Issues other than abortion

[VanitasVanitatum]

I’ll look at the statistics and respond later.

 

[MamaJewel]

“Choice” implies that it isn’t necessary though, so it’s much more prudent to err on the side of the life that’s potentially being put up on the chopping block.

Those very words you stated can be applied to the pregnant woman as well. It’s her life that is literally on the chopping block when carrying a pregnancy to term and during post-partum recovery. Women have to “heal” from the pregnancy process, even those that don’t result in a new, living human being.

Pregnancy may be a natural process, but it isn’t a safe one. We expect women to access medical care during pregnancy, labor, delivery, and post-partum because the process is dangerous and at times, lethal. I don’t think people are glossing over the issue.

As far as a viable fetus is concerned, the state has the responsibility to set laws into place to protect the common good of those in society. It goes both ways. Women who are using their bodily autonomy to bring a new life into the world have the right to feel safe and trust that they and their fetus-hopefully soon-to-be neonate is getting the best medical care available. Pregnant women trying to achieve positive outcomes don’t get the warm fuzzies at the thought of an unwanted fetus in the next room over being discarded on a whim.

 

[Vonsalza]

DNA shows that there is another person involved. It is used to indentify specific people at crime scenes.

As to the mix up, you also said that the infant didn’t have autonomy, but it does have self determination.

About crime scenes - sure. We’re typically talking about people who have been meaningfully separate from their mothers since birth.

And no, infants have improved autonomy and determination. They breathe, cry when hungry, start smiling. They’re people in a way a fetus is not.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

We really should err on the side of choice.

“Choice” implies that it isn’t necessary though, so it’s much more prudent to err on the side of the life that’s potentially being put up on the chopping block.

On a side note, i think people would think things through more carefully if everyone didn’t stick to the catch phrase to describe abortion that’s become so popular, and allows so many people’s minds to gloss over the issue. Choice. Maybe it’s just too late at night for me right now but it blows me away that people can say and think and believe that with a viable baby “we really should err on the side of just letting a person make the choice of whether to kill the baby or allow it to live”.

I understand how you feel.

But it also blows me away that someone thinks a woman somehow owes the risks of pregnancy and, ideally, the burdens of child rearing to something she may not even want.

Nutso.

I could understand your position better if they aborted into hell, but they don’t. They abort into the apex of earthly joy.

They could (and probably would) do a lot worse…

But that’s just an interesting aside. The primary concern we can’t lose sight of is simply that women must retain their bodily autonomy. No one has the right to make them do something with their own bodies that they don’t want to do.

 

[laylow]

She can absolutely exercise her agency to prevent harm to her own self. And make no mistake, pregnancy is destructive to the female body. Occasionally it’s lethal, even in the US.

We don’t have a right to force a reluctant woman to experience that peril.

It also could loosely compared to the self defense argument. The woman has the right to defend herself against the ongoing "attack. "

 

[leonhardprintz]

Ironically I’ve seen pro-lifers who would choose gun-rights over pro-life. Namely if they had a choice between a ban on abortion the way we dream of it happening, or keeping the 2nd Ammendment, many would consider the 2nd Ammendment more important.

 

[Vonsalza]

Ironically I’ve seen pro-lifers who would choose gun-rights over pro-life. Namely if they had a choice between a ban on abortion the way we dream of it happening, or keeping the 2nd Ammendment, many would consider the 2nd Ammendment more important.

Oh man, don’t get me started.

The second amendment, as a means to check government tyranny, became largely irrelevant when the modern tank was invented.

Only in America do a bunch of middle-aged white dudes (like me) think owning an AR-15 somehow protects them from the government when our own armed forces routinely stomp much better-armed foes into the sand…

 

[Elf01]

But it also blows me away that someone thinks a woman somehow owes the risks of pregnancy and, ideally, the burdens of child rearing to something she may not even want.

And I think that’s the difference between a pro lifer and a pro abort. We don’t see the fetus as a something, we see him/her as a someone who has the right to not be killed - the same as everyone else.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

But it also blows me away that someone thinks a woman somehow owes the risks of pregnancy and, ideally, the burdens of child rearing to something she may not even want.

