT believe that keeping the moral law is necessary for one’s salvation.
Baptist Faith and Message:

“Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will NEVER fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

The quote from the Baptist Faith and Message is the foundation of the Baptist understanding of OSAS, an understanding of OSAS that really is distinct from the Calvinist understanding of OSAS. The Baptists assert that once a man gets “saved” that there is NO sin that he could commit that would make him lose his salvation. NO sin includes the sin of being unrepentant for mortal sins committed after a man is “saved”.

Antinomianism is the is the mistaken belief that a Christian can die in unrepentant mortal sin and still be saved. The heresy of antinomianism is rampant not only among Southern Baptists, it is also rampant among many nondenominational fundamentalists.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Matt16_18:

And Southern Baptists do NOT believe that keeping the moral law is necessary for one’s salvation.

That’s true. I never said they did. I said they believe that doesn’t mean they can live however they want to. They should still live a holy life.

The quote from the Baptist Faith and Message is the foundation of the Baptist understanding of OSAS, an understanding of OSAS that really is distinct from the Calvinist understanding of OSAS. The Baptists assert that once a man gets “saved” that there is NO sin that he could commit that would make him lose his salvation. NO sin includes the sin of being unrepentant for mortal sins committed after a man is “saved”.

Antinomianism is the is the mistaken belief that a Christian can die in unrepentant mortal sin and still be saved. The heresy of antinomianism is rampant not only among Southern Baptists, it is also rampant among many nondenominational fundamentalists.

Yes, I’m very familiar with the BFM. How is the OSAS belief by Baptists a different concept than the Calvinist position of the same belief? Yes, I believe what the Baptists assert about OSAS.

Peace…