Israel 'ready for escalation' of Gaza conflict

[Exiled_Child]

camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2650

This site explains how this movie basically distorts the issue and totally ignores the role of Islam in the Israeli- Palestine issue. Basically it’s anti- Israeli propaganda you’ve linked to. The larger question is why do so many in the west - including many Catholics ignore the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers which want to destroy it. I would like to know why so many Catholics take such an anti- Israel view.

Ishii

ishii, I’ve seen the film in question and it is most definitely not anti-Israeli propaganda. The fact is, it presents such a damning and impossible to refute picture of reality that Israel has no way to criticize it other than to call it “anti-Semitic.” And 99 out of 100 times, when that tactic is employed, it simply means that the person or group throwing around the phrase “anti-Semitic” has tacitly acknowledged that their argument is thoroughly bogus. The woman who made the film is highly intelligent and her movie reflects that. (And by the way, I should add that this film is absolutely pertinent to the subject of this thread.) In my opinion it would be fair to say that the Palestinian people are among the most patient, forgiving and easy going people anywhere on Earth. If any other group of people had to put up with what they put up with there is not the slightest chance in hell that they would be so incredibly peaceful about it. For anyone to try to distort this truth with media is beneath contempt.

 

[Exiled_Child]

What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to justify killing little children?

I find it hard to fathom.

 

[St_Francis]

ishii, I’ve seen the film in question and it is most definitely not anti-Israeli propaganda. The fact is, it presents such a damning and impossible to refute picture of reality that Israel has no way to criticize it other than to call it “anti-Semitic.”

If you had read the article, you would have seen that they did not once say the movie was anti-semetic, and they offered cogent arguments against what the people in the film were saying…

…so we can disregard what you have said here.

The woman who made the film is highly intelligent and her movie reflects that. (And by the way, I should add that this film is absolutely pertinent to the subject of this thread.) In my opinion it would be fair to say that the Palestinian people are among the most patient, forgiving and easy going people anywhere on Earth. If any other group of people had to put up with what they put up with there is not the slightest chance in hell that they would be so incredibly peaceful about it. For anyone to try to distort this truth with media is beneath contempt.

You might look into precisely why the Palestinians are suffering what they suffer. Starting with: did you know that in the years after the founding of Israel, slightly more Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab nations than Palestinians displaced (at the behest of those se Arab nations)? Where are all those camps for displaced Jews? Why are there still camps for the now-descendants of displaced Palestinians?

And why did Israel build the wall? Why the blockade?

 

[St_Francis]

What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to justify killing little children?

I find it hard to fathom.

What kind of mentality does it take to launch rockets from a school?

 

[ishii]

ishii, I’ve seen the film in question and it is most definitely not anti-Israeli propaganda. The fact is, it presents such a damning and impossible to refute picture of reality that Israel has no way to criticize it other than to call it “anti-Semitic.” And 99 out of 100 times, when that tactic is employed, it simply means that the person or group throwing around the phrase “anti-Semitic” has tacitly acknowledged that their argument is thoroughly bogus. The woman who made the film is highly intelligent and her movie reflects that. (And by the way, I should add that this film is absolutely pertinent to the subject of this thread.) In my opinion it would be fair to say that the Palestinian people are among the most patient, forgiving and easy going people anywhere on Earth. If any other group of people had to put up with what they put up with there is not the slightest chance in hell that they would be so incredibly peaceful about it. For anyone to try to distort this truth with media is beneath contempt.

You know, every time I bring up the very real issue of all the Islamic states wanting to destroy Israel you ignore that point. What do you think Israel is supposed to do laydown their arms and be destroyed? I do not think you can refute this point, Which I will state again: if the Palestinians lay down their arms if Hamas withdrew from Palestine and quit attacking Israel there would be peace at least between Israel and Palestine. Israel would not occupy Palestine. However, if Israel disarmed they would be destroyed.

Anyway, regarding the movie, it ignores the larger role of Islam and perpetuating this conflict and wanting to destroy Israel. The movie ignores that, and apparently so do you. The question is why?