And I think that’s the difference between a pro lifer and a pro abort. We don’t see the fetus as a something, we see him/her as a someone who has the right to not be killed - the same as everyone else.

First, it’s not pro-life vs pro-abort. Every abortion is tragic.

It’s pro-life vs pro-choice.

Moving on, I think the biggest difference is that you completely ignore the woman involved. Her will isn’t even considered. It’s out of consideration for the mother that we must choose choice.

 

[Elf01]

I think the biggest difference is that you completely ignore the woman involved. Her will isn’t even considered.

No, we do consider the woman. We just don’t think killing an unborn child is any more acceptable than killing a born child.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I think the biggest difference is that you completely ignore the woman involved. Her will isn’t even considered.

No, we do consider the woman. We just don’t think killing an unborn child is any more acceptable than killing a born child.

Fair enough, if you’re willing to own the idea that women should be forced against their will to carry a baby to term, regardless the lasting effects and possible peril, that’s very honest of you.

It’s just that so few pro-lifers are honest about the enslavement they endorse.

 

[Elf01]

Fair enough, if you’re willing to own the idea that women should be forced against their will to carry a baby to term, regardless the lasting effects and possible peril, that’s very honest of you.

I don’t know if I’ve said it, but the circumstances where I’d condone separating my conjoined twins (i.e. the twin who would otherwise survive is at high risk of death), are the circumstances where I would condone delivering a baby. I certainly support treatments that will make pregnancy lower risk to life or health of the mother (balanced with potential risk to the baby) and if the mothers life was in danger would support doing whatever is necessary to save it.

 

[Vonsalza]

I don’t know if I’ve said it, but the circumstances where I’d condone separating my conjoined twins…

I’m not going to get involved with your “what ifs” because everyone has them.

The odds of conjoined twins are roughly 1 in 100,000. Any rule that holds only 99.999% of the time is what I call a darn good rule in this world.

 

[Brendan_64]

the literal enslavement and oppression of women is exactly what you’re advocating.

So the right to kill your unborn child is necessary in order not to be oppressed and enslaved? Freedom depends upon being able to kill another human being, and your own offspring at that? What sort of emancipation is that?

What of all the little girls killed by abortion? What of their freedom (and that of the little boys also killed)?

 

[Vonsalza]

So the right to kill your unborn child is necessary in order not to be oppressed and enslaved?

Again, given the certain damage and possible risks (some mortal) that a woman exposes herself to during an unwanted pregnancy?

-Absolutely. If she doesn’t want to do that, no one has the right to force her.

Freedom depends upon being able to kill another human being

While the personhood of a fetus isn’t in doubt by you, it is in doubt for most folks. What is certain is that whatever personhood it may enjoy does not override a woman’s right to control her body.

What of all the little girls killed by abortion? What of their freedom (and that of the little boys also killed)?

It’s tragic, no doubt.

But on the up side, we can think of all the women who saved themselves from poverty by not having a poorly timed child. We can think of all the drops in crime in major cities roughly 17-19 years after Roe v. Wade because the next generation of criminals had likely been aborted (unwanted children tend to contribute to social problems).

These don’t justify abortion. A woman’s control over her body does. But there likely are positive societal benefits from it.

 

[JimG]

We can think of all the drops in crime in major cities roughly 17-19 years after Roe v. Wade because the next generation of criminals had likely been aborted

So we have had a generation or more of children who have received the death penalty pre-emptively for crimes they might have committed had they been allowed to live?

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

We can think of all the drops in crime in major cities roughly 17-19 years after Roe v. Wade because the next generation of criminals had likely been aborted

So we have had a generation or more of children who have received the death penalty pre-emptively for crimes they might have committed had they been allowed to live?

You stopped reading too early.

These don’t justify abortion. A woman’s control over her body does. But there likely are positive societal benefits from it.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

We’re typically talking about people who have been meaningfully separate from their mothers since birth.

That doesn’t overide what the DNA says which is that they are not the same person.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Within reason. If you bump into me and I kill you would that be justified?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

And no, infants have improved autonomy and determination. They breathe, cry when hungry, start smiling. They’re people in a way a fetus is not.

The fetus can react to things too.