Isn't prayer to saints idolitary?

[ababbidg]

This is what Jesus has to say about those in heaven being alive or dead:
Matthew 22:31-32 And concerning the ressurection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob are in heaven and Jesus still considers them to be alive.

 

[promethius]

But you don’t find the Jews building a reliquary in the temple and start a devotion to it.

hate to bring this back up… but what was stored by the Jews inside the arc of the covenant? (hint: relics)

The Holy Spirit works. I trust him not a relic.

And what about when the Holy Spirit chooses to work through a medium such as water or an object such as a relic, all for the greater glory of God? Do you trust the Holy Spirit to work in that way as well? It is not fair of us to impose limitations such as “I trust the Holy Spirit as long as it only acts in ways I think are appropriate.”

If a relic renders holy miracles which bring Glory to God, then it is God’s will being done and who are we to object?

 

[promethius]

Alright lets clear things up a little bit. There are two deaths. A physical one and a spiritual one. Moses isn’t regarding the second one but the first. Have all the saints that are currently in heaven died the first death? No there Elijah and Enoch but the rest have. So the fact that they are alive and waiting the resurrection has no effect on their state with the first death. got it?

I think we need to clear another thing up too. We’ve already discussed the difference between communication with the dead as a medium does and intercessory prayer as catholics do, and in fact pointed out that since Christ could not sin and was even conversational with the Saints that the interpretation of Moses’ word that you’re holding to does not mean what you intending.

We should also add to the fact that when Moses wrote, the veil was closed and “death” meant something entirely different then than it does now.

 

[kalt]

Alright lets clear things up a little bit. There are two deaths. A physical one and a spiritual one. Moses isn’t regarding the second one but the first. Have all the saints that are currently in heaven died the first death? No there Elijah and Enoch but the rest have. So the fact that they are alive and waiting the resurrection has no effect on their state with the first death. got it?

I know what you’re saying. It’s not that I don’t understand that you consider the Saints in Heaven dead. What I don’t understand is why, as a Catholic, you reject Catholic teaching on the Saints.

What would you do if as a pennance you were told by a priest after Confession to say the Hail Mary?

 

[SonofMonica]

I know what you’re saying. It’s not that I don’t understand that you consider the Saints in Heaven dead. What I don’t understand is why, as a Catholic, you reject Catholic teaching on the Saints.

If you scroll up, I believe sambos basically said that he has recently come back to the church, but is having trouble with particular church teachings.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This question is directed for the Catholics out there.

Prayer is highly regarded as a form of worship.

Just curious how you guys/gals biblically justify praying to Saints.

Gabriel of 12;
The body of Jesus Christ has conquered death, for not even death can seperate his Catholic Church, for in the communion of Saints (the holy ones) the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic Church militant communes (prays,kneels, worship) with the Catholic Church Triumphant in heaven. The body of Jesus Christ is incarnate always, Jesus proved this by his resurrection, the Church is fully human on earth, in communion with the Church in heaven fully divine.

Hebrews 12:1
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us 2 and persevere in running the race that lies before us
2
while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith. For the sake of the joy that lay before him he endured the cross, despising its shame, and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God.

(Ephesians 3:18** For this reason (I kneel before the Father),
15
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named],
16
that he may grant you in accord with the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner self,
17
and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, rooted and grounded in love,
18
**may have strength to comprehend with all the holy ones **what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19
and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20
**Now to him who is able to accomplish far more than all we ask or imagine, by the power at work within us, **
21
to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, **forever and ever. Amen.) ****

 

[dyluck]

Gabriel of 12;
The body of Jesus Christ has conquered death, for not even death can seperate his Catholic Church, for in the communion of Saints (the holy ones) the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic Church militant communes (prays,kneels, worship) with the Catholic Church Triumphant in heaven. The body of Jesus Christ is incarnate always, Jesus proved this by his resurrection, the Church is fully human on earth, in communion with the Church in heaven fully divine.

Hebrews 12:1
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us 2 and persevere in running the race that lies before us
2
while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith. For the sake of the joy that lay before him he endured the cross, despising its shame, and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God.