Ishii

 

[TheAdvocate]

I already posted on this thread video footage of Hamas firing from a school and from a cemetery.

UNRWA condemns placement of rockets in school.

It is extremely unfortunate that Hamas and the Moslem terrorists in general continually launch rockets from civilian-occupied spaces, but until they start acting in accord with international law, what can Israel do?/QUOTE]

Civilian occupied spaces? Gaza is one of the most densely packed places on Earth! All of Gaza is civilian occupied! Perhaps there would be more space there if Israel removed their illegal settlements from the West Bank. By the way, settling your own people in a territory you’ve occupied is also against international law.

Both sides are extremist, both sides are part of the problem, not only the radicalized Palestinians (aka Hamas).

 

[ishii]

St Francis;12226585:

I already posted on this thread video footage of Hamas firing from a school and from a cemetery.

UNRWA condemns placement of rockets in school

.

It is extremely unfortunate that Hamas and the Moslem terrorists in general continually launch rockets from civilian-occupied spaces, but until they start acting in accord with international law, what can Israel do?/QUOTE]

Civilian occupied spaces? Gaza is one of the most densely packed places on Earth! All of Gaza is civilian occupied! Perhaps there would be more space there if Israel removed their illegal settlements from the West Bank. By the way, settling your own people in a territory you’ve occupied is also against international law.

Both sides are extremist, both sides are part of the problem, not only the radicalized Palestinians (aka Hamas).

Gee, maybe if the radicals in Palestine did not use their territory to stage attacks on Israel then there would not be this conflict.

Ishii

 

[TheAdvocate]

Israel’s military declares dead soldier who was believed captured by Hamas cbsn.ws/1rXQ1rh

Well, well, well…it turns out he wasn’t captured after all. That’s funny, Israel even got Obama to demand his release. The cease-fire was broken because of his “capture.” Hmm, I wonder what else Israel is lying about as a pretext.

bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-01/obama-demands-return-of-captured-israeli-soldier.html

All along Hamas said they didn’t have him. Does Hamas lie? Yes. But so does Israel.

By the way, when the cease fire was broken because of the “capture” I suspected it was a lie. If they didn’t know his whereabouts, why not simply declare him missing? Why the false accusation? Oh, I know…it’s better to make up a story so the cease fire can be broken. And the media bought it! Obama bought it! I didn’t.

 

[Kurisu35712]

Well, well, well…it turns out he wasn’t captured after all. That’s funny, Israel even got Obama to demand his release. The cease-fire was broken because of his “capture.” Hmm, I wonder what else Israel is lying about as a pretext.

bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-01/obama-demands-return-of-captured-israeli-soldier.html

All along Hamas said they didn’t have him. Does Hamas lie? Yes. But so does Israel.

By the way, when the cease fire was broken because of the “capture” I suspected it was a lie. If they didn’t know his whereabouts, why not simply declare him missing? Why the false accusation? Oh, I know…it’s better to make up a story so the cease fire can be broken. And the media bought it! Obama bought it! I didn’t.

If I read the articles regarding that event accurately, the ceasefire wasn’t broken because the soldier was captured, the ceasefire was broken because that soldier’s group was attacked by a suicide bomber. He was just the only one who survived to BE captured.

 

[trdchubi]

What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to justify killing little children?

I find it hard to fathom.

According to The Institute for Palestine Studies, Hamas used child labor to build terror tunnels. **At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels **according to Hamas officials"

I find it hard to fathom as well.

 

[Exiled_Child]

If you had read the article, you would have seen that they did not once say the movie was anti-semetic, and they offered cogent arguments against what the people in the film were saying…

You might look into precisely why the Palestinians are suffering what they suffer. Starting with: did you know that in the years after the founding of Israel, slightly more Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab nations than Palestinians displaced (at the behest of those se Arab nations)? Where are all those camps for displaced Jews? Why are there still camps for the now-descendants of displaced Palestinians?

And why did Israel build the wall? Why the blockade?

