Isn't THIS what Jesus COMMANDED?

[forgiveness]

I think Jesus’ message was very clear, and I don’t believe the message is hidden at all. This is what I believe he was saying:

Put simply, [Mt 22:38] You must love your neighbour as yourself.

The choice is between perfection and imperfection. And Jesus presented only one choice: [Mt 4:48] You must be as perfect just as the heavenly Father is perfect.

[Mt 19:21] If you wish to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. [Lk 14:33] None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.

[Lk 6:27] Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [Lk 6:28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. [Lk 6:29] To the man who slaps you on the one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes your cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic. [Lk 6:30] Give to everybody who asks of you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. [Lk 6:31]Treat others as you would like them to treat you.

One must have no fear of renouncing everything.[Jn 14:1] do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God still, and trust in me. [Mt 6:31] Do not say ‘What are we to eat? What are we to drink? How are we to be clothed?" [Mt 6:32] It is the pagans who set they hearts on these things. The choice is between God or money [Mt 6:24] You cannot be the slave of God and money. Money is indeed the root of all evil, and it is the love of money that stops a person from giving it all to the poor as Jesus commanded. [Lk 9:26] For if anyone is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him.

A follower must be at disagreement with anyone willing to settle for imperfection. [Lk 14:26] If any man comes to me without a total detachment from his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes and even his own life too, he cannot be my disciple.

Persecution will come to a follower even from their family. But nothing less can be expected. [Jn 15:20] Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well.

Instead of fighting for first place, a person has to willingly put themself last behind everyone. [Mk 10:42] Among the pagans, their great men make their authority felt. But Jesus said that [Mk 10:44] anyone who wants to be first among you must be the slave to all.

But it is the first hurdle that people find the hardest: renouncing money. That is why Jesus said [Mt 19:28] It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. But as Jesus said [Jn 15:22] If I had not come, if I had not spoken to them, they would have been blameless; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. [Jn 8:47] A child of God listens to the word of God; if you refuse to listen, it is because you are not God’s children.

 

[Makerteacher]

forgiveness:

I think Jesus’ message was very clear, and I don’t believe the message is hidden at all. This is what I believe he was saying:

Put simply, [Mt 22:38] You must love your neighbour as yourself.
.

Um, you left off the FIRST part:

*36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " *‘Love the Lord your God ** with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[2] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it:

 

[forgiveness]

Of course, you are right. But I only had 3000 words. I would have quoted the entire gospels if I had had the space, because it is all the same simple message. But everyone tries to interpret it so that they don’t have to give away their money, for starters, and that is why people say they find it confusing and open to interpretation. And besides, they have the likes of the Pope, among many others, who act as their example, and he himself has gone against Jesus’ word. And surely you know what Jesus said would be a better fate for that person who diobeys even the least of his commandments and teaches others to do the same.

 

[Catholicguy]

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:53-54).

 

[forgiveness]

And that means living a life that is the same as Jesus’, as if that person were Jesus himself. And it would involve receiving the very same treatment as Jesus, but willingly doing so.

[Jn 15:18] If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. [Jn 15:19] If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world, because my choice withdrew you from the world, the world hates you. [Jn 15:20] Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. [Jn 15:21] But it will be on my account that they will do this because they do not know the one who sent me.

[Mt 7:13] Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to perdition is wide and spacious, and many take it; [Mt 7:14] but it is a narrow and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

It does not mean eating a little bit of bread and drinking some wine as people seem to think! It is doing everything he said and becoming just like him.

 

[quintessential5]

forgiveness:

It does not mean eating a little bit of bread and drinking some wine as people seem to think! It is doing everything he said and becoming just like him.

Well actually, both answers are correct. We must do all that he said, that includes eating his real flesh and real blood.

You said earlier that the Pope acts contrary to Jesus’ commands…how so? If you’re going to say he hasn’t given up everything that he owns, I would then ask you how you acquired the computer that you used to post to this forum.

 

[forgiveness]

If a person goes to the ‘Church’ and asks them whether they think they should give away all their possessions and be willing to live on the street, I have no doubt in my mind that they would be advised against it, and that instead they should do with their money what it is that the ‘Church’ are doing, that is use some of the money to do what Jesus said, but not ALL.

