Isn't trying to ban gay marriage forcing our religion on other people?

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Not that I agree or disagree with this, but a friend shared it earlier and I thought it was interesting. Any thoughts?
David Brooks:
Put aside a culture war that has alienated large parts of three generations from any consideration of religion or belief. Put aside an effort that has been a communications disaster, reducing a rich, complex and beautiful faith into a public obsession with sex. Put aside a culture war that, at least over the near term, you are destined to lose.
Social conservatives could be the people who help reweave the sinews of society. They already subscribe to a faith built on selfless love. They can serve as examples of commitment. They are equipped with a vocabulary to distinguish right from wrong, what dignifies and what demeans. They already, but in private, tithe to the poor and nurture the lonely.

nytimes.com/2015/06/30/opinion/david-brooks-the-next-culture-war.html?smid=fb-share
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Midwest88 said:
Because people like birdpreacher who, obvious by the tone of his posts and the language he uses, wants no honest discussion.
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Do you think he’s one of those who have been flooding CA since the Court’s vote? Ah, no -he’s got over 1600 posts. He’s been here for ages.

But did you find anyone who has just called in to gloat since then? Anyone at all…?
 
Bradski said:
Do you think he’s one of those who have been flooding CA since the Court’s vote? Ah, no -he’s got over 1600 posts. He’s been here for ages.

But did you find anyone who has just called in to gloat since then? Anyone at all…?
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No, I don’t think he’s random because his post count says other wise. But he is gloating. And you are. Look at your tone. Look at his tone.

See here a couple of comments here: catholicgentleman.net/2015/06/satan-hates-the-family-heres-why/. See posters “Love Wins” and “Rosa Lin.”

See the comments on this video here: youtu.be/SsrzO-TxOwM

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Here’s an anon stopping by an article here: blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8954608646904080796&postID=2212073618584574174

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I bet there’s more, but I won’t bother to find them. Those were just on the sites I visited in the past few days. I wasn’t even actively seeking such comments out. They just came forth like Venus from the sea. There’s probably a ton on Breitbart.com since is a major attraction to LGBT activists to troll before the ruling.

Please stop acting your side is innocent. It’s rather pathetic that you do. If there’s any side that gloats, it’s your side. I would know - I use to be on your side. I use to be a same-sex “marriage” supporter. You’ll dismiss it as your side always do; you’ll push it under the rug and shrug your shoulders.

Also, like I said, visit the main thread that’s about the Ireland hearing on CAF. There are also posters that have barely posted that have shown up on CAF talking in other threads appealing to “Leave people alone!” It ain’t hard to find. You’re a smart person, I mean you’re an atheist, an amazingly enlightened person not burden by a fictitious Spaghetti Monster.
 
catholic1seeks said:
The point is that the vast majority of people (I’m willing to bet at least 95%) who oppose same-sex marriage and relationships do so because of religiously-motivated reasons.
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So what is your point? Are you trying to say that religiously-motivated reasons are not valid reasons? Are you trying to say that reasons based on the word of God are inferior compared to secular reasoning?
 
Brendan_64 said:
So what is your point? Are you trying to say that religiously-motivated reasons are not valid reasons? Are you trying to say that reasons based on the word of God are inferior compared to secular reasoning?
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Maybe a good reply to your questions is pointing out the subject of this thread:
Isn’t trying to ban gay marriage forcing our religion on other people?
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No, religiously-motivated reasons are not in themselves valid in this context, especially when those reasons propose a law that would affect all people, and specifically when such a law relates to how people are able to love other people.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Maybe a good reply to your questions is pointing out the subject of this thread:
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No, that’s not a good reply at all. We should not go shoving our religion down other people’s throats, but nor should we hide away and pretend we don’t exist. We have been instructed by God not to hide our light under a bushel, but to let it shine for all to see. We are called to proclaim the Gospel to all mankind, and that includes clearly saying that something is wrong when it goes against the word of God.

Right and wrong are not relative. If it is wrong then it is wrong, for all people, whether they believe it to be wrong or not. Trying to stop something that is wrong is simply trying to do what God commands us to.
catholic1seeks said:
No, religiously-motivated reasons are not in themselves valid in this context, especially when those reasons propose a law that would affect all people.
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Yes they are valid. If something is wrong, then it is wrong. Things aren’t wrong because a person believes them to be wrong and not wrong for another person if that person doesn’t believe them to be wrong. Right and wrong are not relative to what a person believes. Truth is absolute and there cannot be two contradictory versions of truth.

