Issue on campus about standing during the Consecration

[Corki]

Dear Rich, SFO

Contrary to your statement regarding the GIRM & RS the Bishop can “override” / implement directives in his own diocese. As well as religious houses can and do operate under their own Customary and this chapel that is in question belongs to a college which is operated by the Dominicans.

Br Mark, OSB

Where in the OP did you get that it was the Bishop who dictated this variation? I looks to me like this is the personal choice of either the priest or the litugical planner.

Neither did the OP make any reference to the Dominicans. What document can you cite that says that the Domincans can disregard the GIRM other than at Masses said in community?

I disagree with your idea of the Bishop being able to over ride an official Church document. RS (issued by the Pope’s authority) is very clear that priests nor Bishops can make changes to the Mass on their own initiative. This is why there is a process to request a variation as was done for the US regarding kneeling for the whole Eucharistic Prayer and after the Agnus Dei.

 

[VociMike]

Dear Rich, SFO

Contrary to your statement regarding the GIRM & RS the Bishop can “override” / implement directives in his own diocese. As well as religious houses can and do operate under their own Customary and this chapel that is in question belongs to a college which is operated by the Dominicans.

Br Mark, OSB

And yet the authority of the bishop is not without limit, is it? Can the bishop “override” anything and everything in the liturgy?

 

[hamburglar]

Okay, let me clear things up.

The Bishop never gave permission for us to stand. It is the norm in our diocese to kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen, and also after the Lamb of God.

Regarding someone saying something about the Dominicans: My college was founded by the Dominican sisters. There is very little Dominican presence here anymore, besides the fact that we are “rooted in the Dominican charisms.” Don’t get me wrong, we still learn with a strong support in the Faith and all that good stuff. We have a few teachers here that are Dominican sisters, but that’s about it. The college does not have a permanent priest. We have retired priests and random ones celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with us.

The chapel itself is not a parish in the Diocese. I believe that technically, the college’s official parish is the one that is right next door.

It seems that the major concentration in this issue is the unity of the faithful during the celebration. It seems that some people say that I should not kneel because I am drawing individual attention to myself.

Besides the issue about if it was acceptable to declare that the posture for the Consecration is standing, the issue arises if it is okay to go against the crowd and kneel anyway.

 

[Brendan]

If you want to personally kneel, then go right ahead. In all the temporary setups I have been in, standing is the better viable option under the physical circumstances and that is what is encouraged, but not required.

In the end of if you are kneeling or not, the spiritual part of that segment of the mass is not lost on anyone attending.

Why is it the “better viable option”, does it show more adoration to God, which is about the only thing we should be concerned with

When we look to the example of the saints, what would Mother Theresa do if there were no kneelers at a Mass, how about St. Therese of Liseux?

Is a little bit of extra discomfort in our lives something not worthy of God?

So why should it be encourged at all, because the GIRM says so ( It doesn’t). We are supposed to kneel if there is nothing there to prevent us. So if there is nothing between you and the floor, kneel.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Why is it the “better viable option”, does it show more adoration to God, which is about the only thing we should be concerned with

When we look to the example of the saints, what would Mother Theresa do if there were no kneelers at a Mass, how about St. Therese of Liseux?

Is a little bit of extra discomfort in our lives something not worthy of God?

So why should it be encourged at all, because the GIRM says so ( It doesn’t). We are supposed to kneel if there is nothing there to prevent us. So if there is nothing between you and the floor, kneel.

In these temporary cases it is the Bishop’s right to allow for a variance due to the conditions. It was the case in the two major examples in my life when this happened. One temporary location was a student union lecture hall where kneeling was impossible anyways. The other was the church basement with folding chairs. There was also not enough space due to the crowd control spacing (and probably some fire codes).

If you personally want to kneel, go ahead and do it, but in temporary circumstances like these it is no less “proper/pius/holy” to stand. What matters is in your heart more than anything during the mass (even more so for those who are physically unable to do it). Kneeling has just been the usual way of doing it.

