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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
At this point I would then say that we are in agreement on all except for one thing. This juror’s opinion is in favor of Pope Pius XII.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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AlanF
Guest
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
Lapide. who’s study of Jews saved by efforts of the Catholic Church from the Nazis is the most cited source–my understanding is that Lapide did have a lower number of only 500,000 as a conservative estimate, but considered 800,000 as a more likely figure. Per David Dalin (The Myth of Hitler’s Pope, 2006) Lapide’s estimates have been peer-reviewed from the 1960s and no serious challenges to those numbers have appeared.
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chosen_people
Guest
Being of Polish extraction and such an avid historian as well as being so anxious to belittle the holocaust into just another event in which people lost their lives perhaps you would like to detail July 4 1946 Kielce Poland in order that everyone can truly understand.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Please point out to me where I have belittled the holocaust. I have said all along that it was horrific and diabolical. 6 million Jews died as a result. Please in your omniscience tell me where I belittled it. I merely ask that you and others be aware that it was not only the Jews who were murdered horribly. You are the one who seems to forget the others. Not I.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Lev23
Guest
Can you tell me why there are many people in the world today that teach the Jewish holocaust never happened but they recognize every other attrocity done to all other peoples? Why is it the murder of the Jews that is downplayed or flat out denied so much?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the most popular one today. He held a denial conference of the holocaust once, but it was sad that 6,000,000+ Jews could not attend.
If the Jews were not the #1 target of Nazi murder, why did the Nazis have to deport all the Jews they could off the Greek Island of Rhodes to concentration camps? Wasn’t there bigger fish to fry for the Nazis, like trying to win WW2? These Jews were on an island, which meant the Nazis went through all types of trouble to get them off it by boat and on to land for the 1500+ mile rail trip to concentrations camps. Quite a momentous effort of manpower and resources just to move some civialians around, eh? They were not politically adversaries to the Nazis and were in no way of threat militarily. They lived peacefully among others on the island, including Muslims.
They Nazis went through all that trouble just because they were Jews.
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st_lucy
Guest
This is not true! Everyone for the very few do remember this horrific event and we are contently told - AND RIGHTFULLY SO.- But there where and are many more events that have been forgotten or uncared about. For instance did you know that the Nazi’s were not the only ones wrecking havoc on another group of people during WWII? Not even close The Rape of Nanking is thought as the single worst atrocity during the World War II. And where are the Chinese when someone - or reality the whole world has forgotten it.
The fact is the Nazi’s were bad people who hated number one the jews, second anyone of minority or undisirable - the handicapped- and than anyone who opposed them. Hitler and his goones wanted the world to be German. So to say that only Jews where the target is a riduculious statement at the least. And to state that anyone here has down played this event is also riduculious.
So lets get back on topic.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
There are only two reasons I can think of for this. One is Satan. The other is hate. Not being one who hates people of any ethnicity, I do not understand this. The only other reason remaining is Satan. He knows we are all children of God and because of his implacable hatred for God, he tries to divide his children. I am sure you have heard the phrase, “A house divided cannot stand.”
Please - I cannot explain the mind of one possessed of a fanatic hatred for all non-Muslims. I place him in the same category with Hitler. I cannot explain them. I pray for them. I pray that all men will turn to God and reject hatred and everything that goes with it.
No one denies this. Just remember that those non-primary targets are just as dead. I acknowledge all that the Nazis did to the Jews. I have never denied or belittled it or tried to diminish it. They, the Jews, however, were not the only ones. All the others are just as dead. They should not be forgotten either. To me, what was done to the Jews is so obvious, it cannot be denied by any rational person. Just as you and I do not want this forgotten, I also do not want the others forgotten.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Valke2
Guest
Many jews gave the Pope credit for saving lives where the credit should have gone to individual priests and nuns. Jews naturally assumed that whatever a priest or bishop did, they did under the Pope’s directive. This was not true. Many acts of heroism were individual acts which Jews gave the Pope credit for.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Just as he received the blame for many things he did not do.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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AlanF
Guest
Many Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, this at least must have been under the Pope’s directive. Whether you say he was personally responsible for the saviour of the other Jews or not, we cannot say from this that Pius was an unholy man.
