Isn't prayer to saints idolitary?

[SonofMonica]

Sambos–

The church will never force you to believe that a particular relic is going to do X, Y and Z for you. But the Bible and extra-biblical Tradition are filled with examples of people with faith touching the personal effects or garments, or even bones of Holy Men and women and being healed. This is a pious devotion, and if folks do a pious act out of faith in God and not superstition, it can hardly be condemned. Yes, during the middle ages, a lot of folks probably did get superstitious, and relics did become a commodity to be trafficked, and folks perpetrated frauds.

But let’s take a step backwards: that is what Satan and the world do to every aspect of Christianity, though, isn’t it? They take something Godly and beautiful and pervert it–they create a counterfeit. Look at how many forms and beliefs about Holy Communion are out there. Look at how many beliefs there are about how to be happy. Look at how many beliefs about sex and marriage there are. I’m assuming you recognized something true and holy about the Church compared to other denomination(s), or compared to not having religion at all, or you wouldn’t have come back. The world is full of counterfeits–counterfeit religion, counterfeit happiness, counterfeit sex, counterfeit marriages. It doesn’t mean the authentic does not exist. And it certainly doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

This question is directed for the Catholics out there.

Prayer is highly regarded as a form of worship.

Just curious how you guys/gals biblically justify praying to Saints.

How Protestants can say they go by the “Bible alone”, yet don’t understand what they read referring to the Saints in Heaven. How do you interpret this?
****Tobit 12:12, 15: “I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you…I am Raphael, one of the seven Holy Angels who present the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One”.

****It is a clear instance of angels interceding for us and somehow being involved in our prayers to God—an important aspect of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. The angel Raphael, would have to have some knowledge of the prayers of the saints in order to present them to God.
Furthermore, it appears probable that direct reference is made to this passage in both Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sambos–

The church will never force you to believe that a particular relic is going to do X, Y and Z for you. But the Bible and extra-biblical Tradition are filled with examples of people with faith touching the personal effects or garments, or even bones of Holy Men and women and being healed. This is a pious devotion, and if folks do a pious act out of faith in God and not superstition, it can hardly be condemned. Yes, during the middle ages, a lot of folks probably did get superstitious, and relics did become a commodity to be trafficked, and folks perpetrated frauds.

But let’s take a step backwards: that is what Satan and the world do to every aspect of Christianity, though, isn’t it? They take something Godly and beautiful and pervert it–they create a counterfeit. Look at how many forms and beliefs about Holy Communion are out there. Look at how many beliefs there are about how to be happy. Look at how many beliefs about sex and marriage there are. I’m assuming you recognized something true and holy about the Church compared to other denomination(s), or compared to not having religion at all, or you wouldn’t have come back. The world is full of counterfeits–counterfeit religion, counterfeit happiness, counterfeit sex, counterfeit marriages. It doesn’t mean the authentic does not exist. And it certainly doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Gabriel of 12;

The woman with the issue of blood, touched the tassel on Jesus cloak and was healed. Just from her faith as you explained, and her action from her faith made her whole. What is fascinating is that Jesus felt his power leave towards her faith and sought her ought to confirm her healing from her faith. Something to grasp at in prayer without ceasing. Relics are biblical when operated in faith. Man cannot limit God and his power to ink on a page, God lives and is active in his beloved creation.

You and Sambos have a multitude of brothers and sisters waiting for you on earth and in heaven on the other side of the tiber cheering for you both and those like you. We will rejoice with the heavenly angels when you arrive to the Rock.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

How Protestants can say they go by the “Bible alone”, yet don’t understand what they read referring to the Saints in Heaven. How do you interpret this?
****Tobit 12:12, 15: “I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you…I am Raphael, one of the seven Holy Angels who present the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One”.

****It is a clear instance of angels interceding for us and somehow being involved in our prayers to God—an important aspect of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. The angel Raphael, would have to have some knowledge of the prayers of the saints in order to present them to God.
Furthermore, it appears probable that direct reference is made to this passage in both Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4.

Gabriel of 12;

I think protestants wont find “Tobit” in their King James “Version” of the Holy Bible they removed this entire book from the canon? But the 7 Spirits are mentioned in the Book of Revelation but not named individually according to Apostolic Tradition and Judeo Tradition from the book of “Enoch”. At least protestants agreed among themselves not to remove Revelations, James and other New Testament books. So they maintain part of the Truth but not the whole Truth which is the Apostolic full deposit of faith.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Gabriel of 12;

I think protestants wont find “Tobit” in their King James “Version” of the Holy Bible they removed this entire book from the canon? But the 7 Spirits are mentioned in the Book of Revelation but not named individually according to Apostolic Tradition and Judeo Tradition from the book of “Enoch”. At least protestants agreed among themselves not to remove Revelations, James and other New Testament books. So they maintain part of the Truth but not the whole Truth which is the Apostolic full deposit of faith.

That is right Gabriel of 12. I forgot that Tobit is not there. Then if Protestants have a problem with this unrelenting question about idolatry, perhaps they should READ UP on it. To borrow a Catholic’s bible, which really is the “original” book and just read it.

 

[sambos671]

That is right Gabriel of 12. I forgot that Tobit is not there. Then if Protestants have a problem with this unrelenting question about idolatry, perhaps they should READ UP on it. To borrow a Catholic’s bible, which really is the “original” book and just read it.

The current Catholic bible was affirmed in the council of Trent though its clear the the LXX as shown by the Orthodox have more OT books than the Current Catholic bible. Tobit is in both the Orthodox and the Catholic bibles. However, the Jews view of the OT excludes the deuterocanonical books. They’ve listed their books as Torah, Nevi’im, and the Kethbu’im. I always wondered at Josephus listing just the books of the TNK or Tanakh excluding the extra works of the LXX if they changed the OT at the council of Jamnia?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The current Catholic bible was affirmed in the council of Trent though its clear the the LXX as shown by the Orthodox have more OT books than the Current Catholic bible. Tobit is in both the Orthodox and the Catholic bibles. However, the Jews view of the OT excludes the deuterocanonical books. They’ve listed their books as Torah, Nevi’im, and the Kethbu’im. I always wondered at Josephus listing just the books of the TNK or Tanakh excluding the extra works of the LXX if they changed the OT at the council of Jamnia?

St. Athanasius first lists our present twenty-seven New Testamannt Books as such in 367. Disputes still persist concerning several books, almost right up until 397, when the Canon is authoritatively closed.
Protestants do, of course, accept the Traditional Canon of the New Testament. By doing so, they necessarily acknowledged the authority of the Catholic church. If they did not, it is likely that Protestanism would have disappeared like almost all of the old heresies of the first millenium of the Church.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

II was hoping for biblical evidences of this, but there is non, even according to other posters here. This is where i begin to kick against the practice, because it isn’t stemed from the word, but from practices invented then by men.

These Catholic practices you do not believe in were not created by man but rather they were taught to His Apostles from Christ. The Church was here before the New Testament books were brought together. The Catholic Faith is founded on the Church and the Word.
Your faith has just the one.

1 Acts Of Apostles 19

11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

Sounds like relics to me.