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regression
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Yes, Jesus is the only way to the father. We ask the saints / Mary to pray to Jesus for us (not bypassing him).
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kalt
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If I ask my friends for forgiveness or help, I’m worshipping them? And if I simply say thank you?
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kalt
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He is the only mediator. If you pray that I will pray for you, that is an intercessory prayer.
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promethius
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**Romans 8:27 – **Because the Holy Spirit is on our side, does not mean that the saints aren’t.
Romans 8:34 – Because Jesus pleads our salvation to God, does not mean that the saints do not echo Jesus’ will or that they are not likewise capable of asking for grace from God.
Hebrews 7:25 – Jesus saves (we know that). He also intercedes. None of this is exclusive to the intercession of saints.
Job 16:19 – has nothing to do with intercession whatsoever
1 John 2:1 – discusses salvation, not intercession. Even so, it does not indicate that the saints can’t intercede.
The bottom line is, Dyluck, if you have ever asked someone for something or thanked them, you have prayed to them. What we have to break is this one dimensional view of prayer that harms faith life and limits the breadth of the Kingdom of God.
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Bill_Pick
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1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
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sambos671
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Isn’t the Mount of Transfiguration different? I mean did Jesus ask Moses and Elijah to appear? It seems he went up and they appeared. He spoke with them. Did he petition them? It doesn’t seem Jesus prayed to any saint. Can petitioning a saint be like what happend with Saul at Endor?
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dyluck
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Hi Kalt,He is the only mediator. If you pray that I will pray for you, that is an intercessory prayer.
See though, that doesn’t explain praying to saints.
To sum up what I understood you said is praying that someone else will pray for me, not praying TO someone else that they would pray for me.
So let’s say I do pray that you pray for me. I would pray to God and ask him that you pray for me also. I do not see that as being bad; however, the alternitive would be eyes closed, knelt down at my bed “Dear Kalt, please pray for me”. Asking you in person to pray for me is not prayer, it is a request for you to pray to God for me.
Communicating with those whom are physically dead is boarderline necromancy no?
According to my study on Catholic practice,
“Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ…” Pg. 249-250, #957
I mean, biblically Saints are ALL believers, not specific ones. That isn’t the point I am making here, but we have communion with Christ without intersessory prayer to or from saints but strenghened by fellowship of those whom are still alive!
“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:16
1 Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
I think the key here too is nobody other then God whom is Soverign can answer prayer weather someone is dead or alive.
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dyluck
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See, though, this is my point. The bible clearly indicates that prayer is something concidered to be a form of worship.
Bible says to pray to God through Christ but does not say to pray to saints and then doctrines are developed out of something man decided to do and base it on “well the bible doesn’t say not too”. I believe this could be dangerous as it could be concidered Idolitary to God. Someone is being esteemed other then God.
By asking someone in person to pray for you is not prayer, it is a prayer request… im assuming Catholics have deemed the act of prayer requests as a form of prayer to the person you are requesting it from? If you pray to that person, then yes you are praying to them in in jepardy of Idolatry.
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regression
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Look up the word “pray”:
google.com/search?q=define%3Apray&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a&safe=activeIt doesn’t just mean to pray to God. For example, if someone tells me they saw a good movie and I respond, “Pray tell, what was it about”, I am not praying to that person, I am asking him to tell me about the movie.
We are not praying to dead people. When a person dies and their soul goes to heaven, they are alive in Christ.
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dyluck
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See the difference here is Jesus is the only one with the right and power to call out HIS people. Mosus and Elijah were not being prayed too… Came only because of there will of God… There was discussion with them. Through Christ… Not prayer
Then look what happens. Peter suggests to build alters to all three… yet God spoke while Peter was still speeking and said " This is my beloved son with whom I am well-pleased. LISTEN TO HIM"… Nothing about Mosus and Elijiah.
Mosus and Elijiah are simply servints of God and beckon to His will.
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dyluck
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regression. I’m sorry, are you trying to reason with the english word “pray” and its multipule meaning for argument to a theological debate? The greek word “proseuche” (pray) and variences are specifically “SUPPLICATE, WORSHIP”Look up the word “pray”:
google.com/search?q=define%3Apray&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
It doesn’t just mean to pray to God. For example, if someone tells me they saw a good movie and I respond, “Pray tell, what was it about”, I am not praying to that person, I am asking him to tell me about the movie.
We are not praying to dead people. When a person dies and their soul goes to heaven, they are alive in Christ.
strongsnumbers.com/greek/4336.htm
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regression
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What I am trying to explain is “pray to saints / Mary” is how it is often stated, but what is really going on is asking them to intercede for us. I can understand how someone who is not Catholic can see: Catholics pray to God, Catholics worship God. Catholics pray to saints / Mary therefore Catholics worship saints / Mary. That isn’t true.