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Lev23
Guest
I am aware of these atrocities. But the difference between the Jews situation and the others was the Jews plight was waved in all the nations faces before and during the holocaust. Like the Greek Island of Rhodes situation, many Jews were deported off of the island in ships and no allied forces intervened to stop this.
By the way, the other difference is the Jews are the people whose forefathers preserved the sciptures that people out of all nations put their faith in today.
I never said the Jews were the “only” target of the Nazis, just #1. Their persecution started way before WW2.
I never said anyone on this thread has downplayed this event. But statements like, “not only the Jews were murdered” actually are appreciated by those who downplay and deny the Jewish holocaust.
To get back on topic, it is safe to say not ONE sovereign nation did “all they could” to sacrifice their own well being to help the Jews escape the clutches of Nazism. Hitler even tried to sell Jews off, but there was not one taker from ANY of the nations.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
I have seen no one on this thread downplay the holocaust. in addition, my question is where is throwing all this blame going to take us. It is over, thank God. My trying to blame this or that person or nation for not doing enough is not going to make anyone come back. It may make some feel better in a sense of self righteousness. But what does that accomplish?. Few if any here today are to blame. Throwing blame to try and make one feel guilty because you think someone almost 65 years ago did not do enough is counterproductive. We all agree, hope and pray that this will never happen again. But open your eyes. Look at the rise of radical Islam and how it is spreading all over the world. This will be our next big problem. In fact it is already here. With weapons of mass destruction, it will make WWII seem like child’s play. How will that be addressed?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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chosen_people
Guest
As to your remarks concerning “throwing blame” please see threads on this forum and others regarding my “responsibility as a Jew” in the death of one Yehoshua bar Yosef.
Indeed by not examining actions against Jews and others we can only “hope and pray” that we will learn nothing from them and be destined to be repeat them
How outrageous of myself or others to even suggest that total silence of a religious leader of hundreds of millions, at a time when many of those same adherents were actively participating in the genocide while many other of his adherents were actively working to save Jewish lives, was the only moral course to follow. Pius XII silence in the face of such injustice was and is something that was totally unacceptable.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
bolding = mineAs to your remarks concerning “throwing blame” please see threads on this forum and others regarding my “responsibility as a Jew” in the death of one Yehoshua bar Yosef.
Indeed by not examining actions against Jews and others we can only “hope and pray” that we will learn nothing from them and be destined to be repeat them
How outrageous of myself or others to even suggest that total silence of a religious leader of hundreds of millions, at a time when many of those same adherents were actively participating in the genocide while many other of his adherents were actively working to save Jewish lives, was the only moral course to follow.** Pius XII silence in the face of such injustice was and is something that was totally unacceptable.**
You again state he was silent. I deny he was silent and did nothing. To have spoken out against the regime in a vocal manner would have brought devastation on many more. As it was, hundreds of thousands and perhaps more were saved because of what was quietly done behind the scenes. If you cannot accept that, than to discuss this with you further would be a waste of your time and mine. I am not want to go that route. You too will remain in my prayers. Please keep me in yours.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Kaninchen
Guest
That assertion would need some establishing.
Which ‘hundreds of thousands’, where and how? I mean, it must be possible to ‘find’ them somewhere and explain just how Pius ‘saved’ them.
Are we then to just let all these assertions stand unexamined; are we to just ‘believe’ because you say so? Is nobody to question the actions or inactions of Pius and accept everything just because Catholic apologists say so?
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Ag_not
Guest
This response is offensive in the extreme. The post was NOT dismissing the Holocaust - and it’s a FACT that millions, many millions of others suffered and died horrific deaths APART from the jews
I can trace a line of my very complicated family history to Jasenovac, where it promptly ended! The Romani tragedy hasn’t even been studied properly until recently.