They have made people fearful of doing what it was Jesus said, because they themselves have had too much fear to do it. Thereyby they have corrupted the meaning of Jesus’ words and instead, effectively, replaced them with theirs. They have settled for imperfection and made others do so as well, indeed it seems they have managed to make you do so. People are more concerned about defending themselves and their ‘Church’ than they are about defending the words of Jesus himself.

 

[Salmon]

Forgiveness:

And besides, they have the likes of the Pope, among many others, who act as their example, and he himself has gone against Jesus’ word.

Jesus led a community of disciples who held a common purse to be used for the group.

Pope John Paul II has a larger group that has a larger purse. The disbursements from that purse make the Catholic Church the second largest contributor in the world of goods and services to the poor. The first is the government of the United States.

It appears that no good deed should go unpunished in your eyes.

BTW, you have chosen a most curious name to use on this forum.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[forgiveness]

You say ‘Jesus led a community of disciples who held a common purse to be used for the group.’

In fact, his disciples would not have had a purse at all because they had done what he said and given away all their money. Of the two masters, God and money, his disciples had chosen God.

Those who have chosen money, and have a purse, cannot be his disciples. You cannot serve both masters.

 

[Fortiterinre]

Read St. Francis De Sales, Introduction to the Devout Life, for a perspective on living the faith. St. Francis points out that God has put each of us into different circumstances in life and calls us to holiness from there. What would be heroic virtue for one person might be impulsive and foolish for another.

 

[CANman]

Hey Forgiveness, You said :
“In fact, his disciples would not have had a purse at all because they had done what he said and given away all their money. Of the two masters, God and money, his disciples had chosen God.”

The Bible says:
“Some thought that, because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast”; or, that he should give something to the poor.” John 13:29 (RSV)

I wonder which is correct?

 

[Maggie]

forgiveness:

You say ‘Jesus led a community of disciples who held a common purse to be used for the group.’

In fact, his disciples would not have had a purse at all because they had done what he said and given away all their money. Of the two masters, God and money, his disciples had chosen God.

Those who have chosen money, and have a purse, cannot be his disciples. You cannot serve both masters.

Yes, but Christ also said “But now one who has a money bag should take it and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me namely He was counted amoung the wicked and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment.” So that clearly the defense of the faith and the use of collective funds for defense of the faith is scripturally sound. Love of God is the first commandment. One should not forsake God for anything, and if one makes use of money to defend one’s faith then that is not making money a god. If one is saying that any use of money is evil then that seems as though that is making money more powerful than God and is making of it a god more so than proper use of money ever will…

 

[Todd_Easton]

From the early days of the Church there have been men and women who have embraced the radical detachment from the world for the sake of the Kingdom that you suggest, Christians who have embraced what are called the evangelical counsels or counsels of perfection: poverty, chastity and obedience. Here’s a link to an article in the Catholic Encycopedia on the Evangelical Counsels: newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

The desire for Christian perfection has lead many to become members of religious communities or religious orders. The largest Catholic religious orders being the Benedictines, the Carmelites, the Christian Brothers, the Dominicans, the Franciscans, the Jesuits, the Redemptorists, the Salesians, the Sisters of Charity, the Trappists, etc.

Todd

 

[Gratias_Grace]

"The choice is between perfection and imperfection". I will rather say it this way: The choice is to try to get better.

Put simply, [Mt 22:38] You must love your neighbour as yourself YES, but that implies that one is able to love oneself. To much perfectionism can lead to not love, but to judgeing.

**
" [Mt 19:21] If you wish to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. [Lk 14:33] None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions"**

According to CCC 2402 it is not forbidden to own something.: “In the beginning God entrusted the earth and its resources to the common stewardship of mankind to take care of them, master them by labor, and enjoy their fruits.187 The goods of creation are destined for the whole human race. However, the earth is divided up among men to assure the security of their lives, endangered by poverty and threatened by violence. The appropriation of property is legitimate for guaranteeing the freedom and dignity of persons and for helping each of them to meet his basic needs and the needs of those in his charge. It should allow for a natural solidarity to develop between men. " Natural solidarity” means that the one who owns much, don’t keep everything to himself. But a married man with children, don’t sell his house and gives everything away. If he does that he makes himself inresponcible to protect his family. That can’t be right in the eyes of God.