(Ephesians 3:18** For this reason (I kneel before the Father**),
15
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named],
16
that he may grant you in accord with the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner self,
17
and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, rooted and grounded in love,
18
**may have strength to comprehend with all the holy ones **what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19
and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20
**Now to him who is able to accomplish far more than all we ask or imagine, by the power at work within us, **
21
to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, **forever and ever. Amen.) **

Hello Gabriel

Great passages. I was looking for the ephesians one actually; however, they have nothing to do with praying to or communicatng with Saints.
The cloud of witness is for sure angels/creation. The intention of that verse is “carefull about the sin you fall into, you are being watched… watched by every dominion, throne and principality… (you have nowhere to hide)”

Ephesians. Specifically is talking about the supremacy of God and about knowing the fullnes of His atributes. If you look there especially verse 18, we can see what purpose God has in what he does. First God gives you strength, through the holy spirit, so that Christ can dwell within you through faith. Then give you, along with all your brothers/sisters (saints) alike, knowledge of Him and to know the greatness of God (bredthe, lenth, height and depth). Then to also know the fullness of love of Christ and the fullness of God. This is EXACTLY what this passage is takling about. Knowing God… NOT communicating with the saints in Heaven. Read the passage over, and again and again.

 

[dyluck]

Also note I don’t have a problem with intecessory prayer what I have a problem with is the prayers I quoted

Note only is the prayer unfailing but the saint is to obtain by his own ability. Doesn’t fit in with that quote from the CCC.

I think you are a calvinist in-cognito

You seem to have a great understanding of the total depravity of man and the only thing man deserves is hell. The only merit is the merit of one, Jesus Christ, that we are able to bodly stand before God completly justified.

 

[dyluck]

hate to bring this back up… but what was stored by the Jews inside the arc of the covenant? (hint: relics)

The ten commandments were not worshiped though. There were certianly holy objects especially in the old testament. Look now though. Jesus fufilled the law. We don’t need to have an ark to carry the temple of God. WE are the temple of God. Does that mean YOU are a relic? Understand that there is a fine line of relics and idolitary.

And what about when the Holy Spirit chooses to work through a medium such as water or an object such as a relic, all for the greater glory of God?

Tell me where this happens in the bible and if people begin to now esteem and almost worship this object or created thing.
Remember, even when angels came before men and men started worshiping the angel, the angel said for them not to. Nothing is worthy of esteem other then God.

Do you trust the Holy Spirit to work in that way as well? It is not fair of us to impose limitations such as “I trust the Holy Spirit as long as it only acts in ways I think are appropriate.”

Nobody is imposing limitation. The holy spirit does work in many ways. But the holy spirit does not work in ways which will lead people away from the Glory of God (i.e. potential for someone to commit idolitary).

If a relic renders holy miracles which bring Glory to God, then it is God’s will being done and who are we to object?

Ok, lets talk about stuff like stigmatas or statues of Mary crying blood. (don’t get me started on statues of people)… Anyway… Where in the bible do we see any benifit from causing useless things to happen to inanimate objects? I do not deny the happenings of these things, i just question where they come from. Simply because in Galatians 6:17 when paul describes what so many people claim to have “Stigmatas” wasn’t litteral signs of blood or wounds of Christ… Paul was explaining to the congregation about the fact that Christ is litterally in him/onto his body #1. 2 Corinthians 4:10 which then is backed up by: Rom 6:5, Rom 8:36. That indeed he is owned, marked for Christ.

 

[promethius]

The ten commandments were not worshiped though.

And neither are relics. The point was, God saw fit that relics should be kept as reminders of the faith, among other things. If you’re saying that now relics are WRONG, then you’re implying that God’s will is not either universal, perfect, or eternal. In other words, you’re implying that God is not God.

Jesus fufilled the law. We don’t need to have an ark to carry the temple of God.

“Carry[ing] the temple of God” was not the ultimate purpose of the ark. Rather it housed the tabernacle, which was incredibly different than a temple.

WE are the temple of God. Does that mean YOU are a relic?

There is a lot you need to learn about relics. If I were to die and be declared a saint, my bones (or body, if I were an incorruptable) would certainly be first class relics.

Understand that there is a fine line of relics and idolitary.