 

[benedictgal]

In these temporary cases it is the Bishop’s right to allow for a variance due to the conditions. It was the case in the two major examples in my life when this happened. One temporary location was a student union lecture hall where kneeling was impossible anyways. The other was the church basement with folding chairs. There was also not enough space due to the crowd control spacing (and probably some fire codes).

If you personally want to kneel, go ahead and do it, but in temporary circumstances like these it is no less “proper/pius/holy” to stand. What matters is in your heart more than anything during the mass (even more so for those who are physically unable to do it). Kneeling has just been the usual way of doing it.

I have always knelt, whether or not there is a kneeler, because kneeling is the proper posture. NewULM, what’s wrong with kneeling on a bare floor? I’ve even seen people prostrate themselves during the Consecration while attending Mass at a local monastery. You just seem to like to post just for the sake of posting. The rubrics don’t seem to matter to you.

Again, I cite what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said about kneeling. Perhaps you didn’t bother to read his statement:

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

And, further along in the text, he writes:

For me, the most important passage for the theology of kneeling will always be the great hymn of Christ in Philippians 2:6-11. In this pre-Pauline hymn, we hear and see the prayer of the apostolic Church and can discern within it her confession of faith in Christ. However, we also hear the voice of the Apostle, who enters into this prayer and hands it on to us, and, ultimately, we perceive here both the profound inner unity of the Old and New Testaments and the cosmic breadth of Christian faith.

The hymn presents Christ as the antitype of the First Adam. While the latter high-handedly grasped at likeness to God, Christ does not count equality with God, which is His by nature, “a thing to be grasped”, but humbles Himself unto death, even death on the Cross. It is precisely this humility, which comes from love, that is the truly divine reality and procures for Him the “name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Phil 2:5-10).

Here the hymn of the apostolic Church takes up the words of promise in Isaiah 45:23: “By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear’”. In the interweaving of Old and New Testaments, it becomes clear that, even as crucified, Jesus bears that “name above every name” – the name of the Most High – and is Himself God by nature. Through Him, through the Crucified, the bold promise of the Old Testament is now fulfilled: all bend the knee before Jesus, the One who descended, and bow to Him precisely as the one true God above all gods. The Cross has become the world-embracing sign of God’s presence, and all that we have previously heard about the historic and cosmic Christ should now, in this passage, come back into our minds.

The Christian Liturgy is a cosmic Liturgy precisely because it bends the knee before the crucified and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture - the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos

That is why kneeling is so very important and it is a rubric that must be preserved.
If you still have issues regarding kneeling, then take it up with HIs Holiness.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

In these temporary cases it is the Bishop’s right to allow for a variance due to the conditions. It was the case in the two major examples in my life when this happened. One temporary location was a student union lecture hall where kneeling was impossible anyways. The other was the church basement with folding chairs. There was also not enough space due to the crowd control spacing (and probably some fire codes).

If you personally want to kneel, go ahead and do it, but in temporary circumstances like these it is no less “proper/pius/holy” to stand. What matters is in your heart more than anything during the mass (even more so for those who are physically unable to do it). Kneeling has just been the usual way of doing it.

The thing I don’t get is that the Bishop does not need to “allow a variance” because it’s already in the Norms. If you personally are unable to kneel because of space or some other SERIOUS reason. There is no obligation to do so at that Mass. You don’t need the permission of anyone.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The thing I don’t get is that the Bishop does not need to “allow a variance” because it’s already in the Norms. If you personally are unable to kneel because of space or some other SERIOUS reason. There is no obligation to do so at that Mass. You don’t need the permission of anyone.

I think that most Bishops leave the decision making process up to the priest who is saying the Mass, trusting that the priest will follow the rubrics as best as possible.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

I think that most Bishops leave the decision making process up to the priest who is saying the Mass, trusting that the priest will follow the rubrics as best as possible.