Everything we putin the place of God, (it don’t have to be money) is breaking the first commandment: “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve”.

I think that when we realise that we are created by God who loves us (some forgets), we will be grateful. That gratefulnes will help us to feel loved by God and then to love ourselves. Out of this grows real love for others.

(Please excuse any speling mistakes. English is not my first language).

God Bless!

G.G.

 

[Sheen]

forgiveness:

It does not mean eating a little bit of bread and drinking some wine as people seem to think! It is doing everything he said and becoming just like him.

And Jesus said, "do this in remembrance (anamnesis) of me."* (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25)

*anamnesis-- connotes sacrificial offering; a making present of the reality signified.

“Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, ‘Take and eat; this is my body.’ Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant” (Matthew 26:26-28)

(but this is really getting into a whole 'nother topic)

 

[Funky_Cedars]

forgiveness:

Those who have chosen money, and have a purse, cannot be his disciples. You cannot serve both masters.

from your words, it seems i should praise your demonstration of faith by giving all your things away…but then i must wonder if, in fact, you walked naked off the street into the public library to log on. or have you retained some possessions, like a computer?
if so, will you go to hell for serving mammon?

i have long had problem understanding this issue because while He said what you’ve quoted, J’s also said other, seemingly contrary, things. He said to render unto ceasar what was ceasar’s, implying some endorsement of personal possession. and when J went to Zaccahaeus’ house, Zaccahaeus said he would give only ‘half’ of his possessions to the poor. so despite his intention to retain somewhere near 50% of his things (we was also going to pay anyone he ripped off back four times as much), J still said that he had earned salvation in doing what he did. and then He made that comment about letting the dead bury the dead.
these seem, therefore, to be admonisments not to let anything come between our heart and God, and offer encouragement for the intense response you are referring to without making that an absolute requirement.
also, st Francis, who *did *give everything away, preached to many without saying they were beyond redemption because they still possessed things.
thanks for listening, love and peace, terry

 

[forgiveness]

I met a homeless man today, his grandmother had died a few days ago and he needed money to get to Scotland where she lived in time for her funeral. This man had just ‘recovered’ from jumping off a bridge, so you can imagine how welcome that news was. He went to THREE Catholic ‘Churches’ asking if they would give him some money to get the fare and they all flatly refused. They said that the Church does not give out its money because if they gave it to one person, then everyone would ask, and then they would be left with nothing. So what they did was to refuse all requests outright.

They wouldn’t even give him the money to go to his grandmothers funeral, but they would spend the money doing up their churches and paying for the members of the clergy who work in there to be well kept! Havn’t they read Jesus’ command to give without expecting anything in return, to use their money to make friends? HYPOCRITES!

 

[Salmon]

forgiveness:

I met a homeless man today, his grandmother had died a few days ago and he needed money to get to Scotland where she lived in time for her funeral.

That is indeed sad. Please know that I will pray for him and his family. I deal with homeless people quite often, and not infrequently they display a wide range of mental instability.

This man had just ‘recovered’ from jumping off a bridge, so you can imagine how welcome that news was.

Jumping off a bridge would qualify as mentally unsound.

He went to THREE Catholic ‘Churches’ asking if they would give him some money to get the fare and they all flatly refused.

Gee. A homeless man who recently jumped off a bridge requests, what, nearly a thousand dollars? And they don’t hand it over immediately? I’m aghast. Utterly aghast.

Just out of curiosity, who else refused him? Why was he just hitting up the Catholic churches? Hmmmm.

They said that the Church does not give out its money because if they gave it to one person, then everyone would ask, and then they would be left with nothing.

Or, for the cost of his international plane fare, they may be able to shelter a hundred families for a night. Or feed a hundred people for a day.

So what they did was to refuse all requests outright.

For free international air fare? It just boggles the mind. How can they be so callous? But then, whose money is it? Who donated it and for what purpose? What are the responsibilities of the stewards of that money?