Are we not called to proclaim what is true?
 
Brendan_64 said:
No, that’s not a good reply at all. We should not go shoving our religion down other people’s throats, but nor should we hide away and pretend we don’t exist. We have been instructed by God not to hide our light under a bushel, but to let it shine for all to see. We are called to proclaim the Gospel to all mankind, and that includes clearly saying that something is wrong when it goes against the word of God.

Right and wrong are not relative. If it is wrong then it is wrong, for all people, whether they believe it to be wrong or not. Trying to stop something that is wrong is simply trying to do what God commands us to.

Yes they are valid. If something is wrong, then it is wrong. Things aren’t wrong because a person believes them to be wrong and not wrong for another person if that person doesn’t believe them to be wrong. Right and wrong are not relative to what a person believes. Truth is absolute and there cannot be two contradictory versions of truth.

Are we not called to proclaim what is true?
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Beliefs are called beliefs for a reason.

The reason religious reasons in themselves are not valid is because they do not apply to all people; not all people have the same beliefs or have the same faith.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Beliefs are called beliefs for a reason…
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?

Truth is called truth for a reason.

If someone believes that smoking is good for your lungs does that mean that for that person smoking is actually good for his lungs?
catholic1seeks said:
The reason religious reasons in themselves are not valid is because they do not apply to all people; not all people have the same beliefs or have the same faith.
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The truth applies to all people. If someone believes something that contradicts the truth then they are wrong. The truths of the Gospel are not relative, the do not only apply to Christians, they apply to all mankind.

Christ commanded us to make disciples of all nations, to proclaim the Gospel to the world. He didn’t tell us to keep it to ourselves.

The bottom line is that truth is truth, and it applies to all people whether they realise it or not. It is our job to help others realise the truth.

And as for “forcing our religion on others” what do you think is happening with the secular agenda? You just need to switch on your TV, listen to the radio, read the newspapers to see how that agenda is being foisted upon us all. It is even being enshrined in law so that people will be fined and possibly imprisoned if they do not go along with this agenda. Who is forcing what on who here? Are we just to keep our faith to ourselves, keep it out of the public arena, don’t try to proclaim it to others and don’t act upon it? While the opposing agenda is being promoted widely, shouted from the rooftops and being enshrined in law?
 
Brendan_64 said:
The truth applies to all people.
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Who decides what the truth is with regards to the moral law. For example, if a married couple have seven children, according to the Roman Catholic teaching it is morally wrong for the woman to take the birth control pill. But according to many other religions, and even most American Catholic women, it is not morally wrong. Who decides the truth with respect to artificial birth control? In Euclidean geometry, the base angles of an isosceles triangle are equal, and everyone will agree that is true. If truth is based on the natural law, and the natural law is natural to everyone, why is there such widespread disagreement on the truth about the morality of married women using the birth control pill?
 
Brendan_64 said:
?

Truth is called truth for a reason.
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Unfortunately “Truth” (observing the capitalization that you used) still seems to often be in the realm of opinion. By which I mean that it seems to be indicative of people of certain dispositions and often times escapes metrics , independent verification, and so on. Depending on your usage it may cause confusion. Some use the word only to label the evaluation of a proposition. Used with a capital T it is often used to mean something different than that.
Brendan_64 said:
If someone believes that smoking is good for your lungs does that mean that for that person smoking is actually good for his lungs?
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I read this and I think about when it was argued that lead in gasoline didn’t cause health problems. Today I think most of us today see lead as something that could have a negative impact on us. This view wasn’t as common place back when leaded gasolines and paints were common. During the debate for this if some one were to have said

“It’s the Truth that lead actually does cause health problems”

and stop there then there’s not a lot of progress made. There was additional work that had to be done to make a convincing case and persuade others that it caused health problems. After the persuasion we see changes in regulations restricting the usage of leaded gasoline and the removal of lead from other products.
Brendan_64 said:
The bottom line is that truth is truth, and it applies to all people whether they realise it or not. It is our job to help others realise the truth
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Quite right. But people’s decisions probably more influenced by what they think to be true more than what is true irrespective of what whether or not people know it. If it is the case that what people think to be true isn’t what is actually true then it may be necessary for someone to present a convincing presentation to correct this misalignment.
 