There is Israeli criticism of the film which describes it as “anti-Semitic.” Also, ishii earlier, in post #772, personally snubbed me by insinuating that anyone who criticizes Israel is racist. No, he didn’t use those precise words, but the meaning is clear enough. Rather than stoop to responding to such nonsense directly, I referenced it in regards to his description and characterization of the film. As far as Jews being expelled from Palestine/early Israel, yes, that definitely was a big deal. The Jews who were originally in Palestine were primarily Sephardic as well as anti-Zionist. Additionally, they got along very well with their Palestinian friends and neighbors because they had been living peacefully together basically forever. The Ashkenazi Zionists didn’t like this, so they kicked them out. This is all historical fact, and to this very day there are Jewish groups highly critical of Israel because of it. There are also Jewish Christians and Palestinian Jews who are critical of Israeli persecution and subjugation of Palestine. There are many different groups involved in this whole mess, and it’s a mistake to call everyone anti-Israeli aggression “anti-Semites.” It’s a distortion, an over-simplification and a cop out; it’s far, far more complicated than that. I encourage you to read those Einstein letters I linked to earlier. He understood all of this, and he spelled it out in no uncertain terms.

 

[Coatimundi]

According to The Institute for Palestine Studies, Hamas used child labor to build terror tunnels. At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels
The Institute for Palestine Studies did count at least 160 child deaths during tunnel construction. However, it was for construction of smuggling tunnels into Egypt, not the so-called terror tunnels to Israel.

Quoting from the IPS report:

As noted above, the government increasingly consolidated its hold on revenues over time. Following the 2007 takeover of the Strip, the Interior Ministry reasserted Hamas government control over the commercial tunnels in place of the IQB. From then on, the ministry not only regulated the tunnels but also took charge of collecting the tunnel revenues, depositing them directly into its own account to cover its budgetary expenditures. While any excess funds were transferred to the central government, other ministers grumbled that the Interior Ministry’s prior claim on tax receipts was less than satisfactory.
…
A similarly cavalier approach to child labor and tunnel fatalities damaged the movement’s standing with human-rights groups, despite government assurances dating back to 2008 that it was considering curbs. During a police patrol that the author was permitted to accompany in December 2011, nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies. At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials. Safety controls on imports appear similarly lax, although the TAC insists that a sixteen-man contingent carries out sporadic spot-checks.

All told, the tunnels have been a mixed bag for Hamas. While its detractors praise—albeit begrudgingly—its success in reducing the impact of Israel’s stranglehold, perceptions of corruption inside the organization have intensified. During the renewed fuel shortages of spring 2012, there were widespread allegations that Hamas leaders received uninterrupted electricity and that gasoline stations continued to operate for the exclusive use of Hamas members. True or not, they fed a growing mood of recrimination that Hamas had profited from the siege.
palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=11424&jid=1&href=fulltext

 

[Exiled_Child]

According to The Institute for Palestine Studies, Hamas used child labor to build terror tunnels. **At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels **according to Hamas officials"

I find it hard to fathom as well.

Well, when I see someone on CAF defending Hamas I’ll be sure to point that out.
So far I haven’t seen any, however.

 

[TheAdvocate]

By “jettisoning” I just meant that the Israeli narrative should be completely ignored, and the Hamas narrative should also be completely ignored. Jettison as in, throw it overboard and get all of the lies completely out of our heads.

Something tells me you would probably enjoy this video. It’s a 60 Minutes show on Palestinian Christians. I personally found it eye opening. It’s from 2010, but it’s still relevant to the current military attacks against the Palestinian populace:

cbsnews.com/news/christians-of-the-holy-land/

Wow, thanks for sharing the video, a really great story. In it, by the way, the Palestinian Christians—encompassing about a dozen different religious denominations and rites—are calling upon the world to boycott Israel while the occupation is going on.

Keep in mind that they are closest to the situation and they understand the politics 100x more than us on these boards.

They also call upon the Palestinians to engage in non-violent resistance to protest the loss of their lands.