How dare you heighten the plight of one tragic group over another. My family, because they were Romani, were Ghetoised, sterilized, subjected to the Nuremberg laws also, and shipped to camps specifically for extermination. We know just about everything that happened to the Jews in Europe over that horrific period, but a lack of proper analysis and study of the plight of the Romani means noone is too sure how many actually died. I wonder why that might be? Some sources estimate at almost 2,000,000. Romani are still more stigmatised today than Jews. Can you see any european leader, in 2008, calling for all Jews to be fingerprinted, just because they are Jews? Naw, I didn’t think so! Jews do not have the monopoly on suffering.
Get over yourself.
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chosen_people
Guest
Throughout the centuries groups have people have been killed for religious, ethnic, political reasons or as the result of war. During the Crusades tens of thousands of Jews were massacred. The Spanish Inquisition involved 140 thousand Jews and brought to an end over one thousand years of Jews living in the Iberian peninsula. The Nuremberg laws, stripping Jews of all civil and legal rights, making them wear identifying clothing to mark them as Jews and making them live in ghettos are a rehash of Papal laws concerning Jews in the Papal states. Some one third of the Jewish population died in uprisings against the Roman empire in the first two centuries of the common era. Non of these acts against the Jews may be described as a Holocaust against the Jews. Similarly, massacres of other groups. for instance the Armenian massacres, even seemingly similar, should not be referred to as “the Holocaust”.This response is offensive in the extreme. The post was NOT dismissing the Holocaust - and it’s a FACT that millions, many millions of others suffered and died horrific deaths APART from the Jews
I can trace a line of my very complicated family history to Jasenovac, where it promptly ended! The Romani tragedy hasn’t even been studied properly until recently.
How dare you heighten the plight of one tragic group over another. My family, because they were Romani, were Ghetoised, sterilized, subjected to the Nuremberg laws also, and shipped to camps specifically for extermination. We know just about everything that happened to the Jews in Europe over that horrific period, but a lack of proper analysis and study of the plight of the Romani means noone is too sure how many actually died. I wonder why that might be? Some sources estimate at almost 2,000,000. Romani are still more stigmatised today than Jews. Can you see any european leader, in 2008, calling for all Jews to be fingerprinted, just because they are Jews? Naw, I didn’t think so! Jews do not have the monopoly on suffering.
What was unique about the Holocaust was two fold. First it was genocide. In other words it was a decision not “just” to kill Jews but to bring about the entire elimination of all Jews. The final solution. Secondly, it began in peace time against loyal German Jewish citizens, who had fought in Germany’s wars, were professors and scientists and philosophers, making great contributions to German society and who posed no threat what so ever to any one or anything.
Finally, the silence of Pius XII is not just about its effect on the Jews. It should have been a message to all Catholics, not only to those helping to save Jews but also to those participating in acts against the Jews.
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Shoshana
Guest
There was also a Holocaust of the christians back in the day…thousands were slaughtered and were fingerpointed as such to be killed. Those very same christians were catholics who were fed to the lions, burnst alive, torn limb by limb, cooked in oil, and many untold atrocities.
How many? There was no census to count them all… There were herded in the many areas, like the Collisseum. Any who helped save them were also killed. Does this sound familiar?
Many Jews themselves were killing christians, and the christians (catholics0 were hated by the Jews as much as by the Romans. Sound familiar?
How many? There was no census to count them all… There were herded in the many areas, like the Collisseum. Any who helped save them were also killed. Does this sound familiar?
Many Jews themselves were killing christians, and the christians (catholics0 were hated by the Jews as much as by the Romans. Sound familiar?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Hey, the Romans were equal opportunity killers but, perhaps, you’d like to give estimates of the comparative numbers of Christians fed to the lions and Jewish deaths by Roman hands in the first couple of centuries of the ‘Common Era’.
And the sources of all this information are?
Good defense of Pius XII though, Jews helping Romans feed Catholics to the lions - that’ll work.
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