Show me that in the bible? The reality is that there is a very clear and distinct line which divides veneration of God’s chosen relics and adoration of an idol. It is a line demarked by intent: you cannot commit idolatry and not INTEND to be committing said sin. It simply. isn’t. possible.

This idea that there’s a fine line between veneration and adoration is a creation of your mind that you have added to your personal fallable interpretation of the scriptures. If I don’t accept your interpretations, why do you expect me to accept your additions to scripture as well?

Tell me where this happens in the bible and if people begin to now esteem and almost worship this object or created thing.

There is no “almost worship” of idols in the catholic church. There are also two examples of relics in the scriptures which have already been cited in this thread. Read it again.

Remember, even when angels came before men and men started worshiping the angel, the angel said for them not to. Nothing is worthy of esteem other then God.

ACTUALLY, the angel you refer to came before ONE man, John. Here’s the verse:

REV 19: 10And I fell down before his feet, to adore him. And he saith to me: See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, who have the testimony of Jesus. Adore God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

What actually occurs is that John attempted to adore the angel rather than venerate, and the angel pointed out that flaw saying that God is worthy of adoration, not him. That is correct. You, however, changed the wording to say that “nothign is worthy of esteem other then [sic] God.”

I wonder, by whose authority did you modify the scriptures?

The holy spirit does work in many ways. But the holy spirit does not work in ways which will lead people away from the Glory of God (i.e. potential for someone to commit idolitary).

Point to one demonstrable case of idol WORSHIP in the church? You know what we call such a claim without any factual basis to back it up? Anti-Catholic bigotry.

Ok, lets talk about stuff like stigmatas or statues of Mary crying blood. (don’t get me started on statues of people)… Anyway… Where in the bible do we see any benifit from causing useless things to happen to inanimate objects? I do not deny the happenings of these things, i just question where they come from. Simply because in Galatians 6:17 when paul describes what so many people claim to have “Stigmatas” wasn’t litteral signs of blood or wounds of Christ… Paul was explaining to the congregation about the fact that Christ is litterally in him/onto his body #1. 2 Corinthians 4:10 which then is backed up by: Rom 6:5, Rom 8:36. That indeed he is owned, marked for Christ.

I find it interesting that you call items and events which bring glory to God “useless.” There are many people who find such events deep and meaningful, and are called into closer communion with God by them. I’m not even going to address this point, it’s between you and God that you’ve called His will “useless”

 

[promethius]

I think you are a calvinist in-cognito

You seem to have a great understanding of the total depravity of man and the only thing man deserves is hell. The only merit is the merit of one, Jesus Christ, that we are able to bodly stand before God completly justified.

The idea of total depravity as preached by many protestants is likewise a human invention which came about in the last several hundred years. It is unscriptural and illogical.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello Gabriel

Great passages. I was looking for the ephesians one actually; however, they have nothing to do with praying to or communicatng with Saints.
The cloud of witness is for sure angels/creation. The intention of that verse is “carefull about the sin you fall into, you are being watched… watched by every dominion, throne and principality… (you have nowhere to hide)”

Ephesians. Specifically is talking about the supremacy of God and about knowing the fullnes of His atributes. If you look there especially verse 18, we can see what purpose God has in what he does. First God gives you strength, through the holy spirit, so that Christ can dwell within you through faith. Then give you, along with all your brothers/sisters (saints) alike, knowledge of Him and to know the greatness of God (bredthe, lenth, height and depth). Then to also know the fullness of love of Christ and the fullness of God. This is EXACTLY what this passage is takling about. Knowing God… NOT communicating with the saints in Heaven. Read the passage over, and again and again.

Gabriel of 12;
Before you begin to interpret scripture maybe a correct understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints are in order; Then you can see the spiritual realities revealed from scripture, instead of a ink on a page interpretation. You see Jesus is God incarnate, fully human and fully divine. So is his Sacred Word, the Communion of Saints speaks from his divine side.

Prayer to Saints is not done in the way you misunderstand; You see the Saints in heaven are not dead, they are just alive to God, as you are to anyone else living on earth but more alive than you and I are. So we ask our Saints in the communion of Saints to pray for us from heaven; the following are some scriptures for your interest and reflection. Please dont look for Jesus to speak to you from scripture and say “oh, yeah the Catholic Church is right, you must pray to the saints”, the teaching of the communion of saints is taught throughout scripture; please see below;

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Are you not misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God?
25 When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.
26 As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’?
27 He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.”