 

[TheAdvocate]

You know, every time I bring up the very real issue of all the Islamic states wanting to destroy Israel you ignore that point. What do you think Israel is supposed to do laydown their arms and be destroyed? I do not think you can refute this point, Which I will state again: if the Palestinians lay down their arms if Hamas withdrew from Palestine and quit attacking Israel there would be peace at least between Israel and Palestine. Israel would not occupy Palestine. However, if Israel disarmed they would be destroyed.

Anyway, regarding the movie, it ignores the larger role of Islam and perpetuating this conflict and wanting to destroy Israel. The movie ignores that, and apparently so do you. The question is why?

Ishii

Since the West Bank is more or less the ancient Judea and Samaria, I do not see Israel willfully withdrawing even if all terrorist actions cease. The problems is, there is too much radicalism on both sides; radicals on both sides want ALL of the land to themselves.

This is obvious on the Hamas side, with the “death to Israel” chanting. Radical Israelis are the same, but they do it differently: they just slowly build more and more settlements on the West Bank, in defiance of international law. The 60 Minutes video posted above shows a priest who says that in the occupied territories themselves, it could compared to Swiss cheese: the Israelis get the cheese, and the Palestinians get the holes.

 

[graciew]

camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2650

The larger question is why do so many in the west - including many Catholics ignore the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers which want to destroy it. I would like to know why so many Catholics take such an anti- Israel view.

Ishii

Ishii, it is very difficult if not impossible for one person to represent the West , Catholicism, what Catholic people in West know or ignore about Israel 's political and geographical situation so as to attempt to help you find an answer.

Could you break down your questions into more specific ones?

What do you mean by anti-Israel ?

Thank you

 

[trdchubi]

The Institute for Palestine Studies did count at least 160 child deaths during tunnel construction. However, it was for construction of smuggling tunnels into Egypt, not the so-called terror tunnels to Israel.

… and we assume that child labor and deaths, after hamas took control of the tunnels, did not reoccur after they continued connecting this system of tunnels towards Israel?

And do you think hamas will allow an exclusive use of these tunnels for humanitarian reasons only? If you have a goody good terrorist on the helm, this might be the case, but it’s hamas.

Where do you think those Iranian Fajr-5 missiles, Syrian made M-302 missiles, Russian shoulder-launched RPG-29 to name a few, went through? Right, it came through the Egyptian side of the tunnel which makes it a terror tunnel as well.

By the way this children are heavily indoctrinated with terrorist propaganda and were brainwashed to think evil of the Jews and Israelis. This are no more children but adults and should be treated as one.

Again who is the culprit in this child abuses? Is it Israel’s fault?

 

[GaryTaylor]

What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to justify killing little children?

I find it hard to fathom.

The terrorist kind that straps explosives on them and sends them into civilian areas. The kind who are banned and labeled in several countries like Hamas is as a terrorist group. The kind who detonate themselves up at public events like the Boston Marathon.

Documented terrorists.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHamas&ei=bzjfU7mdLYPE8QGBlYDwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFyQGFzFkQXoHY_fa3YZLJps2obig

Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US, EU, Canada and Japan due to its long record of attacks and disregard for civilians.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This kind…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

I’m glad we reached this point of the conversation of what kind of people would do this. I found a few hundred terrorist links for Hamas.

39.9 percent of the suicide attacks were carried out by Hamas,

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEMQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-middle-east-13331522&ei=BEHfU4HnLKiV8gHHwoHYCg&usg=AFQjCNFOGQAAG4D2aEjxnloQC7NLaTSY3w

Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by under the group’s charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel.

And of course we all know the tunnels used into Jerusalem have no purpose but to kill civilians Hamas terrorism but again.

The humanitarian media crisis stems from the above.

 

[Tomdstone]

Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by under the group’s charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel.
.

Well then, kill the people leading Hamas. But don’t kill children sleeping in UN safety facilities and don’t kill children in schools, and don’t kill children in hospitals, and don’t kill children playing on the beach!