Jim

I don’t think so, Jim. The norms are very clear that kneeling is the posture for the faithful during the Consecration. Sometimes I wonder what you have against rubrics. Even though you don’t outright say it, many of your posts seem to have a rebellious spirit that seems to trivialize and relativize the norms

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t think so, Jim. The norms are very clear that kneeling is the posture for the faithful during the Consecration. Sometimes I wonder what you have against rubrics. Even though you don’t outright say it, many of your posts seem to have a rebellious spirit that seems to trivialize and relativize the norms

As some else has already posted, the rubrics state that there may be times and places where kneeling may not be conducive and standing would be proper. According to the rubric, it may be that the Bishop leaves it up to the discretion of the celebrant.

Jim

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I have always knelt, whether or not there is a kneeler, because kneeling is the proper posture. NewULM, what’s wrong with kneeling on a bare floor? I’ve even seen people prostrate themselves during the Consecration while attending Mass at a local monastery. You just seem to like to post just for the sake of posting. The rubrics don’t seem to matter to you.

Again, I cite what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said about kneeling. Perhaps you didn’t bother to read his statement:

And, further along in the text, he writes:

That is why kneeling is so very important and it is a rubric that must be preserved.
If you still have issues regarding kneeling, then take it up with HIs Holiness.

Actually, this falls into the local variance in what I posted to you in another thread. In real life there are the rules and the best way to implement them real life. Real life in the discussed cases do not allow for kneeling due to the local space. It does not invalidate anything in the mass, or is a “thumbing nose at Rome” it is adapting best to the circumstances in front of you.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

As some else has already posted, the rubrics state that there may be times and places where kneeling may not be conducive and standing would be proper. According to the rubric, it may be that the Bishop leaves it up to the discretion of the celebrant.

Jim

And all the celebrant can do is convey that if you are unable to kneel after the Holy, Holy until the Great Amen, you are not required to. Then he must follow the Bishops directive for the posture after the Lamb of God. Either everyone in the diocese kneels (with the same individual exception as before) after the Lamb of God or everyone stands.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, this falls into the local variance in what I posted to you in another thread. In real life there are the rules and the best way to implement them real life. Real life in the discussed cases do not allow for kneeling due to the local space. It does not invalidate anything in the mass, or is a “thumbing nose at Rome” it is adapting best to the circumstances in front of you.

This is one of those instances where local variances do not exist. It’s aleady spelled out in the GIRM. Or, do you have something against rubrics and norms, as seems indicative of most of your posts?

 

[bpbasilphx]

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

Let those who wish to kneel kneel and those who wish to stand stand–and let there be no bickering on the matter!

 

[benedictgal]

What are everyone’s thoughts on this?

Let those who wish to kneel kneel and those who wish to stand stand–and let there be no bickering on the matter!

This issue is quite different than the one another thread had raised regarding kneeling for communion. The GIRM specifically states that kneeling is the posture for the laity during the consecration. It is not an optional posture like that for receiving Holy Communion. While the USCCB has adopted “standing” as the norm for receiving Holy Communion in the United States, documents issued from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments have re-affirmed that kneeling is a viable option.

I don’t know what people have against following norms. The Mass is not a do-it-yourself thing. It is the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[benedictgal]

Cardinal Arinze makes a very telling statement on this issue (as appeared in the Adoremus bulletin):

Can they kneel during the consecration?

The rule from Rome would sanction where the bishops said, “in our country we want people to kneel throughout the consecration”. From our office in Rome we will support that. So it is a bit different. But sometimes during the consecration – suppose it is open-air or it rained and it is muddy – you could not kneel there. But in the normal church it is possible to kneel.

And that’s the normal thing: to kneel during the consecration – and even, as in this country, to kneel from the beginning – just before consecration – right down to just before the Our Father. And that is okay.

Where a particular person cannot kneel – you have arthritis or you are a mother holding a baby – that is understood.

Cardinal Arinze calls kneeling during the Consecration a “normal” thing. What is happening at hamburglar’s chapel is “abnormal”, to say the least. Sometimes I think that we have lost our sense of reverence and respect for the Divine Majesty of God.