Luke 20:34 Jesus said to them, “The children of this age marry and remarry;
35 but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36 They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise. 9
37 That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;
cont.
There is only body of Jesus Christ;
Hear is Jesus conversing with Moses and Elijah by eyewitnesses long after God had taken them. Just as all Saints and Martyrs are before the presence of God; God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Mark 9:2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves. And he was transfigured before them,
3 and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no fuller on earth could bleach them.
4 Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Here Jesus promises the good thief, that “today” he will be with him in paradise;

Luke 23:39-Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”
40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Revelations 14:1 Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, 2 and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
4… They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.

Revelations 14:13 I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” said the Spirit, “let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them.”

Revelations 21:33 I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them (as their God).
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, (for) the old order has passed away.”
5 The one who sat on the throne 5 said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me, "They are accomplished. 6 I (am) the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.
7 The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.

Revelations 8: 1 When he broke open the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven 2 for about half an hour.
2 And I saw that the seven angels who stood before God were given seven trumpets.
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Revelations 11: 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
12: 1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;5380244:

Gabriel of 12;
cont.

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 4:44 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore, it says: “He ascended 3 on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men.”

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,
25 of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,

Romans 8: 16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Here we have the promise of being partakers of Jesus divine nature;

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power.
4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.
John 15:1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit.

3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.

Not even death can separate us from God, this follows in the biblical teaching of the communion of Saints;

Romans 8:35 What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Zooey]

I’m from a Southern Baptist background and think this area is completely misunderstood by Evangelicals. Evangelicals ask friends and family to pray for them. With Catholics, the saints are alive in Heaven and are being asked to pray for us and come to our support. They aren’t prayed to in worship as Jesus and God would be.

Hi Kalt,

See though, that doesn’t explain praying to saints.

To sum up what I understood you said is praying that someone else will pray for me, not praying TO someone else that they would pray for me.

So let’s say I do pray that you pray for me. I would pray to God and ask him that you pray for me also. I do not see that as being bad; however, the alternitive would be eyes closed, knelt down at my bed “Dear Kalt, please pray for me”. Asking you in person to pray for me is not prayer, it is a request for you to pray to God for me.

Oh, but it is; modern English is simply so impoverished that we often hear it used improperly–which is,with respect, you are using English improperly. (My mama was an English teacher, so I :nerd:know this stuff:curtsey.
“Pray, sir, lend me a dollar”=“Buddy, can you spare a dime?” Which is **not **praying (unless you think all street people down on their luck are praying to you & me).

dyluck:

Communicating with those whom are physically dead is boarderline necromancy no?

No. Not dead; alive & present with the Lord. More alive than you & I can imagine.

but we have communion with Christ without intersessory prayer to or from saints but strenghened by fellowship of those whom are still alive.

And the saints are more alive than anyone else!! Alive with Our Lord!!!

But then now we go full circle in terms of Jesus is the only one whom interceeds on our behalf.

Intercessory prayer is the subject…you just aren’t hearing us!

Praying is a form of worship though. If you close your eyes and utter requests to people who have passed on, you are no longer talking with them, but entering a medium.

:nope: Not at all.

So, Kalt, where are these person’s bodies?

I mean Jesus is the only one with a glorified body risen to heaven completely resurected.
The saints are dead in body still and alive in spirt whereas Christ is not dead in body or spirit at all.

Yeah, well, I’m not talking to their bodies. Do you talk to bodies? Like, "Joe’s ears, I can’t hear Joe’s voice; could you tell him to speak up—Oh!! Sorry, forgot you can’t talk. Could you ask Joe…uch:Nope, just have to do without old Joe, too bad, nice guy, but he mumbles…(wanders off, never to see his best friend again because, well…because Joe mumbles)…

 

[Monica4316]

This question is directed for the Catholics out there.

Prayer is highly regarded as a form of worship.

Just curious how you guys/gals biblically justify praying to Saints.

we ask the Saints to pray for us just like we ask our friends on earth. All the prayers eventually go to God and He decides how they are answered.