I will ask Mary or the saints to pray for me. I am asking them to intercede. That is referred to as praying to saints / Mary.
I worship God / pray to God and ask Mary / saints to pray for me.
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dyluck
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But then now we go full circle in terms of Jesus is the only one whom interceeds on our behalf.
Praying is a form of worship though. If you close your eyes and utter requests to people who have passed on, you are no longer talking with them, but entering a medium. In this sense you are requesting intersession to someone other then Christ whom is the ONLY way to the father.
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Soutane
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Wrong.That is YOUR personal interpretation of Catholic prayer and the Communion of Saints.Perception is NOT everything.You are looking at us with eyes skewed by Protestant tradition amd dogma.It is IMPOSSIBLE to worship anyone or anything by accident.Have a little faith in our Lord to understand the difference.We’ve charitably explained prayer to the Saints to you and you keep insisting that we are worshipping them.Who would know better?Us or you?Do you think we’re lying to you?.It would be the same thing if I accused you of worshipping a book-the Bible and you denied it and I kept insisting that",No!You really do."Are you listening to us or are you going to continue insisting that we worship the created rather than the Creator?If you are,I won’t waste my time nor my breath on you.But then now we go full circle in terms of Jesus is the only one whom interceeds on our behalf.
Praying is a form of worship though. If you close your eyes and utter requests to people who have passed on, you are no longer talking with them, but entering a medium. In this sense you are requesting intersession to someone other then Christ whom is the ONLY way to the father.
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dyluck
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Isaiah 2:22
Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils;For why should he be esteemed?
Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils;For why should he be esteemed?
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regression
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Sorry, I should have been clearer. See my post number 21 in this thread. I am not saying Marry / the saints replaces Jesus as a mediator. I ask Mary / the saints to pray to Jesus for me.But then now we go full circle in terms of Jesus is the only one whom interceeds on our behalf.
Praying is a form of worship though. If you close your eyes and utter requests to people who have passed on, you are no longer talking with them, but entering a medium. In this sense you are requesting intersession to someone other then Christ whom is the ONLY way to the father.
This article explains this much more eloquently than I can:
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
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Soutane
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I guess I was right.This poster has no intention whatsoever of listening to us.Adios.
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sambos671
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Is it really fair to equate prayer the modern conspet with an archaic english vernacular of the word? Prayer in the modern context
Prayer in the archaic context
And even from a Catholic perspective from the Latin
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and then over time the consept was picked up by the Latin word Orare. Or to speak so with the similtude of speaking. So for the etymology to properly be assertained in a Catholic sence we are entreating by speaking (with God or the saints (dead)). So the used argument that Saints are not dead is a disingenuous argument. Simply because their bodies are indeed dead in the context of death. The condition of their spirits is irrelevant when comparing to the Mosaic law forbidding speaking with the dead. The sence in the Mosaic law is that their bodies are dead as well. thought the plight of the person spirit is unknown. The fact that a christian is not dead as in the 2nd death is irrelevant to the issue because their bodies are indeed dead and decaying. Moses would have understood this in the law and would have differentiated between speaking with 2nd dead people and living believers. But no he doesn’t. He simply forbids speaking with the dead as can be seen in the book of Maccabees. One of the reasons the Hammer had to pettition God to forgive his men because of their idolatry. So prayer is speak. And Moses forbids speaking with the dead.
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kalt
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We believe that the Saints in Heaven are alive. Asking them to pray for us is not different from asking friends to pray for us–except that they are in Heaven, of course.
No.
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dyluck
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Woah woah woah… hold on there tiger, guns a blazing.
I am mearly challenging a doctrine. Very little has anyone given me substantial biblical evidence that praying/requesting intersession from dead Saints is acceptable to God… This has nothing to do with perception my friend.
The bible, although interperited different still only has 1 truth in the end.
You are accusing me of having skewed perception yet unwilling to challenge your own doctrine and dogma for search of Truth. The perception I get is that you are unwilling to challenge your doctrine and therefor just as skewed as you blame me for. John says Test the spirit… Use the bible to sharpen iron, reprove, exort and rebuke…
I never said you were worshiping saints; however, the same word “thrown around” (prayer) is being used and it IS a form of worship. How else do you want me to explain it.
Nobody thinks you are lieing. People can believe something so much it is completely real to them. Clearly praying to saints is something you believe so much, it is real and truth to you; yet when someone challenges that, instead of giving God breathed scrpture, you argue with a sharp tongue.
I am humbly asking a question and when given an answer that doesn’t make sense, I challenge it with scrpture and continue to wait for an answer. If you believe you are wasting your “breath” please by all means, move on to a different thread. Otherwise, please respect me as I have respected everyone here by giving honest answers and honest challenges.
~Dyluck
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