Tomdstone said:
Who decides what the truth is with regards to the moral law.
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Moral law is comes from God. Moral law is not created by man. So how does God communicate moral law to men? Through the Church that He created when He was here on Earth in the person of Jesus. The Church cannot err on issues of faith and morals, therefore what the Church teaches on morals is moral law, truth. This truth does not depend upon who, or how many people, believe in it. Truth is absolute, truth cannot contradict itself, there cannot be two opposing versions of truth.
Tomdstone said:
For example, if a married couple have seven children, according to the Roman Catholic teaching it is morally wrong for the woman to take the birth control pill.
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That is correct.
Tomdstone said:
But according to many other religions, and even most American Catholic women, it is not morally wrong.
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Truth is not determined by a majority vote.
Tomdstone said:
Who decides the truth with respect to artificial birth control?
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God does, and He communicates His moral law through the teachings of the Church. The Church cannot err with regard to issues of faith and morals.
Tomdstone said:
why is there such widespread disagreement on the truth about the morality of married women using the birth control pill?
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If there is disagreement on what is truth, then some of these people will be wrong. Truth is absolute and is not determined by what people think about the issue. Moral law comes from God and is communicated to mankind through the teachings of the one true Church that He founded.
 
ThinkingSapien said:
Quite right. But people’s decisions probably more influenced by what they think to be true more than what is true irrespective of what whether or not people know it. If it is the case that what people think to be true isn’t what is actually true then it may be necessary for someone to present a convincing presentation to correct this misalignment.
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Absolutely right. It is our job to try to convince people of the truth of the Gospel and how this is communicated through the Teachings of the one true Church, founded, not by men, but by Christ Himself. But we are not called simply to present our case using secular arguments, we must base our arguments on our faith and not be afraid to proclaim as such.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Moral law is comes from God. Moral law is not created by man. So how does God communicate moral law to men? Through the Church that He created when He was here on Earth in the person of Jesus. The Church cannot err on issues of faith and morals, therefore what the Church teaches on morals is moral law, truth. This truth does not depend upon who, or how many people, believe in it. Truth is absolute, truth cannot contradict itself, there cannot be two opposing versions of truth.
That is correct.
Truth is not determined by a majority vote.
God does, and He communicates His moral law through the teachings of the Church. The Church cannot err with regard to issues of faith and morals.
If there is disagreement on what is truth, then some of these people will be wrong. Truth is absolute and is not determined by what people think about the issue. Moral law comes from God and is communicated to mankind through the teachings of the one true Church that He founded.
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Even a large percentage of Roman Catholics do not believe that it would be wrong for a married couple with seven children to use artificial birth control. In Euclidean geometry, everyone agrees that the base angles of an isosceles triangle are equal. Why is there so much disagreement on the question of artificial birth control. And what is the truth regarding other moral issues, like burning someone alive at the stake for heresy? It is right to do this or wrong?
 
Ben_Sinner said:
First let me start off. I don’t condone gay marriage at all. I believe its a grave sin and invalid.

But doesn’t the Church teach that we shouldn’t force our religion on people…

Isn’t that what we are doing when we are so forceful to ban gay marriage (civil, not sacred) just because its against our religious beliefs?

I’m wondering when the line is crossed? You know what I’m saying?
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The way I see it is that marriage has been about having babies for thousands of years, and not just in the Christian religion. Suddenly, our courts want to redefine marriage to be something it has never been before down through history. Just as gay sex is unnatural, so is gay marriage. I am not at all against granting civil rights to gay couples, such as inheritance rights, but I am against calling it marriage. We are approaching a time where a priest refusing to marry a gay couple will be hauled into court and charged criminally for refusing the gay couple their rights. Now, that will be the state forcing, or trying to force, a priest to act against his conscience. It’s an affront to religious liberty, not the forcing of a religious view on others.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Truth is absolute and is not determined by what people think about the issue. Moral law comes from God and is communicated to mankind through the teachings of the one true Church that He founded.
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What is the truth regarding the morality of burning people alive at the stake?
 
Tomdstone said:
What is the truth regarding the morality of burning people alive at the stake?
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This was not part of Catholic moral teaching. There has always been wrong acts carried out by individuals within the Church, even with the approval of the Church hierarchy. Humans do wrong things. But burning people at the stake was not part of the Deposit of Faith.
 
Brendan_64 said:
This was not part of Catholic moral teaching.
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in the Papal Bull, Exsurge Domine, this statement was condemned along with a bunch of other ones:

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

“[condemned] 33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.”

But why or in what aspects was that sentence condemned?

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
 
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