Prayer is just a form of communication… it’s not worship.

To us, worship is offering the Mass. We would never offer the Eucharist to anyone other than God, though we offer it for various intentions.

God bless

 

[Zooey]

Another thing. Do you know what “to pray” traditionally meant? It actually means to simply request something.

"I pray thee, good Mercutio, let’s retire" (Romeo and Juliet, Act III, Sc. 1, 1)

Romeo wasn’t worshiping Mercutio in this verse. He was simply speaking to him. It might be odd that I’m using Shakespeare to make a religious point here, but since you’ve brought up the meaning of the word “prayer” in this thread several times, I think you need to hear it used outside Protestant circles.

:clapping::clapping: There you go! Now, Shakespeare used the English language the way it should be!!! :hug1:for the quotation!!

Indeed, as a lawyer, I can tell you that at the end of every affirmative pleading there is a section called the “Prayer” where we are asking the Court to do something for us.

When we pray to the saints, we are asking them to pray for us. They are not 100% man, they are souls united with God and subject to every grace imaginable.

I am not Catholic but do not necessarily see anything wrong with it. You ask living people to pray for you don’t you? Do you believe in soul extinction and that dead people no longer exist? Catholics and others believe in the Communion of the saints (we are all part of the Church). Also, look in scripture (Book of Rev) and see the prayers of the saints mentioned.

A misconception among Protestants is that when Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox pray to Saints they are asking saints to heal them and so on. This may happen but it is an abuse. What they ask is that the saint pray for them over an issue. Remember from scripture that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. All the petitions I have looked at do just that.

Before you (or anyone else mentions the use of saint’s relics in healing) you may want to also look in the Book of Acts where it mentions articles being touched to the apostles and then healing people (relics).

I guess the Catholics are following biblical practices

:aok:

You know…I just came from the prayer intentions forum, & I kinda wish you all could hear me sometimes…I think it would maybe help people past this. My prayers are really…I’m very informal.
Like there was a request for prayers for a family that had just lost a mom & her newborn, & what popped into my head, was to say, “General Jackson [Stonewall, you know?]. I realize this isn’t your specialty, but since you lost your 1st wife & child like this, could you pray for this family?”
And Teresa of Avila gets all my “don’t know the right saint, I know you do, could you mention this to him/her & pray together for it?” prayers.
Sad people who have lost a pet, I ask my daddy (who out-Francised St Francis w/animals) to please pray for them.
And like that…about as close to “worship” as I am to a millionaire. 'Cause I tend to talk to folks like that…whether they are present in the body or present with the Lord. Yes, I pray formal prayers, too. But the ones ‘on the run’ are like any dear friend I might ask prayers from…I guess like I amleaving a message on their answering machines, which is the same “form”. You know??

 

[sambos671]

hate to bring this back up… but what was stored by the Jews inside the arc of the covenant? (hint: relics)

And what about when the Holy Spirit chooses to work through a medium such as water or an object such as a relic, all for the greater glory of God? Do you trust the Holy Spirit to work in that way as well? It is not fair of us to impose limitations such as “I trust the Holy Spirit as long as it only acts in ways I think are appropriate.”

If a relic renders holy miracles which bring Glory to God, then it is God’s will being done and who are we to object?

The 10 commandments and the rod of Aaron. But the presents of God was upon the ark of the covenant. So there you go. However, the relics are little over played in the middle ages one critic said that all the nails of the original cross that pierced our lord’s hands an feet were enough to shoe all the horses in saxony!. So, whats the point?

 

[sambos671]

If you scroll up, I believe sambos basically said that he has recently come back to the church, but is having trouble with particular church teachings.

Yep thats pretty much it.

 

[sambos671]

I think you are a calvinist in-cognito

You seem to have a great understanding of the total depravity of man and the only thing man deserves is hell. The only merit is the merit of one, Jesus Christ, that we are able to bodly stand before God completly justified.

But for the truth of the Blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and the Truth of Church history. I would have remained a Calvinist, yes. However, I’m not incognito. Though I understand Calvin well, I’m Catholic struggeling with aspects of the Catholic faith.