I deal with many churches, both Catholic and non-Catholic, who provide funds for prescription drugs. Many, many times these prescriptions are a necessity. Many times the patient just received a monthly supply a few days earlier. And they have significant street value. It’s a shame, but it happens.

They wouldn’t even give him the money to go to his grandmothers funeral, but they would spend the money doing up their churches and paying for the members of the clergy who work in there to be well kept!

What does that mean? “Well-kept”? If priests had such a cushy job, there would be applicants lined up around every seminary just hoping to be admitted.

Havn’t they read Jesus’ command to give without expecting anything in return, to use their money to make friends? HYPOCRITES!

Speaking of hypocrites, are you really naked in the library posting these accusations?

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Sheen]

forgiveness:

I met a homeless man today, his grandmother had died a few days ago and he needed money to get to Scotland where she lived in time for her funeral.

Pardon me, but that is just absurd.

I am often hit upon by people who need money for “bus fare” or “gas” or “oil for their car.” Interestingly, one particular guy I can think of is particuarly unfortunate. His car seems to run out of oil frequently – and in the same place! How very odd.

I work in a Catholic school attached to our church. Our pastor is hit up constantly by homeless people for money. They never ask for food or other necessities – it’s always money. Our former pastor was very generous, and consequently, many people became “regulars.” One was given a job helping to paint in the school and ended up ripping off a computer and breaking in after hours and wreaking havoc. When Monsignor had to refuse one particular regular, he went ballistic and had to be removed by the police. We’ve recently had to begin locking our Church doors during the day because these “regulars” were taking up residence in the choir loft and using it for a latrine – after ripping off the poor boxes, of course.

My point is – I take what such people say – their hard luck stories – with a grain of salt. Most are just out looking for drug money or cigarette money. And just for the record, our parish has a very generous ministry to the poor and to those in real need, as I’m sure most parishes do. It is impossible to give to everyone – there simply is no money tree out back to go and pick a few bucks from whenever it’s needed – and expecting $1,000 for a trip to Scotland is a far cry from needing that same money to pay rent, buy food, clothe a child, etc.

While this particular homeless guy might have been telling the truth, to think he is somehow entitled to transAtlantic airfare to attend a funeral is ludicrous. My own father died while I was living in England, and I could not easily afford to get home for his funeral. I didn’t even consider asking my pastor for the money, let alone anyone else. It was all right because my dad wasn’t at the funeral anyway. He was already Home.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

forgiveness:

I met a homeless man today, his grandmother had died a few days ago and he needed money to get to Scotland where she lived in time for her funeral.

---

He went to THREE Catholic ‘Churches’ asking if they would give him some money to get the fare and they all flatly refused.

---

They wouldn’t even give him the money to go to his grandmothers funeral, but they would spend the money doing up their churches and paying for the members of the clergy who work in there to be well kept! Havn’t they read Jesus’ command to give without expecting anything in return, to use their money to make friends? HYPOCRITES!

‘Forgiveness’, Clergy generally have low income. They work much and must always be ready to go to work (a confession, a sick person, etc. etc.). It is not fear to call them hypocrites. Why didn’t you go home and sell your bycycle, your computer, your bed, your familys chairs…, to help this man?

"Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?a 4Or how can you say to your neighbor, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” while the log is in your own eye?b 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye" (Mat 7:1-5).

If someone gives money to church those money are not to help only one man. It is no sin to have churches brushed up. When one owns property, it’s expected that the owner brush up the property from time to time .

I don’t want to be impolite, ‘forgivness’, but it’s true that some people use others for their own benefit, drug-addicts are very clever to do that (because their brain has lost its full moral capasity). Some are “specialists” on making us feel like we are the one with the problems (make us feel so sorry for them that if we had the money, we would have given it, even if that meant that a lot of children had to starve).

May be the man had not got good enough help for his depression (he came from the bridge) or may be he was one of the drug-addicts that had not got the right help. The responsibility to help him lays at the sholulders of the health-department.

But money to go oversees for funerals lays a bit outside the border for how much help one can give to one person.

(Please excuse any spellingmistakes. English is not my first language).

Peace!!!

G.G.